Australian Freemasons win lawsuit against 'whistleblowers' site

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Well Mayet, nice to know you support police and others who actively coverup paedophilia and want people to believe that Reina Michaelson's work to do something about it is "poop".

I started to read but honestly when it got to the pont that freemasons= OTO= paedophiles, sorry I switched off. I think I explained why paedophiles are atracted to high positions of power but you didn't listen, you were to concerned to jump on your paedophile bandwagon and witch hunt. Lets go hunt a few freemasons down.... Its easy to point fingers and blame and to generalize. I guess the online iq test failed.

Deliberately directing people away from links to understanding, the depth of the 'problem' and connecting with those fighting it, is effectively supporting and protecting the monsters.

To tell you the truth i think you are allowing your own wicked experiences to dictate to yourself just what you take as truth. (I fully admit they were wicked horrid deeds that are deserving of the perpetrators castration) A person who is sick and is a mason did it, therefore all masons are evil paedophiles? That generalization is not denying any ignorance actually it is reminiscent of the witch hunts and trials. Links to understanding not, links to viscious lies and slander yes.

As I already mentioned the site is like ATS, (some wacked out views can be found on it, IMHO) so thats why I refered people to stories linked with Reina Michaelson.

Once again by the time you get to the parts that accuse these organizations, its time to switch off, therefore any semblance of truth is lost through the crap being dealt

Is sucking up to certain people on ATS, masons and Crowely worshipers like yourself, who don't like these issues discussed, really more important to you than waking people up to the high level interference that protects Organized Child Sex Rings?

Get it right puhleese number one, I suck up to no one. and any mason will tell you that I am the very last peron on their suck up list or sadly for that matter their christmas card list as well.. dang.

Crowley worshipper indeed? I worship no man. I happen to have deep respect for his works.

Its not about discussing issues, its about accusing the freemasonry and OTO of being Paedophiles, child sacrificers and worse as an organization. The Australian law system leaves a lot to be desired at times, but guess what .. they got it sooo right this time.

I actually did discuss issues, but once again you lost it in the libelous scandelous accusations. You are the one that refuses to accept, your standing there hand on hips stamping feet accusing the OTO and freemasonry of things they as an organization are not.

Obviously,yes. You couldn't dispute the the stories I refered to, so you did your best to tell people to remain ignorant, with your dribble strongly implying the stories lacked credibility.

I'll tell you straight out, stuff the implying bit .... due to the stupid ill informed gross slander of accusations any credibility the stories could have, has gone flying out the window.

The point of the stories is that it isn't just, odd sickos that find people of the same "sickness", but that our justice system is REFUSING to investigate. The only sickness these highly functioning people, involved in the child sex trade, have, is cold, selfish evil.

once again you missed the part where I gave reasons why these high profle people do it.. or more to the point why these people who do it ae attracted to high power posiions but you can't go around labelling everyone with the same brush.You are ill informed of freemasonry and very ill informed of the OTO and hey there is a bad apple in every bunch but you don't throw the good ones out.

You've painted a very brave, honest, caring, just picture of yourself by jumping to the defence some 'offended', on ATS. Pity you displayed the opposite attitude to the plight of powerless, voiceless sexually tortured babies and children, by trying to discredit and silence the voices speaking for them.

Really thanks for the painting but Im no artist. Some offended? Hunny it was out and out outrageous lies, slander and accusations. Im all for speaking out and defending the powerless.. but puhleese with the truth only ....

Isn't good, honest reporting impossible without balance, and democracy impossible without balanced reporting? Well untill these official reports and transcripts get the mainstream media coverage as their seriousness deserves, outlets like ATS and Gaiaguys, are the few where this tool of democracy can be exersized.

Thats right doesn't your hero, Crowely, have a 'low oppinion' of, 'democracy for all', or was that just printed by one of the many groups that follow his 'teachings'?

Balance is my middle name, but this is not balance, its so far out on the limb that the branch had no choice but to snap and fly back in their face.

While they paint a picture of viscious lies and slander, no medias gonna touch it with a barge pole. Its dirty accusations and dirty lies, honest reporting tends to keep that crap at arms length. My hero Crowley, hey do yourself a favour learn, read and gain some knowledge, you might surprise yourself and me in the meantime. Those articles are ignorance in it's finest form...... I'll deny that ignorance till the cows come home.

