I have a question regarding werewolves

This is open to discussion. Do you personally believe werwolves exist or any other type of were creatures? As well as that can you factually prove them? I am not talking about the delusional or medical side of it but the actual idea that a person can turn into a wolf like creature.

Personally I believe they exist and a few ideas of mine for it are that if the mind truly believes in something to do with its own self then it's possible. OR maybe genetic mutations, apparently it doesn't break any scientific laws when you try to change the porteins fats etc...in your body to do so, it's just too difficult with our technonlogy. So maybe one already has that makeup inside? I dunno but I'd like to hear your ideas.....

Well, I've never seen one Myself, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm not concerned. If I happen to see one, I'll be sure & pass it on.

I have never seen one. I have never seen any evidence of their existence being presented either. I have always though of them as a myth with roots in reality though. The relation between wolf and man has always been a strange one, and joining between the two in both mind and body has been observed in numerous forms during the course of history.

I read a theory once with regard to trolls. I have read into this particular theory since then and believe it to be a good one. In Norway in ancient days, whenever someone gave birth to a disfigured child, they usually were sent out into the woods to die. Some are said to have survived and roamed the woods. Some people, including me, believe that sightings of disfigured people might have been (one of) the origin to the troll-myth.

I have always liked werewolves. They scared me as a child, but quickly started to fascinate me. I have read similar theories about the origin of werewolves too. In Europe in the middle-ages, violent criminals and rapists alike were banished from society and forced into the woods and rendered lawless. They were told that violent behavior, and behavior like forcing themselves on women were beast-like and animalistic. These banished men were often convinced by other people that the reason for their violence were that the beast in them had claimed control of their mind and body. Also, back than, these atrocities were never accepted as human behavior, so people were easily convinced that these lawless wildmen were nothing but monsters. Often, the lawless ones would be gripped my insanity and believe they were beasts themselves... and without doing it deliberately, take on the aspects of for example a wolf.

Also, Lycanthropy as a mental illness has been observed in human beings since the birth of christ. This is when a human is in a state where he or she believe they are wolves. They would run around howling at night and generally behave aggressive towards other people. I don't know much about this illness though. I just read about it again in a book I have about goblins and wrights in Norwegian folklore that i picked up when I read this thread.

Wikipedia has been known to contain many holes and false facts, but if you want to do more research into the myths and facts about werewolves, en.wikipedia.org... might be a nice place to start. I was just inspired to do exactly that.

Originally posted by Snake64_009

OR maybe genetic mutations, apparently it doesn't break any scientific laws when you try to change the porteins fats etc...in your body to do so, it's just too difficult with our technonlogy.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here (do you mean that one can technologically change themselves to be a werewolf?), but I'd like to say that, in order to change the physical form of oneself, one would have to expend a gross amount of energy, for one thing, and for another, the resulting creature would have to contain the exact same mass as the human form, meaning that there would be no seven-foot-tall, half-man, half-beast running amuck devouring the innocent and howling at the full moon.

I don't claim to be a physics expert (in fact, my grasp of physics is limited), but from my understanding, the law of conservation of matter states that if you could change your shape at will, in order to become the huge, ravenous beastie of lore, you would need to draw a considerable amount of matter from an outside source, or, alternatively, gain enough extra flesh to match the exact amount of matter that the werewolf form would be.

So then, theoretically, an average person like myself who weighs 155lbs would have to acquire an extra 150lbs in order to shape-shift. That is a considerable amount.

Now, then, if we're just changing into an average, quadroped wolf: the largest species is the gray wolf, which averages roughly 50-130lbs, so we'll go off that. Someone of my size would actually lose matter--which, according to the laws of physics, is impossible--in order to achieve such a change, and then I would have to gain it back when I returned to human form.

However, let's say for the sake of argument that I manage to change into a typical werewolf. The amount of energy it would take to cause such a reaction in my body would be enormous, and I'd have to eat and drink quite an amount just to stay alive, not to mention speed up my metabolism to process such a thing.

So, do I believe the "changes-under-the-full-moon" werewolf exists? No, nor did it ever. It would be a complete impossibility.

I will say, however, that I enjoy the werewolf mythos and I enjoy making stories about them. However, that's all they are: stories.

Good points. I meant by that that it is possible to put wolf genes into a person to hange them but its too complicated. I read it somewhere but lost the source so I can't proof it but I've no reason to lie lol.

I understand what you mean regarding matter etc. But of course films and stories can turn out to be wrong regarding the fact that they become twice the size. So lets say they change into one of about the same amount of matter. What then?

Or maybe there is such thing as "magic." Maybe they do acquire energy to shape shift.

I understand what you mean regarding matter etc. But of course films and stories can turn out to be wrong regarding the fact that they become twice the size. So lets say they change into one of about the same amount of matter. What then?

Again, the amount of energy needed to cause such a reaction in the body would be tremendous. The metabolism would need to speed up in order to support the demand for energy, and there would be a need to consume a lot of food to support both the metabolism and the demand for energy.

