The Cessation Of Dualistic Conceptual Thinking

You can assign different terms to states of consciousness,or categorize them-ad infinum.Action of the mind IS karma,which is usually manifest as "desire".Desire is a function of the Mind.To transcend desire,you must transcend the Mind.This "action of the mind",(desire), is Karma.Karma is the "random element" that changes what would otherwise be a rather mechanistic unfolding of universal action/reaction.To be conscious AT ALL is a karmic tie.And then there is the element of free will,the unpredictable use of will by an entitiy to manipulate it's environment at any given moment,changing the outcome of actions already set into motion.Can you interact at all without creating karma?Perhaps the only facet of our "individualities" that stands outside of the realm of karma,in the 3rd reality that lies beyond duality,is the Monad.
When you evolve beyond the Monad state,you are no longer an individual.So I suppose the original question about CAN we "not think",to reach a point of consciousness beyond duality has somehow transformed into WHY (??).There are a multitude of answers for HOW...is it possible?Yes.
WHY,however,will remain the Eternal Mystery.

[Edited on 9/29/03 by shamanseeker]

[Edited on 9/29/03 by shamanseeker]

When I asked 'why' I guess I should say, I wasn't really expecting a definitive answer however there are questions that one can ask that another may feel cannot be answered, but another can (in a round about way) I feel my motives are clear as to why I'm asking the questions I'm asking, but someone else may not..

I suppose I'm just expressing my interest with as many questions that come to mind, heh, but then if I cleared my mind-I might not have questions. What a vicious circle...which leads to what you've stated 'karma'.
Magestica

[Edited on 9/29/03 by magestica]

There are several reasons, amongst them is a rather strange experience I had several ago, with people who thought engaging in abuse of others in a "certain way,"was something they could get away with on a rather grand scale. The reality is my training began in respect to such matters in keeping with Native American traditions (which is about 3 years old) by the time I was school age I was not only versed in Native American ways, but as well those related to Chinese and Japanese spiritual training. Research with respect to the Toltec does present they have for the last 40 years or so been more open in regards to presenting themselves the there ideas to others. From that context you could say what I am doing is responding to that mandate in a manner, which for me makes sense.

I spent a considerable time researching and looking carefully at many different forums, I chose ATS because it seemed the very best for several reasons related to the format and the population which frequented here (to date have absolutely no complaints).

For me as I have stated on several occasions you path is so personal it cannot beyond a certain point be achieved as a result of training or teaching. Literally, I feel there are as many paths as there are individuals in the Universe, each one going in the same direction (God).

Being "There" really is a matter of perspective, often the criteria for such consideration in respect to the concept of scope. What for you today can be defined within the context of that construct, after several years of consistent exercise will seem tame.

As Jesus said, "With the faith of a mustard seed one could move a mountain. From a point of view that would be very impressive if in fact one were a mustard seed.

That one is not, means they have much more to learn.

Clearly a motivation here is to present the conclusion that mankind in his effort to understand himself and his surroundings has been sidetracked.

The attached is a sugested reading...

www.geocities.com...

Any thoughts?

[Edited on 30-9-2003 by Toltec]

For taking the time to share that here. I just thought of a few things last night pertaining to some things I wrote and how it could easily be conveyed in a different manner then I am intending. So I'll try a different approach..

Firstly, I am capable of quieting my mind or going deeply into an alpha state of awareness whilst meditating but I do this by focusing on whatever it may be that I'm wanting to meditate on, so the thing is, is that I can stop the business in my mind at the drop of a hat, but I can't clean it per say. There always has to be a focal point for me, I've never been able to think of *nothing*.
And from what I'm gathering here..this is what is needed? I have heard and read that if you use a symbol as your focus then this can help cease thoughts, but I have never found a symbol that works for me as I will still think of it and then thoughts start to come in from elsewhere. I know it was you that even suggested using a symbol during meditations.

So do you have any suggestions as to what I might be doing wrong-if anything? I'm not new to meditation Toltec, but my ways differ from the norm presented in text. I accidentally started meditatiing when I was very young and didn't even know what it was I was doing or that there was even a name for it-it's quite odd to explain. I swear it just came to me- the techniques and all. I've used those over the years and perfected or changed very little and yet have advanced to a certain extent..

Also I should add..that visions began to manifest into my meditations early on and this is something very personal to share and I won't go into details unless you hold me down and force it out
Thanks for this..and everything you've said (I hope the bill hasn't gone into the triple digits yet..
Magestica

Often when one meditates it is surprising how difficult it is to focus on one particular thing.