[edit on 22-12-2005 by Mayet]

You have voted Mayet for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Another brilliant post Mayet.

it's better than anything I came up with.

Mayet, I ask you any anyone else who bothered to read through your (deliberately?) "misleading" tyrade, to refere to my last post on the "Australian Conspiracies" thread, to learn what motivates me and where my priorities lie.

At this point I can only 'question' your balance (hard to have when "stomping with hands on hips"), compassion and "motivation", but the area of your 'passion' indicates, to me, it would be a fruitless exersize, unless I was after bitter, "tainted" fruit.

For the record, I have more than once, warned authorities about planned 'hits' on paedophiles evading justice by law, because I don't want the rare people of active, sympathies for the victims, jumping onto your "wandwagon".

The "witch hunt" is actually against the victims, who overwhelmingly get called 'crazy' and worse when ever they dare speak out or raise the issue, like you and your ilk do to me (and others who've presented sound arguements) regardless of how unimpassioned my posts or how many concessions I give to 'your side'.

See, I can use negative emotion eliciting 'catch words', that deafen and blind people to the facts too, but I'd rather discuss the issue at hand.

You "declared" the judgement was, "sooo right". Were you privey to all relevent details of the case or did you even concider those known but excluded from being heared?

Did the documented evidence of 'mishandling' and losing evidence, refusing to interview witnesses, corruption (on the side of perpetrators) in authorities involved and a host of other facts of this and related cases, 'taint' this 'result', of a number of attempts to 'win'?

These are rhetorical questions intended to reopen the thinking, you tried to shout and shut down, on the overall issue covered by the title of the thread.

To those who don't want to be told what to think; read the many documented reports and correspondences with police and government officials, involving Reina Michaelson, before forming your own opinion of who's 'credible' and what their 'agenda' is.

You have voted Mayet for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

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Originally posted by suzy ryan

You "declared" the judgement was, "sooo right". Were you privey to all relevent details of the case or did you even concider those known but excluded from being heared?

Did the documented evidence of 'mishandling' and losing evidence, refusing to interview witnesses, corruption (on the side of perpetrators) in authorities involved and a host of other facts of this and related cases, 'taint' this 'result', of a number of attempts to 'win'?

These are rhetorical questions intended to reopen the thinking, you tried to shout and shut down, on the overall issue covered by the title of the thread.

To those who don't want to be told what to think; read the many documented reports and correspondences with police and government officials, involving Reina Michaelson, before forming your own opinion of who's 'credible' and what their 'agenda' is.

Yes Nygdan, after answering of topic stuff put to me, I was asking folk to not only get back on topic, but read the relevant, related stories, before forming opinions.
You know what happens if you don't answer direct questions...

So I'm asking, is there anyone out there who's read the history of the facts behind the 'judgement' and still thinks there was nothing 'odd' or 'off' about "them" 'winning' that 'judgement', and victims not even having witnesses interviewed or their cases persued with full dilegence?

For a conspiracy site, I'm amazed at how few people want to even look into, this massive conspiracy of silence.

Originally posted by Mayet
Links to understanding not, links to viscious lies and slander yes
[edit on 22-12-2005 by Mayet]

How did I miss this!
I repeatedly mentioned people should look up the " 'links' to do with 'Reina Michaelson' ".

As a fellow Australian, with interest in conspiracies, you would have had to be aware of her but IF not, she was a major key to the story of this topic. Did you read the things your declared, "vicious lies and slander"? If not why did you make this declaration? Was Reina Michaelson already an 'enemy' of yours due to work she does?

She was the first one to make the main stream news on this topic, with OTO out to sue her personally, in May '95.

She's an Internationally respected professional, who was a Young Australian of the Year, who has avoided damage to her reputation, DESPITE paedophiles, and their supporters, trying to destroy her and the work she does to protect children from abuse, BECAUSE "slander and vicious lies" are so not a part of who she is. She would not taint, getting "the truth no one wants to hear", out there, with a hint of dishonesty.

