The case for God's existance...

So... cuz we can't explaine EVERYTHING or have ALL the answer's in the known universe in the short time mankind has actually been studying thing's that *prove's* god is real and created us?

Ok, let's entertain this thought perspective. Becuase I can't point out the missing link or explain more of the complexities of life, that's undoubtly proof of God. Ok cool...

Weeeell, let's take that in retrospect and look at the religious people. You've never seen your god, never heard your god, and anything they can't explain is attributed to being a miracle performed by god.

What I'd truly like to know is WHY do religous people, who all can't even agree on this supposed ONE god, hafta attack science like it's the plauge.

Science never admitted to having all the answer's.
Science never claimed ultimate truth.
Science admit's it's wrong.

Religion... Claims to have all the answer's.
Religion claims ultimate truth.
Religion very rarely will admit to it's own stupidity i.e, we're the center of the universe.
Religion, the supposed belief in one god can't even accept itself and has splintered into differing stories and idea's of this one god. Seriously, one god = one story or did I just miss the complete point of ONE god religion?

You claim so much, yet have so little to show. Your answer, you can't know god. That's a sweet way into getting out of expliaining thing's

amazing point. when it was found that piltdown man was a hoax, the scientific community let out a communal "our bad" at their mistake. science involves trial and error, but religion involves absolutes and faith in the face of evidence.

the scientific community has always, and always will own up to it's own fault's. That's the one major thing that seperate's us from religion. With religion, when it come's to evidence AGAINST them, they deny it. The date's are wrong. The devil made dinosaur's. We're the center of the universe (for atleast 2000 years till they gave in to FACTUAL REALITY). Or, because we can't possibly know everything there is to know in the whole 200 year's we've really made ANY real scientific progress in learning about our universe, that right there just scream's of proof of god. You kno... just like 3000 years ago Zues was really the one who made lightning ... Till we GREW UP!

Religion has always existed. Mankind CREATED religion. Religion didn't create man. The whole point of religion was man's first step's into science. A way to explain away those lil thing's about life we didn't have the answer's to. We're did we come from, why do we have lightning, what is death.

The only reason god is the major religion now is because the much OLDER religion's were mostly killed off. Thousand's of innocent people KILLED in the name of the lord. Why? Becuase they didn't believe. That and ONLY that is the reason god is still around, and sumday in the future, god will die out as a religion itself. It's how religion's work. They're a fad, the "in" thing to do at the time of they're existence. It's been that way since the dawn of man, and it'll be that way till the end of man. Unless hopefully the government's of the world outlaw religion for taking they're crap to far and hindering alot of scientific progress that could save our ass's in the future.

Originally posted by PhoenixByrd
Science never admitted to having all the answer's.
Science never claimed ultimate truth.
Science admit's it's wrong.

Religion... Claims to have all the answer's.
Religion claims ultimate truth.
Religion very rarely will admit to it's own stupidity i.e, we're the center of the universe.
Religion, the supposed belief in one god can't even accept itself and has splintered into differing stories and idea's of this one god. Seriously, one god = one story or did I just miss the complete point of ONE god religion?

You claim so much, yet have so little to show. Your answer, you can't know god. That's a sweet way into getting out of expliaining thing's

This is one of the best points that you can make. Religion has definitely had its share of mistakes. Christians included. How often do you hear there deep apologies?

Everyone knows a "know-it-all". Sometimes people might consider me that!! For the most part, people take what they have to say with a grain of salt. I know I do. They have an answer for anything. Often, they look like ridiculous fools. It kinda relates here. If religion would own up to its mistakes, and work in conjunction with the scientific community, it wouldn't be as big of a problem to people. However, that will never happen.

Phoenixbyrd, I argue those same points constantly. When you allow yourself to be put into the shoes of someone who had no science, you can see the development of gods, and religion. They had no choice. I just hit on this point in another thread.

This is a good thread.

That's the thing. Religion will NOT admit it's wrong until it's too late and they're made to look stupid, again... the whole center of the universe thing. Mankind is NOT special. Not that special atleast lol.

If religion DID work WITH science and not against it to understand our universe, thing's would be much better, and atleast then they would start to realize that the bible is full of ingnorant information written by primitive man who had no clue how the universe works.

And they did have a choice with religion. They had the decision to learn and test thing's or to just write it off as the work of a higher being and then create a whole ruling cast of priest's and instill fear into people if they didn't follow the teaching's of these priest's.

And if you haven't noticed... Not a single religous person has disputed me and said I'm wrong and explained why. I'm sure eventually sumone will tho.

I would have to counter that people haven't seem or heared the "science" that "proves" their contention, 'there is no God'.

