Israel torturing Palestinians in Gaza

to be fair, it was not until western countries got involved that muslims began to campaign for the genocide of jews. The muslim holy city of jerusalem was taken away and given to people that they had oppressed (although the oppression was civil, more monetary and social, than violent)

and the muslims made thier choice, when israel was formed, to be violently opposed, and began a cycle of violence that continues today... the problem is that children grow up infused with this fear/hatred/ignorance of the other people, and cannot see past it to see what most civilized other people see as meaningless violence...

another problem is that the left wingers have taken up the cause of the palestinians, giving them hope that they can have israel back, and this has just caused more violence, and left the israelis feeling alienated by the un and europe, so they turn to america for help, and muslims already dont like our american culture, so its just compounding the hatred

personally, i really dont see any solution other than one day everyone wakes up and realizes that it is possible to tolerate other people despite different race/ethnicity/religion

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
And you refuse to admit that the "Palestinians" are capable of doing anything wrong, except to be the victim. And, you refuse to see that the Arabs refuse to assimilate the "Palestinians", who are actually members of those groups, such as Syria and Jordan.

They refuse to accept them because they refuse to be complicit with the Israeli ethnic cleansing.

The Palestinians are still on the same land as they were before Israel invaded in a sneak attack back in 1967.

Yes, they were part of those nations, and the land was not part of Israel then nor is it now.

You seem to imply that they should go to those countries instead of Israeli going home and staying there.

I make it clear that it is the "Jewish" Israelis because Israel doesn't make it a law that one has to be Jewish to be Israeli.

Completely false!

You must be Jewish to become an Israeli citizen, and many non-Jewish Israelies are refused re-entry after they leave the country even if only on vacation.

Israel is a racist state.

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Israel invaded in a sneak attack back in 1967.

ArchAngel, this is wrong

has been explained to you several times ( last time here, less than 20 days ago).:

Here's a quick summary of some of the major events leading up to the Six-Day War



and Here is Seekerofs posting dt 12-12-2005 on page 4 of this thread

1967 Arab-Israeli war + pre-emptive strike + 1967
define:pre-emptive strike
States have the right to make pre-emptive strikes on others
The Legality of Preemptive or Preventive Counterproliferation Strikes

Originally posted by ArchAngel

You must be Jewish to become an Israeli citizen

And that is also wrong, as I already told you (less than 30 days ago here)


Israel's Nationality Law relates to anyone wishing to settle in Israel, as well as those already residing or born there, regardless of race, religion, creed, sex or political beliefs.

Citizenship may be acquired by:

Birth

The Law of Return

Residence

Naturalization



[edit on 4-1-2006 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
By the way, you cite info from 1988 to 1992, during the uprising. Of course, you seem to forget the fact that today, after the Gaza was handed over to them, the "Palestinians" lob rockets at the Israelis from the new land.
Twist as you may, you are obvious.

Those rockets are nothing but glorified fireworks, and you know that. That is no justification for the shelling of gaza, the collective punishment and the restriction on movement the Israelis push onto the Palestinians.

I think while there are jews in Israel there will never be peace there, because to the Jews we are subhuman, gentile. They believe God promised them Israel, tho does god do anything to give it them? Jews are the true terrorists on this globe, because to them we are subhuman, not worthy of living. Of course you wont hear them talking like that in public, but thats how they believe.

Rwika, weve been through the whole cause of the 6 day war with ArchAngel before. He wont see the pre-emptive strike as legitamate no matter what you throw out, so I wouldnt waste your time. You presented it well though.

As for how Israels youth are taught about arabs, arabic is a required language in their schools, they are all taught to speak it.
Isreals education
and the portrayal of Jews and Israelis in Palestinian textbooks.
Arab Education

Granted it is an Israeli website and some will cry bias, I had a good one a while back that had actual quotes from Israeli and Arab textbooks, that wasnt biased, it was a side by side type comparison. I will look for it again, if anyone can help me I would appreciate it, its been tough looking for it so far.

Originally posted by ludaChris
Rwika, weve been through the whole cause of the 6 day war with ArchAngel before. He wont see the pre-emptive strike as legitamate no matter what you throw out, so I wouldnt waste your time. You presented it well though.