I'm sure she couldn't be bothered suing you over this "vicious slander and lie" but I wouldn't bet that's the case with others sharing in her work, and Masonic Light, your "awarding" that "slanderous" post, when the facts were available from those links on this very topic, puts you in the picture also.

Now I know Mods. can't catch everything, hell I missed it, but I do think these posters, at least, deserve a "warn". Hammer me all you like, but I can't let an attack on this woman, the daughter of a Mason, go unchallenged.

This is the sort of "deliberately" reckless, reputation harming, that goes on all the time, by those working to discredit, people who would expose Organized Paedophile Rings and a prime example of why people should, seriously question, the "soundness" of the judgement, in the topic of this thread.

Originally posted by suzy ryan

She's an Internationally respected professional, who was a Young Australian of the Year, who has avoided damage to her reputation, DESPITE pedophiles, and their supporters, trying to destroy her and the work she does to protect children from abuse, BECAUSE "slander and vicious lies" are so not a part of who she is. She would not taint, getting "the truth no one wants to hear", out there, with a hint of dishonesty.

She also had the same information about the O.T.O. that the gaila guys site had. But she did remove it when she received a letter from the O.T.O.'s lawyers. I'm of the opinion she was suckered in by the gaila guys.


And I really wish you would stop inferring people of my faith are somehow supporting pedophiles.


Nygdan, err... Unless I missunderstand your intentions, we are on topic the "freemasons" referred to in the subject of this thread are the O.T.O.

[edit on 12/23/2005 by Cug]

Just an update.

The Australian O.T.O. has a new press release.

In it they state that the people behind the gala guys site have now reported them (The O.T.O.) as a Terrorist organization to the Australian National Security Hotline. And a new defamation suit has been filed.

And for the Michaelson part of the case

Michaelson’s “defence” essentially reiterated her original claims. Denying any wrong doing at all she claims not to be the author of the original document published on her website and has tried to invoke the defences provided for in the legislation - claiming her publication was a bona fide religious activity and done in the public interest. She claims that her "exposure of the nature or the true nature of a religious teaching or religious text (and in particular the Book of the Law and the book Magick in Theory and Practice...) does not constitute an act of vilification." Michaelson’s barrister defended the Christian Catch the Fire Ministry, a Christian group, in a previous case where two of its members vilified Islam. In that case the barrister argued that Islam was an unlawful religion because it advocated violence. That argument, rejected by the court, has been recycled against Thelema. She repeatedly clumped "Thelema and Satanism and Crowleyism" together - perhaps in her world view all three are the same.

You can find the full press release here (it's a 3 page PDF)
www.lashtal.com...

Thanks for that latest information Cug.

This is also interesting;

"Stooping to a new low, Peter Koenig has provided Legg and Devine a stolen document which contained the contact details (names, addresses and telephone numbers) dating from the mid 1990s of OTO members and others, which remains posted online. Legg and Devine have also made a report to the Australian National Security Hotline claiming that we are a terrorist organization. In the face of these actions we have filed new defamation suits against these people and are enforcing the original judgments through bankruptcy actions. Legg and Devine continue to accuse us of every event that intrudes into their lives, including vandalising their post box , flying unmarked jets and helicopters over their property, controlling the weather and organizing a Government proposal for a four lane highway 200 metres from their house. In all honesty, it wasn’t us! They remain in disbelief that a magistrate in the initial hearing against them found their allegations “bizarre” and their defence “embarrassing.”

www.lashtal.com... (page 3)

Sounds about right if you read the gaiaguys site, although some topics were addressed with a question mark. But putting private addresses online for everyone to see and start a campaign against them is not only extremely rude but putting someone in potential danger too.

[edit on 24-12-2005 by TerraX]

I like how they are inferring that the O.T.O. is making crop circles.

and a FYI about Peter Koenig. It's a bit of an odd story but he has a site that has on one hand one of the best pre-Crowley O.T.O. histories on it. On the other hand he has an almost rabid hatred for what he calls the "Caliphate" O.T.O.* (The largest order, about 5000 members) but he seems to support some of the other "O.T.O.s" and O.T.O. like orders. He hates the Caliphate so much he is willing to support anything that will make the O.T.O. look bad. Sorta of a throwing the baby out with the bathwater thing.


