What do you carry - and why

Sigh - I had hoped to keep the responses on topic as this is the "weapons" forum - thanks to those of you that did (Orangetom can always be relied on ).

Since the discussion opened up somewhat with only a few admitting they pack, I'm happy to respond in kind.

The responses of our English and Australian brethren are similar, there should be no surprise there since the Aussies are being relieved of the burden of deciding if they should own handguns or not, just as with the now essentially defenceless Brits. Geez I wonder what will happen to Aussie crime, judging by the skinhead riots of late I think I can see your future.

As for the Brits becoming increasingly terrorized by the Chavs (Council House And Violent for the uninitiated), the mindset just isn't there to wonder if being armed might stop someone from attacking you, it usually slides off into Socialist Group Hug Land by thinking "my god, Chavs with guns - it would be even worse". Word to the wise - try shooting a few of them (where justified of course) and see if their collective behavior improves or worsens - don't think you're the first part of the World to ponder this question, it seems so alien to you though, I'm sure. For those Brits who would like the option of armed self defence, you have my continued support and understanding, keep thinking your own thoughts and don't be brainwashed by the media.

For anyone who is serious about understanding this subject, I urge you to read this report on concealed carry:

uhaweb.hartford.edu...

As for the individual who thinks it's Teddy Time because people in the US carry a gun for personal protection, you musn't read the papers or watch the news every day, because this is a nasty violent world we live in and it's kept safe, at least where I live, largely because private citizens carry guns. The streets in my neighborhood are safe, we have no violent attacks, no assaults, no rapes - young women jog alone on remote trails and are safe doing so. Judging by what people post about conditions in the UK, I'll stick with Teddy Time, thanks.

[edit on 17-12-2005 by Winchester Ranger T]

To all those people who advocate using their hands or a baton for self defence, ask yourself one question - is this any good inside a car?

The ability to do 200 high kicks per minute followed by a triple back somersalt ending with a swan dive is fairly irrelivant if you're sitting behind the wheel of a Ford Fiesta. Ditto for the 'walk tall & carry a big stick' brigade.

I carry an 8 shot 9mm pistol as that is what I am issued (current issue pistol is the Walther P5C). It's not flash or fancy, but it will kill you if you get in the way of it. The blokes I know who have purchased their PPWs tend to go for a 9mm semi as well, usually Glock 19s or SIG P229s. A couple carry Rugers, and one carrys a Smith Sigma. They are all 9mm high capacity shooters.

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
The responses of our English and Australian brethren are similar, there should be no surprise there since the Aussies are being relieved of the burden of deciding if they should own handguns or not, just as with the now essentially defenceless Brits. Geez I wonder what will happen to Aussie crime, judging by the skinhead riots of late I think I can see your future.

Seeing as you brought it up. IF we had guns like in the US, there would have been more than a few people shot at the riots It is far easier ti harm someone with a gun than with your fists.
Australia is far far less violent than the US, a gun death here is a very rare event indeed.
As much as I'd like to have a gun and be able to go shooting, I feel much safer here in Australia where we don't have to rely on guns for our protection. I fear the day, when every second person is packing heat.



[edit on 18-12-2005 by mad scientist]

I pack a pocket knife... since the law in here forbids carrying loaded weapons with no reason (generally self defence isn't an allowed reason in everyday life) and carry-loaded-permits are next to impossible to get unless you are a cop, border guard, or security guard in highrisk target etc.

Incase i know things may go bad when i go out (some of my friends live in pretty nasty neighbourhoods) i could allways take my CZ-75b 9mm semiauto 16 round magaszines (i have the licence for IPSC Production class)

Incase the law and order breakdown some ppl seem to fear, i have no worries since before i have a change to start thinking my phone will ring calling me to service (since i'm one of the few RDF reserve troops in the city) and i'll get my belowed Rk-95 rifle

Paddy, I don't advocate carrying the baton. My country simply has a CCW standard that is nigh-impossible to get, even for cops. A baton is better than nothing... especially when you don't own a gun. Also, it's the difference between a slap on the wrist and mandatory jail time.

DE

I have a CCW and yet I rarely carry it with me.

Part of that is because the Springfield GI .45 is a little bulky to carry around with me.