As for magic: while, again, I enjoy fantastical stories, I remain healthily skeptical about the existence of magic here in the real world. To argue whether or not magic comes into play during a shape-shift would be like debating the existence of God: in the end, we will both have our opinions, and there will be no proof or disproof for either side.

However, if magic existed, I do believe it would be the manipulation of energy through will, not some inexplicable force that can be wielded with a mere thought. In my unpublished book series, sorcery is this very thing, and sorcerers are people of intense discipline, strength, and control. It takes both physical and mental wellness to use magic, due to the strain it has on the body and mind. So, then, the werewolf in question would need to be physically fit as well as highly disciplined and in control of their faculties. This would be difficult only in one area: when they are transformed. The brain of a wolf is largely different than the brain of a human. Taken from here:

Of all the animals on Earth at present, the animal with the greatest brain/body mass ratio is the human being. The average human (150 pound body, 3 pound brain) has a ratio of approximately 1:.02 (for each pound of body mass there is .02 pounds of brain mass). The average dolphin has a ratio of about 1:.00825 (the blue whale mentioned above has a ratio of about 1:.000165). The two highest ratios in the animal kingdom are the human and the dolphin (by comparison, the wolf, a very intelligent canine, has a ratio of about 1:.00156).

Let us assume that the wolf requires its entire brain for housekeeping (a totally unfounded and, to me, absurd assumption). If this is the case, then the human brain has left over, after housekeeping, nearly 13 times the brain mass the wolf has that can be devoted to thinking.

In other words: once transformed, how would the werewolf return to human form without the brain capacity of a human?

This is, of course, banking on my idea of what magic would be if it existed. If you have different views, I would very much like to hear them.

Again good points...I should have extended what I meant by magic. But you said it all about willpower etc. If the mind truly believes in changing forms then maybe it's possible in that way.

And to answer your last question maybe they still have the powers of a human in the werewolf form. Because they don't exactly change into a wolf but a half and half between wolf and human.

What annoys me is that a lot of people including the church see the wolf as evil when it wouldn't harm a person for no reason! then because of that they say werewolves are evil. Maybe if they existed they are hiding because no one would like to see them.

In regards to mass vs size, this is not a good general debunking rule. good example: as cars require more technology they become heavier, as technology advances, they become lighter sometimes to the point of where they originally started.

hence if you think about it, don't muscle cells grow longer instead of multiplying? What about if the bone structure grew in size instead. becoming more hollow or "stretching" the cells. what about if the structure of how the cells bonded together grew a wider gap? this would stretch the muscle. also adrenaline has been know to increas the amount of strength available. (do not consider this as fact as i i have not been to school in at least 10 years).

so in my oppion, it is possible. and just like technology, we evolve. who is to say this is real or not, until it is proven and unproven (as we all know sttistics and tests can be designed to have them show whatever we want).

Regards,

i didnt know that about cells lol so good points.. I don't do biology lol. And aobut the adrenaline, it gives strength but only for a very short amount of time.

It was intended as food for thought.

Joe

Just wondering would you believe someone who says he/she is one and is telling the truth and trys to explain how it happens? Don't worry I am not one lol.....Just an opinion thing.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Well, I've never seen one Myself, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm not concerned. If I happen to see one, I'll be sure & pass it on.

"should one say that something does not exist, merely becase we have never seen or heard of it?" Ge Hung.

Ge Hung makes a good point in the quote about beliving what we cant or haven't seen. If millions of people belive in god and jesus but have never seen them then why cant there be werewolves or other mystical beings. and you cant use the bible as a source of proof because it is simply a book, and there are many a book that say stuff about werewolves and you cant say that the bible is non-fiction and is true, because there is no factual and evidentual proof that any of the stuff that happened in the bible actualy happened. Now dont interpret this the wrong way, im not bashing religion or god or anyones belives, i belive in god and the bible, i was just using it as an example. A comparison between beliveing what you can see and what you cant.

[edit on 3-1-2006 by spaceman16]

Originally posted by Snake64_009
What annoys me is that a lot of people including the church see the wolf as evil when it wouldn't harm a person for no reason! then because of that they say werewolves are evil. Maybe if they existed they are hiding because no one would like to see them.

What annoys me is that you say "the church see the wolf as evil", as if the church is one embodiment which thinks and acts the same. All churches are different, whether in belief or customs. For example, protestants do not believe that the Pope is anymore God-like than you or me, while Catholics do. If i walked into my church and went up to the pastor saying "Hey pastor, do you think that wolves are evil?" I would definetley get different responses from different churches, so it is wrong to justify that "the church sees wolves as evil".

I personally don't believe that werewolves exist. There is usually a logical explanation to everything, and this is no different. There is a disease known as "zoanthropic paranoia" in which a person truly believes that they are an animal (usually a wolf) and attempts to drink blood and eat raw flesh. During the 16th century, witch hunts were extremely common. Witches were also accused of being able to turn into wolves and usually confessed to this because of the torture and ridicule that they went through. These public "werewolf confessions" added oil to the fire, giving undeniable proof that people could actually turn into wolves when they acutally could not. There are many other explanations, including strange behaviour that only wolves exhibit. For example, only wolves howl at the moon. People saw this as sad, human-like emotions. Actually, the leader of a wolf pack howls at the moon in order to communicate with his pack and rally the wolves to one spot, because wolves tend to spread out and get lost when hunting at night.