*A little background. in the 70-80's there was a big todo over who is the "real" O.T.O. between several groups. It ended up in court and the "Caliphate" won. This was followed by many years of online flamewars that continue to this day. It was the reaction of the other groups that told me who was the real O.T.O.

[edit on 12/24/2005 by Cug]

So are we saying that Reina is a Christian and just because the OTO is different and she hasn't studied their works with an unbiased mind, she is passing judgement upon them? Oh so wrong on so many levels Reina.

What was that about Islam being unlawful? Wow whatever this lady may do good in some quarters certainly gets ruined by that ignorance which takes mankind backwards with that mindset and ignorance.

If Reina feels she should attacks Magick in T&P and the Book of the Law she makes a sad figure indeed and shows how full of fears, ignorance and bias she is. Sounds to me like she should have been born in the 1400's and could have reported all her neighbours into the witch trials. All those pagans burning away merrily on the stake... sounds like thats right up her tree, right out to the twig shes hanging onto on that limb....

To be honest, if shes so worried about paedophilia, go clean up the christian churches lady, and learn some things before you stick your beak into other religions and beliefs.



[edit on 24-12-2005 by Mayet]

Originally posted by suzy ryan

Originally posted by Mayet
Links to understanding not, links to viscious lies and slander yes
[edit on 22-12-2005 by Mayet]

How did I miss this!
I repeatedly mentioned people should look up the " 'links' to do with 'Reina Michaelson' ".

As a fellow Australian, with interest in conspiracies, you would have had to be aware of her but IF not, she was a major key to the story of this topic. Did you read the things your declared, "vicious lies and slander"? If not why did you make this declaration? Was Reina Michaelson already an 'enemy' of yours due to work she does?

She was the first one to make the main stream news on this topic, with OTO out to sue her personally, in May '95.

She's an Internationally respected professional, who was a Young Australian of the Year, who has avoided damage to her reputation, DESPITE paedophiles, and their supporters, trying to destroy her and the work she does to protect children from abuse, BECAUSE "slander and vicious lies" are so not a part of who she is. She would not taint, getting "the truth no one wants to hear", out there, with a hint of dishonesty.

I'm sure she couldn't be bothered suing you over this "vicious slander and lie" but I wouldn't bet that's the case with others sharing in her work, and Masonic Light, your "awarding" that "slanderous" post, when the facts were available from those links on this very topic, puts you in the picture also.

Now I know Mods. can't catch everything, hell I missed it, but I do think these posters, at least, deserve a "warn". Hammer me all you like, but I can't let an attack on this woman, the daughter of a Mason, go unchallenged.

This is the sort of "deliberately" reckless, reputation harming, that goes on all the time, by those working to discredit, people who would expose Organized Paedophile Rings and a prime example of why people should, seriously question, the "soundness" of the judgement, in the topic of this thread.

Hey if she wants to sue me go right ahead, shes more than welcome to because I will gladly publicly show her for the ill informed ignorant she is.

Who the heck cares if she is the daughter of a mason, I remember more masonic christmas parties when I was a kid than I can poke a stick at, I got to sit on santas knee, I used to sit on all my uncles knees too and listen to them chat while playing with their bullet holes, one of my other uncles is a minister and he is a mason, or is it his twin thats the mason, no I think both twins are masons, although no wait one just died..so maybe that leaves only one of them as masons, but then they have sons too..... hmm I lose track of my masonic family at times, too many of the little lambskinned ones to count.

and my grandfather was a mason, so really "daghter of a mason" has got sweet Frig All. to do with the subject matter in question. And in all my rich childhood of masonic family experiences, Im afraid no one tried anything untowards on me, or my sisters, or my cousins.....

You still dont get it do you Suzy, that because lady friend is out there on a limb making false accusations and showing her religous bigotry, she is never ever going to be taken seriously. How can you take anyone serious that displays such bias and produces such falsehoods.

Its got nothing to do with Paedophilia in any way shape and form, its got to do with her misguided slanderous lies. Once you get to that part, she might as well be saying to me something like "god made her do it", I'll just shake my head, dismiss anything else shes got to say and close the page.

I am rather disturbed to see the following quotes from Crowley's "Book of Law".

