Lawsuit Pending as Alleged Lesbians Expelled from Cal Lutheran

The two young girls involved, both high-school juniors who had come to Cal Lutheran as freshmen, came under scrutiny from faculty at the school at the start of this year. They were subsequently brought into Principal Rev. Gregory Bork's office and questioned about their feelings for each other. Neither student's parents were notified of this activity until it was decided that the two girls would be expelled because their alleged behavior did not reflect the school boards beliefs and principles. An appeal to the school board was denied in October. The lawsuit has been filed, but the school has yet to be served with the case.



A spokesman for the CA DA's office has stated this is 'new ground' in the legal approach to the line between religious freedom and discrimination for sexual orientation, which is prohibited under the California Constitution.

The attorney for the plaintiff disagrees, claiming that a fee-taking school that is not a church can not discriminate against students on the basis of alleged sexual orientation.

Federal courts have historically sided with freedom of religion.

[edit on 21-12-2005 by Icarus Rising]

[edit on 12/22/05 by FredT]

i dont think they should have been thrown out of school. though a private school it is not a church.. i went to private school for 1 year (hated it) it was a catholic school but there was a jewish girl there.. so if see didnt share the beliefs and wasnt thrown out how can you throw a homosexual out..a school cant have it both ways. also asking girls those questions without the parents knowing is wrong IMO

Brian

Yes, I think the principal handled this situation badly, and the school may be found liable for his mistakes. I was astounded to read that he brought the two girls into his office together and separately and asked them such inappropriate questions.

This is a PRIVATE school and most private schools reserve the right to admit, expell and deny admission to pretty much anyone for anything. If someone does not like the schools policies they can find another school.

There are a few other things to consider, is there a gay/straight question on the application? What did the girls answer? If they falsified the application then that's grounds for being expelled because the school would have probably not admitted them in the first place if they answered anything but "straight"......

[edit on 22/12/2005 by SportyMB]

To be a member of the Lutheran Schools I went to you also had to also be a church member. Homosexuality is considered grounds for excommunication from the church and thus removal from the school. Simple as that…

Its for the best that they should go elsewhere anyway, they would most likely not have been happy there in the long run anyway as what is taught would be in conflict with their personal beliefs.

Should people be suing the masons, as an example, for not accepting atheists and women also?

Originally posted by SportyMB
This is a PRIVATE school and most private schools reserve the right to admit, expell and deny admission to pretty much anyone for anything. If someone does not like the schools policies they can find another school.

There are a few other things to consider, is there a gay/straight question on the application? What did the girls answer? If they falsified the application then that's grounds for being expelled because the school would have probably not admitted them in the first place if they answered anything but "straight"......

[edit on 22/12/2005 by SportyMB]

being gay is like being black or hispanic they cant throw people out of their school for that.. in the future stuff like this will be no different then a kkk member shouting about black rights..they have no right to ask that question.

brian

Originally posted by defcon5
To be a member of the Lutheran Schools I went to you also had to also be a church member. Homosexuality is considered grounds for excommunication from the church and thus removal from the school. Simple as that…

Its for the best that they should go elsewhere anyway, they would most likely not have been happy there in the long run anyway as what is taught would be in conflict with their personal beliefs.

Should people be suing the masons, as an example, for not accepting atheists and women also?

the masons allow black hispanic white and gay people and are not a school and the woman thing yes women should sue them.

brian

Originally posted by atomic811
being gay is like being black or hispanic they cant throw people out of their school for that..

This is a matter of opinion; there is much debate to whether it is hereditary or behavioral. It really has not been proven either way. Personally I think it’s a matter of choice, and I don’t care how much the other side screams that it is hereditary or natural.

The church obviously does not discriminate based on race, which should go without me even having to say it. These are two entirely different things.

Most churches that are more fundamental believe that is behavioral and sinful. You do not allow that kind of stuff into the church environment as it causes disruptions, problems, and opens the door for other things that the church considers to be unethical and sinful. You certainly do not allow people to come into your organization that do something which you teach is wrong.

The bigger question is what are these two doing in a church school that up front says it does not approve of homosexuality?

This smells to me of the Gay Lobby purposely causing churches problems to advance their war against religion…

Originally posted by atomic811
the masons allow black hispanic white people

And so does the Lutheran Church.


[edit on 12/22/2005 by defcon5]

Originally posted by atomic811
the masons allow black hispanic white and gay people and are not a school and the woman thing yes women should sue them.

atomic811, The Masons is a private club that requires members to be accepted by a council or whatever (im not sure of the details)...very much like this site that you are on (ATS). Should people be able to sue ATS for denying membership?

Should girls be able to sue because they can't be in the boy scouts? What about boys in the girl scouts? Is it OK for a guy play on a women baseball team?

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by atomic811
being gay is like being black or hispanic they cant throw people out of their school for that..

This is a matter of opinion; there is much debate to whether it is hereditary or behavioral. It really has not been proven either way. Personally I think it’s a matter of choice, and I don’t care how much the other side screams that it is hereditary or natural.

The church obviously does not discriminate based on race, which should go without me even having to say it. These are two entirely different things.

Most churches that are more fundamental believe that is behavioral and sinful. You do not allow that kind of stuff into the church environment as it causes disruptions, problems, and opens the door for other things that the church considers to be unethical and sinful. You certainly do not allow people to com into your organization that do something which you teach is wrong.

The bigger question is what are these two doing in a church school that up front says it does not approve of homosexuality?

