The Cessation Of Dualistic Conceptual Thinking

I have to somewhat agree with you (theneo) because your average human being does think in the manner you have suggested, that in order to cease dualistic thinking it would mean ceasing in the physical form, becoming 'one' with your spiritual form. Most people cannot seperate the two, perhaps it is due to fear of losing oneself or finding a place better/higher then what we live and believe in, in the here and now..

What you are suggesting Toltec, is extremely deep it can bring on a whole new/different perspective to life as whole..and some people fear that and perhaps even fear that they might lose control by seperating their physicality..it is the physical body and mind that one may feel keeps us grounded and in control..
I know atleast this is somewhat of the case for me..
What I feel is that what you have presented is so important but at the same time feel that it's like going from step 1 straight to 8 and bypassing the leading up to steps. Does this make sense?

I can honestly say that just by working amongst people who have lost their minds has always brought me to the conclusion that some of them might have gone to a place where physical realm no longer exist, and thus lost control..hence they are trapped in the spiritual..Now I know this won't happen to everyone, because maybe some possess a greater strength and limitation capacity then those I'm referring to..but this fear of the unknown can hinder some..
Magestica

Toltec- hmm i always thought you were supposed to be like lost in mindless nothinginess. If i'm supposed to be engrossed then my visual activity can be an advantage! I could intensively visualize and "flit" around, which would defintely retain my interest.

I think in need to find a guru of some type.

[Edited on 28-9-2003 by ktprktpr]

As I see it, which in an infinite universe has the same possibility of being incorrect as any other theory, physicality is simply a lower vibration. Your particles, as it were, vibrate lower than say your astral body's particles. All made of the same "stuff" just some vibrate lower some higher. As you gain more experience you get more of the universe (knowledge) so you become denser. Your particles move faster and there is more of you. At some point you won't be able to "fit" in the physical anymore. You will leave your body for the next level and will gladly accept that because you have learned and experienced what you needed/wanted in the physical. I suppose you could vibrate your physical body to the vibration of your astral and ascend that way or you just leave the body which we all do anyway upon death. I think if one is trying to ascend in any given (limited) physical life they have to do some wild quantum jumping of mentality in order to vibrate at the same level as the next realm and to get enough 'universe stuff' to fall into the next level. Density of being (intellect) and vibration of being (emotional response to the universe) to me appear to be the name of the game. I don't see the next level as being in balance in an individual sense either. Since the next level appears to be the realm of "angels" and "demons" or whatever you wish to call them then there is still bias at that level. It appears to be the level of love. Love of self or Love for others. This level we are currently at appears to be the level of understanding and decision. Understanding self, understanding the universe around you and then deciding how you are going to interact with the universe (this includes all beings you interact with of course).

Thoughts welcome...

Edit: Don't let the wording shut off any possibility here. You could call the astral the energy body or the electrical body but when one feels it they know it's there. Some that feel it say it's a manifestation of the living physical body. I certainly have nothing to say to that. For me personally it's different but I can't tell someone else that because they are the type that requires proof. And for that type there will never be enough proof until they "know" it for themselves.

Food for thought:

29. Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels.

Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty."

www.gnosis.org...


[Edited on 28-9-2003 by uIVIa]

Taken from riffraffalunas sig
[Quote]
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the princes and principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world and against spiritual wickedness in the high places"~ephesians 6:10-12~


Development in respect to consciousness is an effort which takes one into the unknown, the cause for it being unknown is not related to you (plural) but rather to why you were never told.

The question then becomes is the awareness you posses inherently functional to an extent. Achieving altered states of awareness is a natural part of your (again plural) development, or are there actually rules based upon the strict adherence to dogma and religious principles which need to be adhered to?

Magestica, I understand the concerns, which exist with respect to spiritual development, to be honest, what I am presenting. Is not to suggest contemplating non-existence but rather, developing a personal relationship with God though an orientation which places emphasis upon symbols, with respect to the hidden meaning each have, inherent to an individual.