"I think the public interest in "crimes passionels" is envy. The dull brutes wish that they could feel like that."

"Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was." - OTO Book of the Law

"The system of the Book of the Law is aristocratic; I am an aristocrat. A better word for democracy is ochlocracy - the rule of the mob. It all depends whether you want quantity or quality. Are you going to produce sonnets or Sunday newspapers?" - Red Flame Crowley quote.

"We live in a time of insane excitement; we count that day lost when less than 50,000 harmless people have met with death in its most horrible forms, and even that is rather homely fare; plentiful sauce of rape, torture, and cold-blooded murders on the largest scale must be poured over the dish to make is truly piquant, and send us to bed, patting our stomachs, with the reflection that life need not be dull and monotonous, after all."

From www.gaiaguys.net...

In all fairness sometimes things are written in a particular context, for example in satire. But if look at a number of quotes then I'm left with the impression that Alistair Crowley is a couple of cans short of a six-pack. Some statements are just plain rude and extremely excentric. No wonder some people see "evil".

"Allegedly" there is an OTO working that Crowley perfected that involves sodomizing young children to vampirize their life force energy. Some sort of Typhonian sex magicK ritual according to William Schoebelen.

Originally posted by TerraX
I am rather disturbed to see the following quotes from Crowley's "Book of Law".

"I think the public interest in "crimes passionels" is envy. The dull brutes wish that they could feel like that."

"Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was." - OTO Book of the Law

In all fairness sometimes things are written in a particular context, for example in satire. But if look at a number of quotes then I'm left with the impression that Alistair Crowley is a couple of cans short of a six-pack. Some statements are just plain rude and extremely excentric. No wonder some people see "evil".

You see evil because you do not understand. Evil is a christian concept. There is no evil, there is nature. Nature is just.

I could pick quotes out of the bible that when they are displayed by themselves as such, look much worse than what you have quoted above.

and Crowley is only too glad of leaving you with that expression. I think he too personal delight to shock people. Personally I would give the man a hug for creating such occult masterpieces.

Oh dear should I say that, now everyones going to think Im a wicked evil woman. A Dark Occultist...well no, let see yesterday I helped a lady carry a pram off the bus..no one else sitting there moved to assist including the christians sitting there. And then I gave my seat up to an old aboriginal lady who looked really tired...no one else even looked at her in offer and mind you I juggled a baby in my arms and even my crippled daughter stood up to offer her seat..no one else did at all.

Last night I took my kids for a walk around the neighbourhood to enjoy the chriistmas lights and to sing christmas carols, the stars were out, weather was balmy and I breathed deeply, thankful to be alive and to experience this beautiful life.

If you look for evil, then you will find it, if you look for good you will find that. If you find that Crowley work scares you then he is not for you. Each to his own.

I really think that a person sitting there for the first time with such a book and picking out parts to interpret in the way they want is kinda lost. I still find something new in the book everytime I pick it up and I have had my copy for12 years now. How many years of studying the bible and interpreting its words does it take to be called expert?

Now back to subject at hand Reina... I have read parts of her website and will go back later to other parts. Sadly she should have stuck to her Maldives campaignsa and the age old police corruption she is so vocal about.

Oh one thing she does say is shes trusts Police commissioner Chistine Nixon, have fun Reina there. and Suzy if you are in contact with Reina, next time tell her Mayet said beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.


After reading through, She does have a case with the police tampering, but her allegations about the OTO have been put together in her own head and she accuses the OTO of being the illuminati.... she made those conclusions herself.. if she wishes to conclude that, I am sure the real OTO will go out of their way to assist her to get to the bottom of her OTO suspicions. I am sure they do not want to be associated with such "bad Apples" in their bunch. She needs to furnish proof and if she lost a court case over the OTO I'd say she has none.. its easy for anyone with dark hearts to use something and twist it for their own purposes. I could call OTO and sacrifice a few goats too....














[edit on 24-12-2005 by Mayet]

Taken from the guiguys site get a load of this. Its a letter to the guiguys site in responce to their writings on the OTO. ---
www.gaiaguys.net...

