WAR: Bush Allowed NSA to Spy on U.S. International Calls

Clarification:

To all you folks arguing about the difference between "classified" and "covert".

The fact that this individual was employed by the CIA was classified. More specifically, the fact that any given individual is employed by the CIA and is assigned to the Directorate of Operations (DO) is usually classified, at a minumum, Confidential, depending on the nature of the position. Sometimes, due to the nature of the job and the visibility of the individual, that fact can be classified much higher.

It is true that Ms. Plame was not acting as a "covert" agent, i.e. she was not assigned overseas in an undercover position. Anybody who knows anything about CIA operations nows that there are very few Amercians who do that at all. Thats why we recruit "agents" to work for us.

However, her job was unacknowledged, and for good reason. As the wife of a State Department senior official, she (previously) has the opportunity to come into regular contact with foreign diplomats, and travel to foreign countries under the legitimate guise of acting as the good and faithful wife of the Embassador. This is an excellent cover for gathering open source intelligence and personal facts regarding other nations and their officals. This capability is now lost because of her "outing".

Just because she wasn't running around with Guerillas in the hills of some foreign country doesn't lessen the importance of her mission, nor does it not make her any less of an undercover operative. There are many roles to fill in the DO, some glamorous, some mundane, but the common thread is that the individuals true status must remain a secret in order for them to remain effective.

Whoever leaked the fact that Ms. Plame was employed as an undercover operative for the DO lessened our ability to gather intelligence, and therefore damaged our national security. And there you go.

"quotes" posted by Ox. REPLIES: are mine.

"....The American military CANNOT police American but its ok to have spy agencies governed to spy outside of the continental U.S to spy on what other than... the Continental U.S."

REPLY: You obviously haven't done the research on the laws, which have been mentioned in this thread and others.

".... This is against everything America was built on.... there is no more "land of the free, home of the brave" its now "land of facist dictator, home of the biggest corrupt government the world has ever seen, oh and we're coming for your oil".. this is corruption in its most pure form."

REPLY: You obviously have no clue as to the definition of Fascism. And the old war-for-oil thing? This, too, has been covered.

'nuff said. Ignore!

Majic.. no offense taken.. and yes these are my opinions on what I've seen in the past 6 years from the lunatic frat boy this country has to call President.. Presidents are supposed to be great men.. Not fools convicted of DUI's and coc aine possesion.. and certainly not people who go AWOL when their daddy can fix it for them.. Presidents are supposed to care about their people and speak as a voice FOR their people not dictate what their people should do, or send them to their deaths in a futile war that he wouldn't serve in himself.... as for the wiretapping.. I believe it was wrong.. he should have gone through the courts but this man carries the mentality that he IS the law and can do what he feels.. The last 6 years supports that statement

Originally posted by Pyros
The fact that this individual was employed by the CIA was classified. More specifically, the fact that any given individual is employed by the CIA and is assigned to the Directorate of Operations (DO) is usually classified, at a minumum, Confidential, depending on the nature of the position. Sometimes, due to the nature of the job and the visibility of the individual, that fact can be classified much higher.

However, her job was unacknowledged, and for good reason. As the wife of a State Department senior official, she (previously) has the opportunity to come into regular contact with foreign diplomats, and travel to foreign countries under the legitimate guise of acting as the good and faithful wife of the Embassador. This is an excellent cover for gathering open source intelligence and personal facts regarding other nations and their officals. This capability is now lost because of her "outing".

Very good point. But, it should have been written into the statute in that case.

Originally posted by marg6043
I am very sorry Grady to disagree with you, I know that you are a patriot and a good citizen but. . .

The day that our information and the awareness given to the people of this nation is gag and bind that will be the day that our democracy will die.

So be happy American citizens that we still have our freedom of press even if our civil rights are in jeopardy.

REPLY: Civil rights have nothing to do with it, and most of what call "civil rights": have no basis in the Bill of Rights. I'm still waiting for the link to the law that says we have the right to know everything the government does......

Breaking Story: NSA Tracked "Threat" of Local Peace Group

WASHINGTON - January 13 - The Baltimore Sun reports today: "The National Security Agency used law enforcement agencies, including the Baltimore Police Department, to track members of a city anti-war group as they prepared for protests outside the sprawling Fort Meade facility, internal NSA documents show.

www.commondreams.org...

okkkkkkk......

wow they ae really really dangerous!! lol

Breaking Story: NSA Tracked "Threat" of Local Peace Group

WASHINGTON - January 13 - ... "Surveillance of peaceful, constitutionally protected activities has a chilling effect, as it is designed to do. There were a couple of people in our group who were here on Green Cards who were concerned that they could be deported. They expressed fear and no longer participate with us, although they wanted to continue."

www.commondreams.org...