Applying a process such as presented in the text (links) I have attached is basic and fundamental to what is accepted within the auspices of all belief systems offered.

The implications are not of experiences, which actually fall outside a norm (that norm being with the field of those who commonly engage is such practices, for example monks).

My main point is that the human condition has an inherent purpose, one that is a result
of the accumulation of knowledge since that purpose was considered valid. This purpose has been sidestepped. What is being presented is suggestive of evidence to that effect, so as to allow the membership of this board to consider not only the issue but as well the consequences.

To actually engage in spiritual development as a result of what is being presented here is quite another story but not another topic.

I see the human form and what we perceive of reality, from the context of the capacity of that form to percieve as the part of a spectrum. Part of a spectrum which in combination with all other aspects of this spectrum produce white light. White light. in this context, being an orientation to which encorporates the extent of the individual to perceive and interact . This orientation to infinity is inherent and pre-existence to life as we understand it. As such, despite we (plural) at present do not acknowledge the capacity to perceive in this way and or interact, does not mean it is currently dormant.

The matter of infinity is a calculable construct, as presented by Einstein, the Universe is Finite but Boundless. As established by Bell, all things created at the same time react to all others created at the same time, despite an apparent separateness and despite any perceived distance in regards to that separateness (Bells Theorem with the word theorem
being defined as fact)

That all things what we see as existing are interacting, despite the fact they appear separate, respect to these things an underlying unity must in fact exist. What we see of reality is akin to what can be seen of a glacier above the water beyond our ability to perceive, is a reality, in which separation is a factor only to those which have not developed to the extent it is no longer apparent.

My personal experiences in respect to such things, does suggest caution. To be certain what I am implying is that a manual does exist but that manual has been broken up and separated between cultures. Clearly this is a puzzle, in which the pieces have been broken up in such a way, as to make putting it together very, very difficult.

Any thoughts?

this existence in the body,
mind, soul, taking a trip percieved as linear through life...
outside the confines of this body,
potentialities, thoughts manifested from experiences in the body...
to ascend one has to only will or want or desire that correct?...
yet with fear the ascension will not be a pleasent one correct?...

Reecent experience on a personal level indeed points to the fear element.

For various reasons I have no concept of what keeps a body breathing when the astral self (not the energy self) is not in it. That and a couple of other things prevent me moving forward any with the kinds of meditation I am capable of.

Oh well.

Toltec:

There is nothing in what you say that I would inherently disagree with.

I would just add further clarity (perhaps) to a symbol you mentioned. That symbol being white light. But more specifically what happens when that light hits something else. In this physical world (which I think is symbolic of the higher realms) something will be white when it reflects all the different colors that make up light. And something will be black when it absorbes all the different colors that make up light. (not talking about race so hopefully noone will go there) But this phenomenon may be symbolic of the higher. Where as those of a more positive orientation will reflect existence or in other words give that which was given to them. And in the same respect the dark would be that which absorbes or keeps to themselves that which has been given to them. Those that give to others and those that give to self. Just a thought.

those that accept their sacrifices and live with them and those that dont...
another potentiality...

Originally posted by bigsage
this existence in the body,
mind, soul, taking a trip percieved as linear through life...
outside the confines of this body,
potentialities, thoughts manifested from experiences in the body...
to ascend one has to only will or want or desire that correct?...

Not an authority my any means but I'll offer my perceptions to your inquiry. Your statement (to me) appears to be true but not complete. One can have the will/want/desire to ascend but one must back up that with action/thought to show that one is actually desiring the ascension. Kinda like the the whole ask it shall be given, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened. One has to really know how to ask/seek/knock with intention. Also, what is given is purely based on one's own path. You will not be given the answers that are not pertinent at the moment you have trully asked. I use this personally as a guage. If I ask and I don't get what I ask for then I know I need to look deeper at my asking. I must know myself better. When I know myself then I'll know what I can ask for.

yet with fear the ascension will not be a pleasent one correct?...