Infact most, including scientists haven't even seen or heared proof of aspects of science they accept, but the "reports" of others findings, which they choose to believe and base more belief and science on.

Now science keeps changing to accommodate new findings and there is also contention between scientists and fields of science, like the way they "don't like" that the mathematical equation for "everything" ONLY works when it contains "the God element" without which it collapses into nonsence.

Now you contend that people of faith haven't seen or heared God yet the ancient, continuous, faiths of people of the tribes of Israel and gentile peoples of the Christian faiths base their beliefs on "the reports" of others who have seen and heared God.

Indeed, even ancient faiths that are counter to those of Judeo/Christian faiths have traditions of when God was on earth which supports the Judeo/Christian reports that people have been deceived and lead astray since being ousted from Eden.

Myself, I'll keep in faith of the continuous reports of The One who made all that is, warned Adam as to how to keep living, wrestled with Jacob and changed his name to Israel, spoke to Moses, returned in the flesh to remind all, the offer of the perfect immortal life Adam rejected, is still on offer to ALL and has kept the 'scientific' laws of nature constant during the whole of mortal mans existance on earth.

Good science depends on good sources to build on. I trust and know no better source than The Creator of all there is, that science peeps at in parts here and there, constantly creating contentions over parts that don't fit their views that are kept limited by those natural laws and the endless vastness of all that is, parts that merrily keep working by the laws that have always been, despite science not understanding them, let alone having any influence on.

Science can't "create", no matter how clever it gets. It can only take the natural and "change" it through "destuction", tearing, cutting, breaking, imploding, exploding, etc., constant componants created by God, and recombining those now out of place parts into something DEAD.

Christ, our Creator, is the way to eternal LIFE.

P.S. Could the title of this thread be a deliberate seduction, to lead those seeking to understand God, astray?
It is The Opposite of the the arguement you offer.

Opposites, reversals, inversions, mirroring are all favourite tools of The Opposer of God because he wants the world to believe up is down, black is white, good is bad, he is god and life is death so that all will seek death thinking they are trying to live.

[edit on 19-12-2005 by suzy ryan]

Suzy,

Your right, scientist do fight in a way with each other over who think's who is right or on the right track. BUT, that's what science is, QUESTIONING EVERYTHING. Religion isn't about questioning, it's about blind faith. And the whole one god religion that started 2000 sum odd years ago has splintered off showing that this whole thing is pure nonsense. You can't have it both way's in a monotheistic religion. Monotheism means ONE god, not twelve different splintered stories of one god.

Yes, people have in ancient time's claimed to have heard god ... People in ancient time's also took drug's to gain an enlightened state of mind to have vision's. To see and hear the supernatural. 2000 years later, you'd think god would still speak to us as much as he did in the bible. But he doesn't. Why? Oh ... I kno the answer! We cannot know god's intention's or how he works. We just have to have faith that he is there with us in our hearts and souls and we have to live good live's so we don't goto hell and rot/burn for an eternity ...

Sounds right to me ...

Your questions are answered in The Bible and our experience (obsevation and testing, tools of science) of life in this current worldly system.

Due to mans rejection of God, Our Father, as the Head of the "Family", He allowed The Opposer (who I'll call by one of his many names, satan) to rule, as we kept asking for, because God is not a bully but wants ALL to "freely" choose His offer of eternal Life.

Despite God's repeated calls to man to trust Him to redeem us from death and suffering (in our prefection after resurrection, not this damaged existance) man as a whole kept rejecting God so He allowed us all to experiance mortal existance under under satan's rule so we could all see the results and end of what following him offers; injustice, hate, greed, selfishness, CONFUSSION, suffering and death.

However as God is Perfect Love and Perfect Justice. He still offers us ALL the choise of redemption into Eternally Perfect Existance. No one is excluded from that offer as there are two resurrections, when those who have yet to see and understand the truth, will, before they make "their" final "choise"; Eternal, prefect Life or the second, permanent, death.

The eternal pit is for immortals, like satan and the angels who follow him, because they are immortal and cannot die. No unending torture for any who died in the first life without understanding. That's why God kept Adam from the tree of life, because He loves us too much to risk that fate for us.

Rather than being 'favoured', those who see, hear and believe, in these fleshly lives, have a greater duty to be examples of a just life that will be, in perfection, when He returns to rule.

Faith in God is about questioning. Questioning what is just, what is good, what is love, what is 'profitable', what is Law etc. and the answers are to be found in His creations(the science of nature and it's Laws) but those without the Spirit to see, hear and understand keep heeping confussion upon confussion rather than broadening their view to clearly see the whole.

Trust in things unseen is no more "blind faith" than trusting the air we breath keeps us alive. Before the Laws that make that so, were 'discovered', man still needed to breath to live.