When I do carry I load Corbon Powerball. It's a great high velocity round and it actually carries less recoil than the FMJ's I shoot at the range.

Mostly I have it because while I may never need it, the one time I do I'll have it. And c'mon who doesn't enjoy shooting off a couple hundred rounds at paper targets?

Ive been reflecting on some of the posts here concerning concealed carry or even just carrying in the open.

One type of conduct on which I heavily frown is drinking and driving and drinking and carrying a weapon..open or concealed. I bring this up in retrospect because of it suddenly dawned on me the customs and traditions of my kinsmen in the UK and Down Under..this is probably more prevelant than here in the states and it is very prevelant here...the local watering hole I mean.
In my opinion alcohol and automobiles are very ..very poor mix and alcohol and firearms even poorer. At our gun club ..on private property..they do not frown on your drinking there. They frown very highly on your drinking and picking up a firearm..they will pull your membership on the spot if they catch you ..and rightly so.
While the advent of so many Concealed carry permits has not resulted in the wild west shooting tragedy for which so many politicians and liberal thinkers here have predicted, I would be very concerned about people drinking and carrying if this was a huge tradition among the populace. It is against the law here to carry concealed in a place which serves alcoholic beverages. You can carry open but not concealed. I have not heard much about anyone being caught carrying concealed in such a establishment. I think this is a good provision in this concealed carry law.
It is not my custom to frequent the local watering holes. What little consumption in which I indulge is done at home. Nevertheless alcolol and firearms are a poor mix. I am sometimes given to reflecting ..that in the olde days at least your mule or horse could find their way home with you in such a condition and without your guidance as long as you were able to hang on to the animal. Not so with your high tech automobile.

Oh and a side story about this drinking and carrying weapons in a watering hole type establishment. This one occured right here in this town a number of years back.
A verbal altercation between four patrons of a wateringhole/sports bar took place one evening and continued out into the parking lot. The argument got heated when one of the guys went in his pick up truck pulled out his pistol and laid it on the hood of his truck. The other two guys pulled thier guns and their badges and announced that they were from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. The ATF. As I reacall the newspaper accounts the two guys at the truck backed off when they realized these guys were federal agents and they were shot. It took awhile for this to work its way through the courts but the agents got the short end of the deal as I recall..particularly for their poor judgement in mixing alcohol and firearms.
Nonetheless no matter who it is ..alcohol and firearms are a very very poor mix. Same with automobiles.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Winchester,

I have no real idea about what guncrime down south in the heart land of my "southern" friends, but up here guncrime is non existant.
Glasgow mabye but thats a massive city.

The most I have heard of is someone holding up the local bank with what people descibed as a "possible" shotgun, so please lay off the "beseiged homstead" bs.

As for defenceless, you have no idea what defences we have here, you dont live there anymore remember?

I have in my reach right now several weapons that are quite lethal, btw, anything is a weapon in the hands of a master.


Also, IF guns are so effective at combatting crime, explain the guncrime rate in the US?

Originally posted by LeftBehind
I have a CCW and yet I rarely carry it with me.

Part of that is because the Springfield GI .45 is a little bulky to carry around with me.

When I do carry I load Corbon Powerball. It's a great high velocity round and it actually carries less recoil than the FMJ's I shoot at the range.

Mostly I have it because while I may never need it, the one time I do I'll have it. And c'mon who doesn't enjoy shooting off a couple hundred rounds at paper targets?

This is a sound line of thinking and one I follow myself. Although I would say that you should always carry your CHL in your wallet just in case you ever find yourself returning from a pleasant afternoon at the range with your range bag and ammo in the car with you (as opposed to separated in the glovebox and trunk as most states mandate) - the simple production of a CHL makes the potential problem go away should you be stopped for speeding etc.

I agree about the Springfield, they make a great 1911 but even the compacts need some planning to conceal properly - like I said before I am terrible for just "grab and go" and the P-3AT and Smith 642 are ideal for that role.

Originally posted by mad scientist IF we had guns like in the US, there would have been more than a few people shot at the riots

Australia is either in the process of banning handguns or already has, I'm not sure. But you still have tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of legally owned rifles and shotguns. I don't recall any of these being used during the riots either - perhaps your countrymen aren't quite the homicidal maniacs you make them out to be.