As for being Satanists we deny this. We make any Satanism look like a two year old crying baby, relatively speaking. We sincerely believe the world must be bathed in blood before the Law of Thelema is generally accepted. See Magick in Theory and Practice and the chapter
on the Bloody Sacrifice for further details.

Thank you again for your page on the O.T.O.. I really enjoyed it!

Love is the law, love under will

Cordially,
David Bersson

Merry Christmas everyone.




[edit on 24-12-2005 by TgSoe]

Originally posted by TerraX
I am rather disturbed to see the following quotes from Crowley's "Book of Law".

That's part of the problem.. only one passage you listed is from the Book of the Law.
Here is a link to it oto-usa.org... Please read it (it's not that long) and not some random quotes from a site like gg's.

You will probably still be disturbed but at least you will read it with no partical quotes.

"I think the public interest in "crimes passionels" is envy. The dull brutes wish that they could feel like that."

This is from a diary entry on October 27th 1930 (It's from a page of Crowley quotes online) But without the context of what he was talking about I'd could only offer a guess what he is talking about. (I'd wager he is talking about the general population who cant feel passion)

"Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was." - OTO Book of the Law

First thing it's not the O.T.O. Book of the Law. All Thelemites consider the BoL to be their main holy book, even the ones who hate the O.T.O.
The Full verse is:

II,58: Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other. Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was. Yet there are masked ones my servants: it may be that yonder beggar is a King. A King may choose his garment as he will: there is no certain test: but a beggar cannot hide his poverty.

As a Thelemite I am prohibited from offering my interpretation of what the Book of the Law means. The meaning is to be decided by everyone for themselves with the help of Crowley's writing. But there is a loophole, I can comment on Crowley's comment of this verse.

In a nutshell what Crowley said what the first half of the verse (Including the part quoted by the gg website) and the verse before it are talking about is how everybody has a "True Will" that they must follow and you can not change. (if you try to change it things will start going wrong). About the second half it's pretty much "you cant judge a book by it's cover."

"The system of the Book of the Law is aristocratic; I am an aristocrat. A better word for democracy is ochlocracy - the rule of the mob. It all depends whether you want quantity or quality. Are you going to produce sonnets or Sunday newspapers?" - Red Flame Crowley quote.

This is from a letter from Crowley, in reply to Grady McMurtry's letter of July 28th, '43 (damn obscure stuff, it took a bit to find the source )

Crowley had quite a liking for the then popular idea of social Darwinism (AKA The Law of the Jungle)... IMHO he was wrong but non the less that was something he seemed to like. It's also a good example of how Thelemites view Crowley. He is not our "God", he was a human and like all humans he could put his foot in his mouth. Another thing to consider is that Crowley himself would have little to do with anyone who were slavish followers. One of the main ideas of his system of Magick was for the individual to prove it for himself, and not to accept anything just because someone said so.

"We live in a time of insane excitement; we count that day lost when less than 50,000 harmless people have met with death in its most horrible forms, and even that is rather homely fare; plentiful sauce of rape, torture, and cold-blooded murders on the largest scale must be poured over the dish to make is truly piquant, and send us to bed, patting our stomachs, with the reflection that life need not be dull and monotonous, after all."

Another letter to the above person (who latter became the head of the O.T.O.

After this he talks about how hard it is to get people to stop and still the mind (Yoga) Durring the years of WWII because of all the "excitement" of the war.

On a slightly related point in The Book of the Law it states that before the new aeon comes on it's own there will be bloodshed. And it in fact happend, the 4 times he published the BoL in his lifetime a war was started within 9 months

Some statements are just plain rude and extremely excentric. No wonder some people see "evil".

Yeppers... Crowley was quite rude at times (Especial if he wasn't fond of you). And personally I don't care if they think he was "evil". I do care a great deal when it is just pure rubbish like the stuff in this thread.

Originally posted by Snake Plissken
"Allegedly" there is an OTO working that Crowley perfected that involves sodomizing young children to vampirize their life force energy. Some sort of Typhonian sex magicK ritual according to William Schoebelen.

Got to love those Chick tracts

Originally posted by TgSoe
Cordially,
David Bersson

Bersson is the head of one of the "O.T.O.'s" that lost the court case the S.O.T.O., it's something I call "Order Wars" too much bile in those to take them seriously.