Again only my perception and because you asked. I see your statement as correct. I see the statement as sort of a round robin also. For when you ascend, physicality will be opened up to your mind. We see this in simple terms here with telekenesis and such. So if you ascend with fear (which I think is fully possible) those fears will manifest and the unpleasantness will match your fears. So if you are scared of 12ft hairy spiders guess what, you will see 12ft hairy spiders. It would of course only be a learning experience as you'll figure out sooner or later they are manifestations of your fears and can disappear as quickly as you allow your fears to disappear. Again, just how I personally see it and it may be wrong.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Reecent experience on a personal level indeed points to the fear element.

For various reasons I have no concept of what keeps a body breathing when the astral self (not the energy self) is not in it. That and a couple of other things prevent me moving forward any with the kinds of meditation I am capable of.

Oh well.

LoL. I know what you are saying MA. I have difficulty in this area myself. Maybe there is that "silver cord" that holds the energy and matter bodies together. That may explain it. When death comes that cord is dissolved and the body dies?

thank you for the honored response..
is attaching oneself to the physical unreal, or the other way around...
and does the fact that one creates what they desire not enter the realm of all that is,physically...
or are the desires feed, metaphysically...

Originally posted by bigsage
thank you for the honored response..
is attaching oneself to the physical unreal, or the other way around...
and does the fact that one creates what they desire not enter the realm of all that is,physically...
or are the desires feed, metaphysically...

I am honored to be asked my perceptions.

The first is for you to decide. The universe is infinite and so is your mind. Then what is the difference between the two? You attach yourself to where you are comfortable. Then you learn from that vantage point until you're ready for something else. All is as real or unreal as you make it to be for yourself.

From my experience it does enter the realm of the physical. However, there are certain other-selves that are Self Proclaimed elite and wish only their reality manifest. Just look around you. Everything you see is someone's desired creation. Technology is nothing more than mind manifestations. It's kinda like a chosen handicap for those not in the elitists' circles to create that which they desire in this realm. I see the next realm as being a physical level playing field where there is enough room and energy for all to manifest their desires without imposing on other's free will (if that is their choice). There, your free-will can only be imposed upon by your ignorance or by your choice.

I think the last statement is also correct. I think thoughtforms are still made from beings in the 3d realm. They are just not too powerful and are short lived. You, of course, can't physically see them unless you can see also from your energy body (which some people can). Have you ever felt a negative vibe when walking into a building you have never been in before?

[Edited on 29-9-2003 by uIVIa]

my third eye is open most of the time and i tend to percieve things before they happen...
when accidents happen i tend to react instinctively to avoid damage to the objects involved...
so in your opinion you would believe that the 4d realm would constitute a 3d body to manifest?...
or a 4d body to manifest the 3d...
actually that last question matters not...
i fear not for i have already chosen the right path yet it pains my body the persecution one undergoes...

Perhaps the attached can act as a further clarification not only with respect to this discussion but also in regards to the Toltec way.

In that context I offer it merely as a translation with respect to what I can give as advise.

www.thegreatillusion.com...

Ok,here's my 2 cents:Existing in the 3-d,physical world,(i.e. being incarnated in a physical body),requires us to perceive reality in a dualistic nature;it's an inherent condition of this plane of existence.Of course the "universe" is manifest in more than 3 dimensions,and when you change the rate of vibration of your consciousness,(meditate,alter your awareness),you then can perceive the multi-dimensional nature of the "entire" manifest "reality".
When you transcend the physical world,you step outside the boundaries of space/time,dualistic thinking.

This is one of the better metaphysical threads to be engaged in at ATS.

It beats the crap out of "Is there a God", "Is God an alien?", "Killing God" and various others that draw netizens from near and far.

The absence of thought is possible and achievable. Even ten years ago I would have doubted that.