It is far easier ti (sic) harm someone with a gun than with your fists.

Yes but it is still quite possible to be killed by fists (and then boots), it happens every single day somewhere in the western world. If I had 3 fist swinging Skinheads coming at me wearing Doc Martens with which to deliver the Coup De Grace once I was conveniently down on the ground, you can be sure I would be hoping that your original statement would hold true for me.

Australia is far far less violent than the US, a gun death here is a very rare event indeed.

In spite of your society still having so many guns it seems. As for Australia being quote "far far less violent than the US" recent events would appear to show that it is every bit as nasty and violent as the worst parts of the US.

As much as I'd like to have a gun and be able to go shooting, I feel much safer here in Australia where we don't have to rely on guns for our protection

Where does the "we" come from. It's very big of you to decide that you would rather not have a gun even though it may be fun to have one, but to dictate to others that they cannot have one either is elitist. I much prefer to have the right to choose for myself. What if the law insisted that that you HAVE to own firearms, I doubt you would like that too much.

I fear the day, when every second person is packing heat.

Here we go with the usual flawed assumptions and proof positive that you didn't read the data I provided in the report link by the way. In the gun insane, shoot 'em up, drop 'em on the spot USA, precisely 4% of eligible adults carry a firearm, FOUR PERCENT. There is always this failed logic that the whole population would be lining up to get a permit. Concealed weapon permit holders have also been shown to have the lowest incidence of crime in their peer grouping. Every time this issue comes up, the same tired old assumptions about society turning into the Wild West keep coming up, and the facts simply do not support these conclusions. Read the report and learn something - we're talking about lawful concealed carry here, the people going around shooting up the inner cities tend not to bother with such niceties as going through training and obtaining a permit.

I have been to the local gun range...not my local gun club.

At the local gun range here there are alot of wanabees..some at my local gun club too. I put distance very quickly between me and them. You know..people who shoot alot and make alot of noise but cant hit much or even get a decent group on paper.
Proper shooting skills take dedication and dicipline. Most peoples dont take that much time and dicipline at it. Most people who have Concealed carry permits have taken courses or have diciplines learned in military service and can demonstrate so with their discharge papers or DD form 214.
Crime statistics of breaking laws are noticably low among concealed permit owners. They are not out looking to get into wild west shoot outs as predicted by anti gunners..in runaway hysteria. I carried my Colt Government .45 with me twice this weekend...I actually didnt shoot anyone..can you imagine that?? I actually didnt shoot anyone.!!! Astonishing!!!

I can assure you that people who openly and constantly break the laws particularly in gun ownership or usage..are not worried about legal or lawful formalitys or training diciplines per se. By the newspaper reports they just shoot indiscriminately and openly as evidenced by the shell casings and evidence number cards on the roads. And worst thing is that very often it is a bystander that gets shot or killed.
The one case I know of around here where a CCW owner shot someone was in a ABC store across the river. The robber attempted to intimidate and threaten the safety of the customers and help with a firearm and a shoot out proceeded. The robber was shot and killed. A lengthy investigation proceeded to take place and in the end the CCW owner was released and no charges filed. What solidified it for the CCW owner was when it was concluded that the robber threatened the safety of the customers and store operators with his firearm.

Once again..firearms ownership is a Right here in the USA not a privelege of a Soverign to his subjects. CCW owners have been shown to be statistically more responsible than most owners of firearms. The wild west shootouts involving CCW owners proclaimed by the anti gunners have not taken place. This is a piece of information never quoted by anti gun peoples and astonishing by its noted abscence.

One more thing. I dont feel intimidated by people carrying guns ..open or concealed. It doesnt bother me either way. I am more alarmed by the number of drunken peoples behind the wheel on Friday or Saturday nights..which is why I mostly prefer to stay home on these nights if I am not working overtime on the weekends. This is much more dangerous to me than someone with a firearm ..especially someone with a CCW.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T

Originally posted by mad scientist IF we had guns like in the US, there would have been more than a few people shot at the riots

Australia is either in the process of banning handguns or already has, I'm not sure. But you still have tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of legally owned rifles and shotguns. I don't recall any of these being used during the riots either - perhaps your countrymen aren't quite the homicidal maniacs you make them out to be.