(Quotations from Nicholas of Cusa)
...it is necessary to reject things that, along with their material accessories, are attained through the senses, the imagination, or reason, in order to reach the most simple and most abstract understanding, where all things are one; where the line is a triangle, a circle, and a sphere; where unity is trinity and trinity is unity; where accident is substance; where body is spirit and motion is rest, and so on. Understanding occurs when each thing in the one is understood as the one and the one as all things and, consequently, each thing in the one is understood as all things.
(pp. 98-99)

(Quotations from Bodhidharma)
The mind and the world are opposites, and vision arises where they meet. When your mind doesn't stir inside, the world doesn't arise outside. When the world and the mind are both transparent, this is true vision. And such understanding is true understanding.
(p. 55)

Its almost as if the mind has a mind of its own and will not respond the way you want it to, unless you give it what it needs that being something complex, intricate
and very detailed.


One-way to do this is to focus upon very intricate images such as mandalas, one should place an emphasis upon every detail. Not only with respect to the visualization but as well it�s meaning.

Often times when one looks at oriental thought the conclusion is that the intent with respect to considering nothing is the means to an end...

(Quotations from Shui-ch'ing Tzu)
True emptiness exists when the mind is clear and all forms have disappeared. Externally, there are no objects. Internally, there is no mind. There is only emptiness. In this state even emptiness does not exist. In true emptiness there is no space, no desire, no will; there are no appearances, no thoughts. All realms of existence are dissolved. In absolute stillness there is no self and no other. There is only Earlier Heaven in its undifferentiated whole.
(p. 69)

When the mortal mind is dead, the mind of Tao can live... When the mind of Tao lives, no thoughts can arise. When no thoughts arise, one returns to Earlier Heaven.
(p. 76)

(Quotations from Dennis Genpo Merzel)
The mind does not have a shape, it does not have a form, it is not a thing, it is a no-thing. It is vast and wide, boundless and limitless.
(p. 7)

Trying to grasp it by thinking is like trying to contain the whole ocean in a single cup. Thinking is so limited, while the One Mind is vast and wide like infinite space. There is no way that thoughts or words can touch it.
(p. 40)

It is natural to have thoughts, but thinking requires effort. In the most natural state, there is nonthinking. What do we mean by nonthinking? Simply allowing thoughts to bubble up into the mind and pass away is nonthinking. Nonthinking is that which goes beyond either thoughts or no thoughts: it is neither blank mind nor busy mind. When the mind is allowed to rest naturally, there is no problem. We create a problem only if we don't like the thoughts that arise spontaneously and want to get rid of them. Then our thoughts persist all the more.
(pp. 61-62)

Rather, it is an effort at developing the ability to sense beyond the known senses so as to allow the unknown senses the opportunity to perceive. In this sense what is recommended is to come as close as possible to sensory deprivation so the mind focuses on what
is beyond.

As such in the case of both West and East the goal is ultimately the source

(Quotations from Author of "The cloud...")
If you want this (naked intention directed to God) summed up in a word, to retain it more easily, take a short word, preferably of one syllable, to do so. The shorter the word the better, being more like the working of the Spirit. A word like "GOD" or "LOVE". Choose which you like, or perhaps some other, so long as it is of one syllable. And fix this word fast to your heart, so that it is always there come what may. It will be your shield and spear in peace and war alike. With this word you will hammer the cloud and the darkness above you. With this word you will suppress all thought under the cloud of forgetting. So much so that if ever you are tempted to think what it is that you are seeking, this one word will be sufficient answer. And if you would go on to think learnedly about the significance and analysis of that same word, tell yourself that you will have it whole, and not in bits and pieces. If you hold fast, that thought will surely go. And why? Because you refuse to let it feed on the helpful meditations we spoke of earlier. (pp. 69-70)

(Quotations from Bodhidharma)
To invoke the Buddha's name you have to understand the dharma of invoking. If it's not present in your mind, your mouth chants an empty name. As long as you're troubled by the three poisons or by thoughts of yourself, your deluded mind will keep you form seeing the Buddha and you'll only waste your effort. Chanting and invoking are worlds apart. Chanting is done with the mouth. Invoking is done with the mind. And because invoking comes from the mind, it's called the door to awareness. Chanting is centered in the mouth and appears as sound. If you cling to appearances while searching for meaning, you won't find a thing...
(p. 111)

Mantras are sensory experiences from a holistic sense, applied in the context of the whole. Even your orientation to human form (the body) needs to become part of the Mantras intent (whatever it may be).

Tien Li is a recommended technique to understand. But again, these experiences are ultimately personal experiences. So much so, one should never apply what one reads or is told by any other as more than just advise (this is a very important point).

Any thoughts?



[Edited on 1-10-2003 by Toltec]