Also, there is a rare disease called hypertrichosts. Hypertrichosts starts at birth, and the body is covered from head to toe with short hair. Another plausible explanation to werewolf sightings and werewolf-like behaviour is the common peasant's diet. It usually consisted of bread, and bread tends to mold very quickly. One type of mold that grows on bread is called ergots, which (when eaten) causes delusional behaviour and hallucinations. Keep in mind that bread was the main diet of peasants back then. In 1951, nearly 135 people had to be hospitalized and 6 died from ergot poisoning in the French town of Pont St. Esprit. The people who were hospitalized had dreams of being attacked by animals, and some hallucinated that they were animals themselves.

See? A logical explanation for everything.

Originally posted by scoobdude
hence if you think about it, don't muscle cells grow longer instead of multiplying? What about if the bone structure grew in size instead. becoming more hollow or "stretching" the cells. what about if the structure of how the cells bonded together grew a wider gap? this would stretch the muscle.

Once again, the bone structure might stretch, but the mass would not increase, meaning you would be stretching the bone structure beyond its normal capacity. You would wind up with extremely brittle bones that would shatter very easily, rendering the werewolf in question a hazard to itself if it went rampaging about the countryside killing everything in sight.

The same goes for the muscles. The muscles may stretch, but in order for it to be effective, you would need to increase the mass of the muscle, otherwise you're stretching 150lbs of muscle over a structure that requires 300. It would be like stuffing a garbage bag with 60lbs of waste when it was meant to hold only 30lbs. The muscles would rip or be completely useless in the first place.

also adrenaline has been know to increas the amount of strength available. (do not consider this as fact as i i have not been to school in at least 10 years).

As has already been said, adrenaline gives a temporary boost. Due to its fast degradation, adrenaline doesn't last long, meaning that you wouldn't be a werewolf longer than a half-hour, at best.

just curious about the muscular implications, if the muscle grows to size, wouldnt this require some protein before hand, and amino acids perhaps? maybe a specialized howler shake, a little red ridding or two?

[edit on 4-1-2006 by SteveG]

Originally posted by Snake64_009
This is open to discussion. Do you personally believe werwolves exist

I once knew this guy who went around telling people that he was a Catholic, bisexual werwolf. I'm serious. He would explain these incantations excitedly, as I listened in amusement. He also related a story that happened to him - that I'd swear he saw out of really old B movie. You know: naked guy out in the woods under a bright full moon, got bit by something (or took something) and wound up waking up over the supposed dead carcass of some unfortunate goat. Or cow, whatever it was in his bizarro scenario. I always cut him slack and let him talk his smack. I told him I was a Christian and none of hi voodoo BS affected me. (Later in life my friend - a full blood Navajo - told me that's their belief, too.)
Anyway, the guy was a case, very nice, but a headcase just the same. But that's what he swore he was. Oh yeah, his name was Damian.

[edit on 1/4/06 by EastCoastKid]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there like that, more especially here in the great wide expanse of cyberspace, where proof is not always required. I've spent most of my Internet life around them, and I have to say that they're good for a few laughs now and then, but on a whole, they're just people with really active imaginations. Some of them actually come up with some fascinating stories, but most are just your average, run-of-the-mill, "woke-up-with-blood" folks.

Porfiria was a disease that caused pale skin which burned when exposed to the sun, stretched gums (ie: huge teeth, especially canines) and often caused madness as well. In the middle ages many people with porfiria lived in cemeteries where nobody would bother them. Possible explanation for vampires. Werewolves were considered sorcerers who turned into actual quadruped wolves, or just madmen who thought they were wolves and did horrible things like eating people.

That would sum up my friend, delusional, pale skin.. (and for record, I knew him out here in the real world). I don't know what that's worth.. I do know he was not averse to doing drugs. He used to go to his mom's to steal pot. He definitely had visions of bizzaro grandeur. The guy had nothing else.

Oh yeah, he didn't eat people, either. He tried to act vegetarian b/c that was "the cool thing to be." werewolf, my x.

[edit on 1/4/06 by EastCoastKid]

although there maybe many reasons like mutations or mind over matter
i can give a possible cause of such legends and some other similar creatures ie half man half beast it seems that in ancient times when armies would congregate in areas before or during campaigns the generals would organize pens of animals with which the sex starved soldiers could use for sexual relief as it was preferable to having disease ridden whores in the camps.
now every now and then its possible that a cross breed would happen between man and beast and further suppose that some would be dogs
this also explains why centaurs are often seen as warriors because they would be around the soldiers of long campaigns and may well have proved useful although as for mating with a horse could be tricky
i forget where i read this explaination but sounds plausible