Handguns have never really been available to the public here, there just isn't really any need. As for rifles and shotguns, the licenses are very strict, it is mostly only farmers who are allowed them and no semi-auto rifles are allowed either.

It is far easier ti (sic) harm someone with a gun than with your fists.

Yes but it is still quite possible to be killed by fists (and then boots), it happens every single day somewhere in the western world. If I had 3 fist swinging Skinheads coming at me wearing Doc Martens with which to deliver the Coup De Grace once I was conveniently down on the ground, you can be sure I would be hoping that your original statement would hold true for me.

Like I said, id these skinheads had a gun ( by what you're saying ) they could have quite easily blown you away, instead you survived.

Australia is far far less violent than the US, a gun death here is a very rare event indeed.

In spite of your society still having so many guns it seems. As for Australia being quote "far far less violent than the US" recent events would appear to show that it is every bit as nasty and violent as the worst parts of the US.

LOL, you obviously get a pretty bias version of events over there. Several americans I've spoken to by phone were getting reports on CNN et al, which completely misrepresented the situation. If gunms were readily available here, there probably would hvae been more than a few shootings. But hey, guess what no one packs heat therefore no gun deaths.

As much as I'd like to have a gun and be able to go shooting, I feel much safer here in Australia where we don't have to rely on guns for our protection

Where does the "we" come from. It's very big of you to decide that you would rather not have a gun even though it may be fun to have one, but to dictate to others that they cannot have one either is elitist. I much prefer to have the right to choose for myself. What if the law insisted that that you HAVE to own firearms, I doubt you would like that too much.

'we' comes from almost all Asutralians thinking the same way Your argument is moot, we don't have such a law and never will. Howmany gun deaths do you have in the US per year ? we have a bout 5 at the most here.

I fear the day, when every second person is packing heat.

Here we go with the usual flawed assumptions and proof positive that you didn't read the data I provided in the report link by the way. In the gun insane, shoot 'em up, drop 'em on the spot USA, precisely 4% of eligible adults carry a firearm, FOUR PERCENT.

LOL, is this the leagl 4% or does this include all the criminals, militia groups and religious cults.

Read the report and learn something - we're talking about lawful concealed carry here, the people going around shooting up the inner cities tend not to bother with such niceties as going through training and obtaining a permit.

Makes no difference if they're legal or illegal, they still carry a gun. What about all the gun massacres you have over there. how many kids go on ramapges blowing away their schoolmates Far, far more than any other country.
We had a few gun massacres here in the 80's, then semi-auto rifles were banned. Hey, guess what, no more gun massacres.
You don't know what it is like to live in a country almost free of gun violence, your views are warped by your country. Australia isn't America and never will be.

I could go further and say, that carryng a concealed weapon is probaly from a lack of self confidence.

You people are crazy lol

Originally posted by mad scientist
Handguns have never really been available to the public here, there just isn't really any need.

So Australia has zero violent crime I assume.

As for rifles and shotguns, the licenses are very strict, it is mostly only farmers who are allowed them and no semi-auto rifles are allowed either.

You must have an awful lot of farmers then. Link to levels of Australian firearms ownership as last reported in 1997 (9% or roughly one in ten of the adult population).

www.ag.gov.au...

Like I said, id these skinheads had a gun ( by what you're saying ) they could have quite easily blown you away, instead you survived.

I know I'm abusing a dead equine here - but - criminals will always have guns, they care nothing for the law. So your skinheads would and probably do, have guns anyway, only the law abiding are disarmed by gun laws.

LOL, you obviously get a pretty bias version of events over there. Several americans I've spoken to by phone were getting reports on CNN et al, which completely misrepresented the situation. If gunms were readily available here, there probably would hvae been more than a few shootings. But hey, guess what no one packs heat therefore no gun deaths.

"Several Americans I've spoken to by phone" I love that one. The fact that your rioting didn't result in any deaths may be a stroke of good luck for the Muslims who were shown being beaten by skinheads for no apparent reason other than their race, but personally I like to have the odds a little more on my side than trusting they only beat me to within an inch of my life, and not an inch past it. And this may come as a terrible shock to you, but plenty of people in Australia "pack heat" we call them "criminals".