So Israel where under direct threat when they attacked? Kind of like Iraq and the 45 minute lie right?

Israel wasnt going to be attacked, it was just another lie in a long list of jewish lies. Israel has never been happy with the land it has been wrongfully given, and it wont be happy until it controls most of the ME (which hopefully will be never.)

Rwika, weve been through the whole cause of the 6 day war with ArchAngel before. He wont see the pre-emptive strike as legitamate no matter what you throw out, so I wouldnt waste your time. You presented it well though.

Unlike you I understand the history from many different perspectives.

Israel did not stand up and say 'Hey, we're attacking now!"

When they bombed the Arab airforces as they sat on the ground that was a sneak attack.

It may be that a pre-emptive attack is legitimate, but stealing land is not.

My statement was accurate.

You may not like the spin, but what would one expect from Zionists????

Originally posted by Riwka

Originally posted by ArchAngel

You must be Jewish to become an Israeli citizen

And that is also wrong, as I already told you (less than 30 days ago here)


Israel's Nationality Law relates to anyone wishing to settle in Israel, as well as those already residing or born there, regardless of race, religion, creed, sex or political beliefs.

Citizenship may be acquired by:

Birth

The Law of Return

Residence

Naturalization

PLEASE provide a source for this.

It is an outright lie.

Do some research and get back to reality

Israel is a racist state that only allows Jews to immigrate.

Yes it was a sneak attack, but it was righteous. If you cant see that, then you are blind. Forces were amassed on 3 sides of them from 5 countries, now, why would Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia be doing that? I dont think it was en exercise. It wasnt a joke. Oh wait, yes they were going to attack! Not to mention when Egypt set a naval blockade on the straights of Tiran, which in itself is an act of war. Whether you put it sneak attack of per-emptive strike, doesnt matter, it was justified. Lets move on, youve had your word, Ive had mine. Lets get back to topic.

As for youre statement about Israel not being happy until they control most of the middle east. Thats bogus, why did they give back land they had occupied if they wanted more land so bad. It wasnt a trick, but a concession towards peace, but yet again rocket attacks come into Israel from land theyve given back. Your point is moot.

[edit on 1/4/2006 by ludaChris]

Originally posted by ArchAngel

PLEASE provide a source for this.

It is an outright lie.

Do some research and get back to reality

It is my big pleasure to provide the source for what I wrote once more (is this the 10th time this year?) to you:

external image

Acquisition of Israeli Nationality


.

Originally posted by ludaChris
Yes it was a sneak attack, but it was righteous. If you cant see that, then you are blind.

If they had only defended it would have been righteous, but the continued occupation for two generations, and establishemt of settlements prove the results to be aggressive, not defensive.

It was an aggressive, Pre-Emptive, Sneak Attack.

Where is the precedant for taking land in a war where you attacked first?

You are blind if you cannot see that four million people under foreign military occupation, and denied citizenship is a problem.

Try to clear your mind, and put the shoe on the other foot. If you were Palestinian would you sympathize with yourself, or the Israeli occupiers?

The reality on the ground today for the average Palestinian is that they are not free, and Israel is resposible for denying them freedom.

>>>Forces were amassed on 3 sides of them from 5 countries, now, why would Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia be doing that?

Because Israel had refused to allow Palestinians who were expelled from Israel to return to their land.

The Right of Return was conditional on Israel joining the UN.

Yes, they likely would have attacked, but that does not give Israel the right to Palestine today.

>>>I dont think it was en exercise. It wasnt a joke. Oh wait, yes they were going to attack! Not to mention when Egypt set a naval blockade on the straights of Tiran, which in itself is an act of war. Whether you put it sneak attack of per-emptive strike, doesnt matter, it was justified.

The attack was justified, but actions beyond their borders after the end of hostilities was not justified.

NOTHING gives you the right to steal land from your neighbors, especially if you took it when you invaded in a sneak attack.

>>>As for youre statement about Israel not being happy until they control most of the middle east. Thats bogus,

It part of the religion....They belive God gave it to them....You are being silly and you know it.....