This smells to me of the Gay Lobby purposely causing churches problems to advance their war against religion…

first off i am gay and believe me it wasnt a choice ..i rather not be... second the private schools get federal money...gay lobby i love that... its sorta like the gay agenda..people actually think i can turn someone gay.. its so far from the truth..no one got a free toaster for joining.. there is no gay agenda ect for people that are gay fighting for rights to be treated equal.. the same part of the bible they use to say being gay is sinful is the same part that says wearing 2 different types of fabics is a sin.. someone better check the priests at that school not only are some most likily gay them self..but i highly doubt they are all floating around in 100% cotton.

brian

This is an interesting one! I personally think the school has a right to discriminate based on whatever they want. They usually have something like, "We reserve the right to deny attendance for any reason" but the fact that the principal questioned them in such a manner is definitely an issue.

Under these circumstances, since the girls didn't say "It's none of your business" or "I'll answer your questions when my lawyer gets here" I would probably side with the school, although I totally disagree with their decision. But I'm really torn.

What I wonder is... Do they expel all students who sin? If not, then under the state law, they are discriminating. They let other sinners stay and even non-Christians and Jews... So I think the state has a case.

Bork goes on to write that the school did not want to seem tolerant to the two alleged lesbian students, as it could lead others into a similar relationship and the school has a spiritual and moral obligation to keep its students from sin.
...
"This is not a church, it is a fee-taking school," Hayes said. "They accept non-Christians and ... they accept Jews, who as a fundamental doctrine of their religion do not accept Jesus Christ. What can be more antithetical to Christianity than Judaism? California law says you cannot pick and choose who you discriminate against."

I'll be really interested to see how this one turns out. It's a tough one!

Under these circumstances, since the girls didn't say "It's none of your business" or "I'll answer your questions when my lawyer gets here" I would probably side with the school, although I totally disagree with their decision. But I'm really torn.

ok but remember one thing she didnt have to say anything she is a minor and he was asking a minor sexual questions what if she wasnt gay? what if he told her something her parents had sheltered her from (though i doubt in 2005 that is possible not to know) but like i said she is a minor.

brian

Originally posted by atomic811
ok but remember one thing she didnt have to say anything she is a minor and he was asking a minor sexual questions what if she wasnt gay? what if he told her something her parents had sheltered her from (though i doubt in 2005 that is possible not to know) but like i said she is a minor.

Yeah, I know. The school definitely handled it very badly and could be liable. If he had asked her about her feelings for a boy or having sex with a boy, he would most likely be in trouble, so should be in this case.

I wish they hadn't said anything. It's irrelevent whether they're gay or not. The school messed up.

But can they kick them out because she 'admitted' to being gay? I just don't know enough to say.

Originally posted by atomic811
first off i am gay and believe me it wasnt a choice ..i rather not be...

Well again this is an opinion, you may feel like you are and don’t want to be, but its still an opinion until it can be scientifically proven otherwise. There have been many gays that have become straight and spoken out against homosexuality after leaving the lifestyle. So lets just agree to disagree on this one, since its not going to go anywhere but into an argument.

Originally posted by atomic811
second the private schools get federal money...

They sure did not when I went there, and my parents still had to pay taxes toward public school at the same time.

Originally posted by atomic811
gay lobby i love that... its sorta like the gay agenda..people actually think i can turn someone gay.. its so far from the truth..no one got a free toaster for joining.. there is no gay agenda ect for people that are gay fighting for rights to be treated equal..

Not sure what world your living in, but there is defiantly an organized gay lobby in this one. They make war on any religion that calls their lifestyle sinful. They have lobbied to get the hate laws to include any religion that speaks out against homosexuality.

As a matter of fact there is a privately paid for religious broadcaster that buys time from a local station where I live, and back when he first went on the air he spoke out some about homosexuality. He almost immediately started getting calls wanting to know who his sponsors were. He found out through sources that they had planned to show up and picket his sponsors and humiliate them into not paying for his airtime. Then they found out that there was no-one to picket and the TV station could not stop him from broadcasting.

So don’t tell me that there is no organized lobby group for them.

Originally posted by atomic811
the same part of the bible they use to say being gay is sinful is the same part that says wearing 2 different types of fabics is a sin.. someone better check the priests at that school not only are some most likily gay them self..but i highly doubt they are all floating around in 100% cotton.

Were in the Ten Commandments does it say this?
In the Ten Commandments it states “thou shalt not commit adultery” which means don’t have sex with anyone but your spouse. It mentions fornication more times in the Bible then I care to try and post which is similarly having sex with someone that you’re not married to in the eyes of God. Marriage in Gods eyes is between man and woman, for the purpose of procreation, period.

Basically what I am saying is that it is in the Bible more then just one place. I would suggest you read the book before you start trying to tell me what is in it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What I wonder is... Do they expel all students who sin?

Of course not, no-one is without sin.
They will however excommunicate a repetitive unrepentant sinner, and that is what this falls under. It’s a life style, not like using the lords name in vain once in a while by accident.



[edit on 12/22/2005 by defcon5]

A private school can expell whom ever it wants to, for ANY reason. Because it is a private school.

If they want to spell all left handed people; let them!

-- Boat

My main concern with this issue is how it was handled by the principal and the school board. I don't dispute their right to have control over who is allowed to go to their school. In this day and age, imo, people just need to learn to be more careful how they go about things (am I one to talk, or what?).

The reason the handling of this issue by school administrators is my main concern is the obvious effect it must be having on the two girls in question. The article says they are each going to different schools now and are having a difficult time adjusting to what has happened. There is no clear indication that they are even lesbians, just the admission by one, under duress, that she 'loves' the other. That certainly doesn't mean they are having lesbian sex together.

Also, the Bible tells us that Christ came to call sinners, not the just. His love is for everyone, all the time. He also admonished us to "love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you." - from the Third Luminous Mystery

If they want to spell all left handed people; let them!

a-l-l l-e-f-t h-a-n-d-e-d p-e-o-p-l-e

There. I spelled it for them. Satisfied?

Happy Holidays and peace to you, Boatphoney.