'we' comes from almost all Asutralians thinking the same way

Your argument is moot, we don't have such a law and never will. Howmany gun deaths do you have in the US per year ? we have a bout 5 at the most here.

Like I've already said, approximately one in ten Australians owns a firearm, so if you do have such remarkably low levels of firearms related deaths, that should be proof positive to you of one thing - namely that more guns does not necessarily equal more shootings.

Ownership link:

www.ag.gov.au...

LOL, is this the leagl 4% or does this include all the criminals, militia groups and religious cults.

The 4% was obviously legal ownership, and it's obvious that you really hadn't expected that had you.

Makes no difference if they're legal or illegal, they still carry a gun.

It makes a big difference if you're an unarmed legal victim facing an illegal armed felon.

What about all the gun massacres you have over there. how many kids go on ramapges blowing away their schoolmates

Far, far more than any other country.

So your logic here is that I should lose my privilege to own firearms because someone else abused theirs. By that line of thinking you should all have your cars taken away from you because some guy in Brisbane got drunk and ran over a pedestrian.

You don't know what it is like to live in a country almost free of gun violence, your views are warped by your country. Australia isn't America and never will be.

Oh I would say that having lived 90% of my life in the UK qualifies me as having lived in a country "almost free of gun crime". What that experience taught me was that following the 1997 gun ban in the UK, gun crime actually increased, and has steadily continued to do so. Now I live in a country that allows firearms ownership, what I see are higher standards of behaviour, less routine street violence, and greater personal empowerment to protect yourself and your family from violent criminals. I do however agree that Australia will never be America, but it could one day be the UK if it tries really hard.

I could go further and say, that carryng a concealed weapon is probaly from a lack of self confidence.

You could say that, since it would be a completely unsubstantiated opinion as with the rest of your responses. I could also point out that 95 pound females or retirees don't carry handguns because they have an acute lack of self confidence, I rather think it's more like common sense.

LOL, well if you want to talk about statistics.

(Washington, DC) Although the exact number of Americans killed by gun violence in the 20th century will never be known, it is now all but certain that it will, by any measure, vastly exceed the number of Americans shot and killed on battlefields since 1900. In fact, more Americans were killed with guns in the 18-year period between 1979 and 1997 (651,697), than were killed in battle in all wars since 1775 (650,858). And while a sharp drop in gun homicides has contributed to a decline in overall gun deaths since 1993, the 90's will likely exceed the death toll of the 1980s (327,173) and end up being the deadliest decade of the century. By the end of the 1990s, an estimated 350,000 Americans will have been killed in non-military-related firearm incidents during the decade.

www.bradycampaign.org...

Well that says it all, no more needed to be said The stats speak for themselves, impossible to spin


BTW

www.ag.gov.au...

You are aware that the information in that link is based on the polling of 2400 people. Therefore it isn't what you'd call concrete

[edit on 20-12-2005 by mad scientist]

I've fired a 22, winchester bolt action LR, and a Remington 12 gauge and a Mossberg 500 shotgun too, but if i were to carry heat, my choices are simple,

1. side arm- M9 Berreta,
2. bayonet.
3. AR-10 Carbine, gas powered semi-automatic rifle.
4. Mk 74, White Phosporous Grenades (obsolete now because explosive radius is larger than the average soldier's throw)
5. ATN-799 Image Intensifier Goggles (NVG's)
6 Possibly a PDA-Black Snooper UAV cooperation unit.

And btw You can't be right, only 5 deaths by guns in year is aus? bah!
in west aus, one of the most remote states in the world with an average of 450 kms between towns, we've had 3 kills, not just firings, but KILLS, all head shots, very professional (organised crime probably) in our suburb alone. in the past 3 months too.

As suspected, this has turned into a debate about the rights and wrongs of carrying firearms.

READ THE THREAD TITLE. It is WHAT do you carry, not WHY do you carry. This is not what this thread is about. This subject has been debated to death on other threads. Can the Mods please get a grip here?

Get back on track.

[edit on 23-12-2005 by PaddyInf]