Genesis 15:18
It was on that occasion that the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I give this land, from the Nile of Egypt to the Great River (the Euphrates),

Eretz Israel HaShlema / Greater Israel
.......
The settler movement Gush Emunim, founded in 1974, replaced the legal term "State of Israel" with the biblical term "Land of Israel" (Eretz Israel), which justified the settlement of the territories in the name of a special alliance between God and the Chosen People. They consider Zionism a process of cosmic redemption. According to the Gush the advent of the messiah would be delayed if the land were returned to non-Jews. Rahavam Ze'evi, the leader of Ihud Leumi (National Union Party), has advocated the "transfer" -- a polite term, in the opinion of some detractors, for forced expulsion of all Palestinians from Greater Israel. The vast majority of the Israelis who go to live in Hebron follow the ideology of "Eretz Israel Hashlema".

>>>why did they give back land they had occupied if they wanted more land so bad. It wasnt a trick, but a concession towards peace,

It was a trick. Israel has reserved the right to re-occupy, and has recently redeployed forces along the Egypt border.

They did not 'give back' the land, they simply withdrew from most of it.

>>>but yet again rocket attacks come into Israel from land theyve given back. Your point is moot.

The rocket attacks only reinforce my point.

They are not liberated in Gaza, and the millions in the other occupied lands are no better off while Israel continues building new settlements, and destroying Palestinian homes, and farmland.

Great injustice still exists, but you won't say one single word about it other than to excuse it, and what is the excuse for denying millions of people their freedom for two generations, 'They knew they were going to be attacked'.

Do you really believe the entire chain of your rationalizations?

Originally posted by Riwka

It is my big pleasure to provide the source for what I wrote once more (is this the 10th time this year?) to you:

external image

Acquisition of Israeli Nationality

If you read it do you even understand it?

Lets take a closer look at it, and understand what it means in application today.

Acquisition of nationality by birth

This is pretty straight forward, and to be expected.

Jews, Muslims, Christians, and anyone else are Israelies if born to an Israeli parent.

Acquisition of Nationality according to the Law of Return

This is racist to the core.

The Law of Return allows only Jews to immigrate.

Acquisition of Nationality by Residence

This applies to everyone that resided in Mandate Palestine before the 1948 war and in Israel until 1952.

The kink in this is that Israel did not allow the non-Jews who fled in fear of their lives to return to their homes and their land.

Right of Return for the non-Jews, which was one of the conditions for Israel to become a UN member, has never been honored.

Acquisition of Nationality by Naturalization

This gives the Jewish Minister of the Interior the power to grant citizenship almost with a free hand.

So you can only be an Israeli citizen if you or your parents did not flee before the Stern Gangs reign of terror in fear of your life.

Or if the Jewish Minister of the Interior says so.

Or if you are Jewish.

No non-Jews immigrate, even if they had lived in what is today Israel during the British Occupation, and even owned land there.


ONLY JEWS CAN IMMIGRATE


How can you say with an honest face that this is not discriminatory?

You only proved me right with that link.

[edit on 4-1-2006 by ArchAngel]

You really don't want to go down this particular road, Archangel, and you know it if you are an Arab and have the first clue. If you are simply an ignorant anti-Semite, I just might take the time to catalogue the racist and xenophobic history of the Arab nations, and how they, unlike Israel, oppress beliefs and ways unlike their own. I assure you, you'd prefer me not do that. Try another avenue.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You really don't want to go down this particular road, Archangel, and you know it if you are an Arab and have the first clue. If you are simply an ignorant anti-Semite, I just might take the time to catalogue the racist and xenophobic history of the Arab nations, and how they, unlike Israel, oppress beliefs and ways unlike their own. I assure you, you'd prefer me not do that. Try another avenue.

Don't ever think you know me.....

I welcome all this long and winding road has to bring. Please continue.

No, I am not an Arab.

No, I am not an Anti-Semite.

My grandmother was a Sephardic Karaite Jew, and I loved her dearly.

I am against Zionist Extremism, but whats so wrong with being against hate, discrimination, and denialism???

Anything you post about racism in other nations does not defend Israels racism.

You are implying that an established dichotomy excuses wrongs, which it did not.

