Evolution is a Religion.

Toltec
Again forming the same reaction that occurred which is postulated, in respect to how life originally formed is very simple.

Well Toltec since you know the facts, why don't you just write them down and collect your million dollars:

www.us.net...

If you have read the link provided, you would have seen that current theories of abiogenesis have serious defects that need to be addressed:

www.yfiles.com...

If the current theories on abiogenesis were free of technical issues, then there would be no $1,000,000 prize to come up with a new one. Here is your chance to be a millionaire. As for life on other worlds, it is still a far cry from "beyond a resonable doubt". All you got is the assertion that out of all the billions of worlds there has to be life on some other planet. So far we haven't found it.

See link...

leiwenwu.tripod.com...

Bottom line, science is not a religion; its methodologies are made to search for truth not react to issues as if they are Irrefutable.

Any thoughts?


[Edited on 4-10-2003 by Toltec]

Good article Toltec:

"The theory of evolution, rather than being monolithic, infallible truth, is really a jumble of conflicting and ever-changing sub-theories, as the Miller-W�chtersh�user controversy demonstrates."

In either case....your still looking at a "chance" happening or occurrence of 1 in a billion, give or take a few million, here and there....? The word used is "can" equating to uncertainty, "chance", not happening, etc.


regards
seekerof

So what else is new, the link at www.yfiles.com blew big gaping holes in Miller's hypothesis and work. It also shows the flaws in W�chtersh�user�s theory. Hence the million dollar prize for a new theory for abiogenesis. Here is your chance to be a millionaire.

Jagd, the topic of this thread is "Evolution is a Religion", if you wish to post a topic related to your theory my advise is that you post it as a new topic.

Which for the record I will join



[Edited on 4-10-2003 by Toltec]

Quote from Seekerof
Seems to me that Evolution deals with more than just "any process of growth, change or development."
If this is so....and portions of it does deal with "biological" and "common descent," then it also deals with, ultimately, with 'origins.'

Eventually all evolutionary theories must deal with the origins of life. Just starting at some point of "common descent" leaves the important question unanswered. Secondly I don't have a theory, I was looking for technical anwers for a technical question from an informed person rather than having smoke blowed at me. If the theories can't answer my question, then they have a serious flaw.

Quote from Toltec
Actually with respect to definition the primordial soup in which amino-acids form can be made at home if one is so inclined. Then of course there is Europa and Titan, which very likely have life (Specifically with respect to moons in orbit about Jupiter and Saturn). If memory serves there is one other moon in which the process began for life while Jupiter was still hot (the remnants of that event still clearly visible via satellite), though its name escapes me at the moment.

Jagd, the reality is that life forms in this universe under the correct conditions, this pertaining to temperature, gravity and environment in general, this fact has been proven beyond any shadow of doubt. The argument that it can be defined, as a miracle is weak, simply stated, life forms as a result of the laws of physics.

To be specific and with respect to the primordial soup, all that is needed for it to form are the right conditions which essentially are found on earth, that is a fact.

That is what I was referring to; the moon I mentioned does in fact exist and was photographed by the satellites, which have been sent to Jupiter (well documented). As far as Titan and Europa the likelihood of life is extremely high.

Again forming the same reaction that occurred which is postulated, in respect to how life originally formed is very simple.

Given the amount of stars in the Universe there are probably as many planets in the Universe with life as there are people on earth.

Will say this again feel free to begin your own topic

Hey seekeroff, with respect to probabilities and from what I understand life forming to the extent it has formed on earth, requires ideal conditions. Beyond the issues of religion and its real intent, we exist because the conditions just happen to be ideal.

Again, unless the term theorem is applied by those who chair the proper departments (and as well for very good reasons), the constructs discussed (causes) are merely theories.

Evolutionary theory is theory and to be very honest, so as well is the existence Of God (or for that matter the idea that God does not exist).

Personally, I do take into consideration the matter of time reversed EPR, in respect to the potential of quantum computers, as well as the issue of punctuated equilibrium, in regards to God, but that is another topic.

Patients is a virtue Seekeroff and in this case my impression is, in this case, you have established it is a virtue you know very well.

Any thoughts?

[Edited on 4-10-2003 by Toltec]

Evolution is an act within nature, which does have some hard evidence of its occurence. Evolutionism is the religion or belief that evolution is the only explanation for all the different forms of life on earth.
Evolutionism has never and will never be proven any more than creationism will be.

I think that a person who believes in such a doubtful religion is really grasping for straws. I know that as a practicing, Bible believing Christian, I have a great deal of faith. For instance, I know that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, lived here on Earth, died for my sin, and was resurrected. I also know, like I know the map of my own hand, that He will return again. Now, my hope is that it will be during my life time, but I know it will happen. But where evolution is built on suppositions without any evidence at all, I have a book, called the Bible, which has been proven to be ancient. That book has prophecies, many of which have been proven by their fulfillment with many more to be fulfilled in the future, and that, might I add, is more scientific than evolution...."