Originally posted by bigsage
my third eye is open most of the time and i tend to percieve things before they happen...
when accidents happen i tend to react instinctively to avoid damage to the objects involved...
so in your opinion you would believe that the 4d realm would constitute a 3d body to manifest?...
or a 4d body to manifest the 3d...
actually that last question matters not...
i fear not for i have already chosen the right path yet it pains my body the persecution one undergoes...

Here is my current perception. Take it as you will.

The spirit has chosen to learn by handicapping itself in a restricting realm of the infinite. This "human" spirit jumps into a body it sees will best match it's soul profile. (using soul/spirit interchangably here) At the moment the soul jumps in there is not a 4d body present. As the spirit interacts with the 3d matter body intelligent energy is the result. Seeing how the soul matches itself somewhat to the matter body and vise versa the energy body being created will match itself to this mind/body/spirit complex but within it's inherent vibrational density. Upon death this energy body is dissipated into the infinite just as the matter body is dissipated. If one's spirit has learned the lessons of the 3d realm and the energy body is evolved enough to hold the spirit the energy body could go on into 4d without the spirit returning to the actual spirit realm (light realm). As stated before, reitterating here for closure, I think the matter body in this situation could be "consumed" by the energy body thus adding to the stature of that body (e=mc�).

In another sense of your second question, I would say that a 4d body can manifest itself into 3d. Anyone that has seen a ghost has most likely experienced this. I think the ghost thing is a recently departed (400 or less years approx.) 3d level being that did not go into the light (carolann ) aka the spirit realm. (As actual 4d level beings have their own lessons to learn and will only manifest when their lessons dictate.) This would be that really bright tunnel people talk about when having a near death experience. For whatever reason they are still very much attached to their 3d life that has ended.

Side Note: I agree with most of Toltec's writings except for the part of "Cessation Of Dualistic Conceptual Thinking" in the next realm up. I personally think this happens at the light realm (2 realms up). I see the next realm as being a quarantine so that each being's choice can be manifested to it's full extent while in physicality. However, I would agree with the idea in as much as a 4d being has a grasp on both sides of the duality and could choose either side at any time.

As usual though, I may be completely wrong.

[Edited on 29-9-2003 by uIVIa]

You offer a full course meal here! I just don't think I(singular) can eat all that at once..

Ok enough of the metaphors, you have out done yourself with this particular post, if I must say so. I completely understand what you are presenting and the passion is evident in the manner you present it.

And I'm not asking *how to's* anymore, instead I'm interested to know your opinion on *why* I don't know, this just seems almost too sacred to offer at the low low price you have chosen, there has to be a catch somewhere that I'm just not seeing? Basically what I'm asking, is why have you shared this with us here today?
Is it out of shere gratification that possibly *one* of us can achieve this? Or are you looking for answers that you, yourself have not found? Or is it that you are looking for comparisons of experiences or even validation?

Maybe I'm just different then you or others here, but if I were to achieve this and reach that extremely high realm of spirituality, I wouldn't be so quick to run out and share it with the world. Is that being selfish? Or could it be fear of what others might say with respect to things one might see or witness?

And one more thing, then I'm done for a while I promise Where would one go from there? It would seem to me that one might just find the answers, pure and simple, so what would follow? Because we *don't* usually possess this kind of awareness, it might make life seem petty or beneath us....and truly Toltec, this is where my fear lies..

Don't feel obligated to answer ALL of my questions, just the ones that seem more important to you & anything you can't understand (right) I'll explain further if need be.
Magestica

i think it's not stopping thinking altogether but stopping the conceptualized thinking which we are stuck in, remove yourself from all the worldly concepts and think at thinkgs instead of about them

...an EMPTY bowl, water pitcher, soon fills....as Nature abhors a vacuum....

if one fears, having a blank mind (standing naked) then more house cleaning is in order (casting out demons)...

vedic rishis insist that .........

floaters are also optic artifacts...

an aescetic vegetable? state? Enlightenment? Nirvana?

can 6 millennia be spun into a single thread?

Hanzel & Gretel went into the forest....but they had to murder their way back out..!!!