I expect you to continue ignoring the evils Israel is guilty of, but don't expect me to fear anything you have to say.

Try to research more, and include references when you make wild claims like the ones I have debunked in the past.

[edit on 5-1-2006 by ArchAngel]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You really don't want to go down this particular road, Archangel, and you know it if you are an Arab and have the first clue. If you are simply an ignorant anti-Semite, I just might take the time to catalogue the racist and xenophobic history of the Arab nations, and how they, unlike Israel, oppress beliefs and ways unlike their own. I assure you, you'd prefer me not do that. Try another avenue.

Yeah because Jewish religion doesnt teach that all non jews are sub human... I suppose the settlements built on Palestinian stolen land is completly moral? I guess the illegal walls which trap the Palestinian, stopping them from working and travelling are moral too? the truth is Israel treates the Palestinian as 2nd class citizens while crying victim to the west.

Now since you dodged Archangels post and resorted to insults could you answer his post? Do you think those rules are not racist? Do you think Palestinians should have the right to travel back to the place they where born?

[edit on 5-1-2006 by HiddenReality]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You really don't want to go down this particular road, Archangel, and you know it if you are an Arab and have the first clue. If you are simply an ignorant anti-Semite, I just might take the time to catalogue the racist and xenophobic history of the Arab nations, and how they, unlike Israel, oppress beliefs and ways unlike their own. I assure you, you'd prefer me not do that. Try another avenue.

Again with that "anti-Semite" word. Why don't YOU deny ignorance and realize that ARABS are Semitic people too. Come on, try it now, it won't hurt.

BTW, I'm not surprised that everyone's all over Israel's jock, AGAIN. But don't worry, others and I here will continue to criticize this nation; it's led by racist (that's right) zionists, it's a big player in the sex slave trade, it slaps arounds a 3rd world country with 1st world tech and weapons, and sponsors terrorism.

Again with that "anti-Semite" word. Why don't YOU deny ignorance and realize that ARABS are Semitic people too. Come on, try it now, it won't hurt.

Its what Zionists always fall back on when the truth exposes the fraud of their propaganda.

Always pointing the finger of blame calling hate when you have no defense is not a tactic of innocent victims.

But the brutal acts against the Palestinians have nearly dried up the sympathy for the Israeli Jews so maybe there is hope for a righteous solution..

Originally posted by ArchAngel
I am against Zionist Extremism, but whats so wrong with being against hate, discrimination, and denialism???

There is nothing wrong with it, as long as one is objective in the handing out of hypocritical condemnations, which is so blatantly obvious that you are not doing. Furthermore, denialism is a two way street, ArchAngel, that oftens tends to merge with other 'isms'. Heres a thought, practice what you preach? Lead by example? Others may follow....?





seekerof

[edit on 5-1-2006 by Seekerof]

There is nothing wrong with it, as long as one is objective in the handing out of hypocritical condemnations, which is so blatantly obvious that you are not doing. Furthermore, denialism is a two way street, ArchAngel, that oftens tends to merge with other 'isms'. Heres a thought, practice what you preach? Lead by example? Others may follow....?

Here is another thought.

Why don't YOU practice what you preach?

Why don't you only post pro-Palestinian, and Anti-war articles and statements at ATS?

After a week or so I too will only post the opposite of my beliefs[just to keep you honest of course].

Deal?

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Why don't YOU practice what you preach?

I do. Yet to see you do likewise.

Why don't you only post pro-Palestinian, and Anti-war articles and statements at ATS?

There will be no only, but I have posted pro-Palestinian and antiwar materials and made like commentaries. Though they may be few and far inbetween, it has been done by myself during my course and time as being a member within ATS, whereas, you simply continue down your singular path. Use the ATS search feature, ArchAngel.

After a week or so I too will only post the opposite of my beliefs[just to keep you honest of course].
Deal?

You seek a deal?
Highly doubtful such a one will take place, but thank you for considering and offering such. The key here is not a deal forcing one do what one is not accustomed to doing, it is you voluntarily taking the intiative to be objective in your hypocritical condemnations of Israel, something you are subjectively and habitually not accustomed to doing. Understand?







seekerof

[edit on 6-1-2006 by Seekerof]