The author of this quote is just the pot calling the kettle black. He is asserting that he "knows" the Bible is true, because it's ancient and some of it's prophecies have been fullfilled (which is a matter of opinion). In a post I made on the thread, www.denyignorance.com... I made the below statements. I think that they are relavent to this topic as well.

originally by Jezebel
... to deny the slightest possibility that someone else's belief may actually be the correct one is just self-protective denial. The notion that the religion (including atheism) one is willing to sacrifice everything for, may not be the right one, is simply not an option for most people. To be able to maintain one's personal faith and also recognize that there are an infinite number of possibilities in the end, forces one to examine the depths of themselves to find out if what they believe is really felt or if someone just brainwashed them into believing...I think that if people would start to ask themselves "What if?" then maybe all the judgment and hate we keep throwing at each other would cease to exist. No one should ever forget that no matter if they believe in God, no God, evolution or creation, it is ALL based on the FAITH that THEY are correct. It is arrogant and short-sighted to assume you are right at the cost of rejecting others for making the same assumption.

"originally by Jezebel
... to deny the slightest possibility that someone else's belief may actually be the correct one is just self-protective denial. The notion that the religion (including atheism) one is willing to sacrifice everything for, may not be the right one, is simply not an option for most people. To be able to maintain one's personal faith and also recognize that there are an infinite number of possibilities in the end, forces one to examine the depths of themselves to find out if what they believe is really felt or if someone just brainwashed them into believing...I think that if people would start to ask themselves "What if?" then maybe all the judgment and hate we keep throwing at each other would cease to exist. No one should ever forget that no matter if they believe in God, no God, evolution or creation, it is ALL based on the FAITH that THEY are correct. It is arrogant and short-sighted to assume you are right at the cost of rejecting others for making the same assumption."

Yes, Jezebel, in regards to this particular comment, by you:
"No one should ever forget that no matter if they believe in God, no God, evolution or creation, it is ALL based on the FAITH that THEY are correct. It is arrogant..."

I would have to whole-heartedly agree.
The whole point to this thread was to ask, is the 'belief' in evolution, in its various aspects and theories, can it be considered a religion or a system of belief? I really am uncertain, other than the opinions given, as to the exactness of this. I believe that "it" is a belief system, but diffently not a religion, but again, it would depend on the person and how they fervently present their evolution stance(s).....


Toltec...thank you, for many things. I won't comment here for the "many things," but wisdom comes in various forms....and I believe that you have quite a bit of 'wisdom' for many of us to learn from.


regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
So gentlemen and ladies....is Evolution, in ALL its parts....can it be considered a religion? Is not evolution a 'doctrine' or sorts? Is it not also a belief system to many?

Is math a religion too, then? Is either one something people just believe to be correct? Or, are they both proven by facts? It seems to me that what's really at debate here is perception of the facts. Those who don't want to believe in evolution, because it conflicts with their religion, will believe anything put forth that seems to discredit evolution. Is evolution a religion? I don't think so. If anything, it's what any science is before there's enough hard evidence - Pseudo-science. IMO, the evidence for evolution is so blatantly obvious, it must require real effort not to see it.

[Edited on 10-7-2003 by Satyr]

Satyr...nice question....sarcasm is good and healthy, at times....

regards
seekerof

I edited that one a bit, Seeker. It wasn't really intended to be sarcasm.

Satyr.....accusations are nice..I can deal with them....
This-------->"IMO, the evidence for evolution is so blatantly obvious, it must require real effort not to see it."....let me see,if its "blatantly" obvious to you...its "fact"? It's the "gospel truth"? No doubts about it huh? None.....? As to your further saying that "it must require real effort not to see it"........again, Satyr.....because you can "obviously" see it.....it's "fact"...can't be questioned? It's the "gospel truth" and thats the way it is...right?

You see....I don't buy into it as some here don't buy into "God". Thats my choice right? Your choice also, right? So whats with the hidden inuendo's....? Hasn't it been said multiple times throughout mankind's recorded history that "what another see's, another may not?" Evolution is empirical fact?! Doubtful! It might be fact, but it sure is hell ain't empirical!
The topic was raised because there are many, scientist's included, who walk around talking and teaching Evolution is a 'gospel'.....almost as if it is a religion. All religion is a system of belief's. I have already mentioned that I recanted that it was a 'religion', per se', but that it certainly can be a belief...requires faith...
This is not a matter of producing "evidences"...this is about how the mind works...not all scientist keep their feelings on a scientific basis...some....no names given...talk, teach and preach evolution like it was the 'gospel'...like reading from a Bible....that was the heart of the topic and discussion....
Proof is in the eye of the beholder....and proof can be brought forth all day long by many sides on this issue.
Math...a religion....please....
Thats like me asking you if the "primordial soup" was fact also?