As to drug induced based faiths, how successfull have their cultures been? Ancient history should tell you what God thinks of seeking Him that way.

It is the "false" 'Christian' religions that teach God as a "mystery". He warned us not to be mislead by them. The answers are there for those who search with their whole hearts and MINDS.

The 'discoveries' of science have far from challenged my faith but rather, strenghthed it. So much of what was 'mysterious' about The Bible in the past is explained and supported by the Bible, e.g. we still can't predict the weather, as The Bible said would be the case, despite having studied it, for our very livelyhoods, since the first rains fell on man.

I keep questioning and don't accept "conclussions" that proclaim there is no God, because they can't be made without ALL knowledge of EVERYTHING. To do so would be very unscientific.

It's funny, the double standards of the faithless.

They keep asking Christians to provide every answer to every question, and if we miss a point, every other is rejected. However science has more questions than answers yet we're called, "blind fools", if we don't put our whole faith in it.

When we do answer question they have an issue with, they ignor it and pull out another from their pile of confussion, yet when we ask, "What has man ever "created?" and, "What has man 'made' that didn't first require the "destruction" of something already in existance?", those who do answer say, "Wait, trust us, have faith we will." That is putting faith in satan's lie. He is after all, also called The Destroyer.

Even The Bible, which touches on every aspect of life (now, before and after) tells us to keep searching, observing, studying and testing, all the while also useing discernment.

I just don't see what's so uninteligent about that advice and trusting The One Who gave it.

[edit on 19-12-2005 by suzy ryan]

Originally posted by suzy ryan

P.S. Could the title of this thread be a deliberate seduction, to lead those seeking to understand God, astray?
It is The Opposite of the the arguement you offer.

Opposites, reversals, inversions, mirroring are all favourite tools of The Opposer of God because he wants the world to believe up is down, black is white, good is bad, he is god and life is death so that all will seek death thinking they are trying to live.

[edit on 19-12-2005 by suzy ryan]

i think that's straight up accusing PhoenixByrd of being an agent of satan!

if there is a god. why were we given a questioning mind?

I agree with you suzy... thanks for taking a stand.

Whats really interesting is that scientists such as Sir Isaac Newton were really involved with theology and religion. They must have come to the conlcusion sometime that there are powers greater than we know, i.e. a God.

Judging from my experiences, I see coincidences and occurences that make me believe in god. There are times when I'm feeling down and something always seems to come a long and pick me up. This is not my sole reason for believing, but somethings are just very unlikely to happen but they always seem to for me. I would like to say its because I treat people kindly and generously but I dont know why good things happen to me.

It is true that you can see things if you look hard enough, but that can sometimes be a good thing.

I question athiests about their knowledge and intelligence, how much have they read about religion. The Old Testament, the Quran, the Tora, Hindu scripts, Bhuddist scripts? I myself do not believe that being christian is the right way to be religous and I also can not doubt the validity of any religion because I don't know about it.

People... make your opinions after seeing both sides fairly.

Learn about Newton thoughts, I would say he is somewhat intelligent, but that does not make him correct.... www.isaac-newton.org...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by suzy ryan

P.S. Could the title of this thread be a deliberate seduction, to lead those seeking to understand God, astray?
It is The Opposite of the the arguement you offer.

Opposites, reversals, inversions, mirroring are all favourite tools of The Opposer of God because he wants the world to believe up is down, black is white, good is bad, he is god and life is death so that all will seek death thinking they are trying to live.

[edit on 19-12-2005 by suzy ryan]

i think that's straight up accusing PhoenixByrd of being an agent of satan!

if there is a god. why were we given a questioning mind?

We are all "agents of satan" in that we are all imperfect and subject to being deceived. "Flipping" is a "tool" used by satan "against us", just as propaganda is a tool used by politicions and despots against us.

That's why Christ taught us not to judge, as only God knows what, in our hearts, motivates us. Even we don't know what causes us to form the opinions we do and so we should not even judge ourselves. God offers us mercifull forgivness for all the lies we were deceived into telling ourselves.

He gave us a questioning mind to reason things like this out, and so not be lead to the second death, that satan is trying to seduce and terrify us into accepting, when he comes as an angel of light offering to save us from the many false doctrines he's spread about the world claiming to be from God.

It's satan's false doctrines that have contaminated all religions and satan has made people blame God.
God always said satan was The Most cunning.

OH NO! the boogyman, :cough: i mean, um, satan, is coming to get us!!!!

if you ask me, satan seems like he has some good points. then again, nothing can be purely evil if you honestly believe a purely good, divine source, created it.

this all just sounds like thought control in the form of fear mongering. if satan is so smart, why would he even think about going up against an all powerful being?

satan (and god) are pretty much a bunch of superstitious hoo-y to stop people from taking responsibility for their action.