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 7-10-2003 by Seekerof]

I believe that this is no different from any other belief.
God tends to work in what we consider a scientific way. He made our bodies out of DNA and chemicals. He created atoms, electrons, protons, etc.
Isn't it possible that he created this universe by the Big Bang? It certainly would have been within his power.
When God created life the Bible states that he created the animals first. Couldn't these animals have been created by using chemical processes?
About the whole unsureness of scientists. Just because they are uncertain doesn't mean they are wrong. Can you prove, using hard physical (not philosophical) evidence that God exists or that your religion is correct. All I am trying to say is that there is a way that science and religion can work together. All science was created by God. All that we see was created by God. But He had to have done it somehow. I don't think he just said it and, poof, it's there. I think that the science we are studing is just God's blueprints for the world; how he did it.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Satyr.....accusations are nice..I can deal with them....
This-------->"IMO, the evidence for evolution is so blatantly obvious, it must require real effort not to see it."....let me see,if its "blatantly" obvious to you...its "fact"? It's the "gospel truth"? No doubts about it huh? None.....? As to your further saying that "it must require real effort not to see it"........again, Satyr.....because you can "obviously" see it.....it's "fact"...can't be questioned? It's the "gospel truth" and thats the way it is...right?

You see....I don't buy into it as some here don't buy into "God". Thats my choice right? Your choice also, right? So whats with the hidden inuendo's....? Hasn't it been said multiple times throughout mankind's recorded history that "what another see's, another may not?" Evolution is empirical fact?! Doubtful! It might be fact, but it sure is hell ain't empirical!
The topic was raised because there are many, scientist's included, who walk around talking and teaching Evolution is a 'gospel'.....almost as if it is a religion. All religion is a system of belief's. I have already mentioned that I recanted that it was a 'religion', per se', but that it certainly can be a belief...requires faith...
This is not a matter of producing "evidences"...this is about how the mind works...not all scientist keep their feelings on a scientific basis...some....no names given...talk, teach and preach evolution like it was the 'gospel'...like reading from a Bible....that was the heart of the topic and discussion....
Proof is in the eye of the beholder....and proof can be brought forth all day long by many sides on this issue.
Math...a religion....please....

Thats like me asking you if the "primordial soup" was fact also?

regards
seekerof

So, where do we draw the line here? Math = fact, why? Because we think it does? Because we're taught that it makes 100% sense? What's the difference here? Not everyone can understand trig, so does that mean that trig is not a fact? Why do you believe Einstein's theories? (assuming you do) Why do you believe anything you're taught? Is it because you don't think they'd lie? Is it because you think it's fact? Why do you think it's fact? We're getting to a very dangerous portion of psychology now. Ah yes, the perception of reality! It always comes down to faith, doesn't it? You have to have some faith that math is a fact, just as you have to have faith that the sky is blue, and will be tomorrow. It's what facts you base your faith on that make you either wise or foolish, isn't it? Some people don't need any facts. They just want to believe. For me, evolution is easy to debate, because I don't care if it's real or not. Either way, it has absolutely no impact on me. Tell me, what exactly makes you think that evolution isn't real?

Satyr...lets get to the heart of this shall we....seems we are betting around the philisophical "bush" here....
Is the Theory of Evolution 100% empirical fact? If not....guess what? Faith has its role.....just as it takes faith to believe the "primordial soup" was were it all started for us/mankind, etc.

Math deals in empirical's...science, on the most part does not.

regards
seekerof

Actually, the "primordial soup" doesn't take faith.

It takes research. And experimentation. The Bible isn't based on observation which form theories and research testing to modify and confirm theories. The Bible is faith. Primordial soup isn't.

Every theory is only a tested hypothesis. Evolution is a tough one to test, since it apparently takes much more time than we have on earth. However, chemists have discovered pretty defined trails, which can be traced back. Maybe this trail isn't complete yet, but it is real evidence. The bible's version of history can't be traced back to anything, except folk lore and most likely vague misinterpretations. (Unless, of course, you believe in magic....plain and simple)

Originally posted by Byrd
Actually, the "primordial soup" doesn't take faith.

It takes research. And experimentation. The Bible isn't based on observation which form theories and research testing to modify and confirm theories. The Bible is faith. Primordial soup isn't.

Say WHAT Byrd.......?
"Primordial soup doesn't require 'faith'.....puuullllleeezzze.
Do you have any idea of the numbers involved in the concept of "primordial soup"?
Wow.....


Thanks for responding Satyr......


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 8-10-2003 by Seekerof]