Originally posted by suzy ryanThat's why God kept Adam from the tree of life, because He loves us too much to risk that fate for us.

I find this to be very interesting.
As many people have not idea of the true tale of man's exile form Eden and have no idea that the serpent was telling the turth to Eve. Rather, they don't see that us being "like god" is not the same as us being god, and that becoming like god wouldn't have been a good thing(it wouldn't for hte reasons you explained).

Originally posted by suzy ryan
It's funny, the double standards of the faithless.

They keep asking Christians to provide every answer to every question, and if we miss a point, every other is rejected. However science has more questions than answers yet we're called, "blind fools", if we don't put our whole faith in it.

When we do answer question they have an issue with, they ignor it and pull out another from their pile of confussion, yet when we ask, "What has man ever "created?" and, "What has man 'made' that didn't first require the "destruction" of something already in existance?", those who do answer say, "Wait, trust us, have faith we will." That is putting faith in satan's lie. He is after all, also called The Destroyer.

Even The Bible, which touches on every aspect of life (now, before and after) tells us to keep searching, observing, studying and testing, all the while also useing discernment.

I just don't see what's so uninteligent about that advice and trusting The One Who gave it.

[edit on 19-12-2005 by suzy ryan]

you don't seem to understand science.

science = trial and error. it never claims to have all the answers, only reasonable conclusions based on data collected from experiments. if the data is proven false, scientists keep trying until they figure out what went wrong and why.

religion = blind faith. it claims to have all the answers. end of story. it never admits fault.

scientists are able to admit fault, but it seems that you aren't ready to admit to any faults in christianity.

Madnessinmysoul, I'll concider you were making a counter point and not just fobbing off Scriture most don't expound.

Far from not taking responsability, the faith teaches that we will all be judged, by God, for the motivation of our hearts, ahead of the actions it produces.

Just as those who 'love' being 'good Christians' just so they can swan around in 'heaven' saying, "I am so good", will 'get a serve' from God for not being 'right' in their heart, so will those who 'do what they will' because God in His infinite Mercy will forgive them.

Both of these attitudes are fed to us by The Opposer because part of his evil is spite, envy and jealousy, and knowing he is ultimately 'going down', he wants to take as many with him as possible.

Madnessinmysoul, I do understand science, very well. I had to rely on understanding it for a living.

You however don't seem to understand English and it's related fields, as you argued something I wasn't saying and closed with your opinion as statement of fact.

Please just go back and read what I was really saying in all those posts as they do cover alot of the 'issues' people have with their tainted perceptions of what the faith actually teaches.

It is not "blind" but "requires" constant observation, study, testing and discernment, all tools of science.

suzy, you're not acknoweldging how religion fails to admit fault, yet science openly states that all the answers aren't known,

So you missed all the bits about, "we don't know everything so we shouldn't judge", and I won't repeat all the other points I've already posted other than to say Christianity teaches us not to declare God to be sadistic because just because we don't like any aspects of our monumentaly limited view.

Originally posted by PhoenixByrd
Weeeell, let's take that in retrospect and look at the religious people. You've never seen your god, never heard your god, and anything they can't explain is attributed to being a miracle performed by god.

What I'd truly like to know is WHY do religous people, who all can't even agree on this supposed ONE god, hafta attack science like it's the plauge.

Science never admitted to having all the answer's.
Science never claimed ultimate truth.
Science admit's it's wrong.

Religion... Claims to have all the answer's.
Religion claims ultimate truth.
Religion very rarely will admit to it's own stupidity i.e, we're the center of the universe.
Religion, the supposed belief in one god can't even accept itself and has splintered into differing stories and idea's of this one god. Seriously, one god = one story or did I just miss the complete point of ONE god religion?

You claim so much, yet have so little to show. Your answer, you can't know god. That's a sweet way into getting out of expliaining thing's

Ok...first of all you start of with an incredibly weak arguement "You've never seen your god, never heard your god, and anything they can't explain is attributed to being a miracle performed by god"....first of all...have you ever seen your brain? have you ever heard your brain? touched it? smelled it? tasted it?....With your logic i must have to say that you have no brain....just because something doesnt appear directly to your senses doesnt mean that it doesnt exist...and you say that what we can't explain is attributed to a miracle performed by God?...that is ridiculous...There is scientific proof that God exists and I would be more then happy to prove to you that Christianity is true.

You also say that religion claims to have all the answers...I beleive you are sadly mistaken...Religion claims that "all the answers" are out there, and that God does in fact possess them all.

Anyways...feel free to instant message me (link224488) or send me a reply and i will show you that God does exist