Seems that perhaps Nixon's protegé is still amongst us.

Have to say that I still am unimpressed and do fear the unimpeached or unchecked power of a government gone totally paranoid.

Fortunately, there are still some checks in place that Bushie and the boys haven't been able to totally sidestep or quash. Not everyone is of the opinion that the American Peoples are out to drop America in the toilet.

What's interesting to me is that there is a far better than average chance that there are cruisers for Bushie out there reading these types of sites, and because I and others have stood up and said that their method of governance is a little below and slightly to the right of reproach, and largely paranoid and self serving, we probably have agency assets (you supply the agency name) looking into major personal aspects of our lives and our privacy.

Generally, I liked Richard M. Nixon. Just the tiniest bit paranoid, but a pretty good statesman. This President, the rest of the boys in the bands and their collective actions would have done Ol' Tricky Dick's paranoia proud to fine "how do you do".

edited a colorful phrase and attempted to fix off-kilter, new-fangled quotes



[edit on 25-1-2006 by sigung86]

sigung86:

So.... we have more leaks from NSA files? Time to go after the leakers again. By the way, "common dreams" is a "progressive" group, and the not-so modern definition of a progressive is Marxist/Socialist and Communist.... hardly an "American" website. The origins of the progressive party dates back to the 40's, and is as anti-American as you can get. Liberals have the same viewpoints on many issues, and are heavily backed by those with communist goals and ideals, like the workers world party; Molly Ivans, and many more.

If this is your idea of a valid source of information, then you were well indoctrinated by someone; Where did you go to college, if you did?

TWIST TWIST There it goes!!!! spin spin spin. From common to Progrssive to full fledge communist. So what if I was communist is that againt the law? Am I banned for participating in government. THe problem is where is the line between intrusion and safeguarding the country. Tracking registered peace groups is a little over the edge. It is not like there Pro life bombing radicals. The key word is "PEACE" group. MSM did a similar article about the same subject in fact they broke the story are they communist now?

Anyone or any group can think up a name with the word peace in it, or for that matter advertise themselves as a peace group, but that doesn't make the claim(s) true. Actions do speak louder than words. If a group says it is a peaceful group, but advocates or employs violent protests, or stages protests at locations critical to certain operations and thereby causes some, most, or all of the operations to be halted then that group may not be a peace group, in fact, it may be a radical law breaking group. The only way to know is to either get someone into the group to monitor it or conduct surveillance of the group from outside until a reasonably accurate determination can be made. Having said that, I will add that such action is not called for all the time, or even most of the time. Typically, such tactics are used only when someone has tipped off or informed on a group because they suspect them.

If you think doing such things is un-American or violates the civil rights of the members of the group then so-be-it.

[edit on 25-1-2006 by Astronomer68]

one of the groups is a quaker group . they have been non violent since george washington...

Originally posted by Ox
.... as for the wiretapping.. I believe it was wrong..

I question your character.

Benjamin Franklin is rolling in his grave right now, "Those who would give up their freedom for security deserve neither"?

You are attempting to fit an oversized square into a circle my friend. shame on you!

So I say to my peers who object to wire taps, Would you give up your life for mindless Murderers who WILL RAPE your MOTHERS and BEHEAD your FATHERS on public television?!

Is this how you repay them?

THE GUILTY hate THEMSELVES the most!

[edit on 28-1-2006 by Kool Aide Sipper]

"So I say to my peers who object to wire taps, Would you give up your life for mindless Murderers who WILL RAPE your MOTHERS and BEHEAD your FATHERS on public television?! "

answer:

would you give up those values, and freedoms, that you hold dear to your heart, values that your ancesters have fought, and died for, since the revolutionary war, simply because of a fear that might be within your heart of a small goup of people and what they could do to you?

If is was just one small infraction against our constitutional rights, well, it could be easily overlooked. but it has been infraction upon infraction, and a plentiful amount of rumors of infractions, the steady degreading of our constitution and the rights and values that identify us as americans. from cheney's aruguing for their right to torture the "terrorists", to them pressuring the lobbyist companies to hire only republicans. while they are monitoriing our phone calls, our emails, and our daily internet habits....all in the name of national security.....they are so hesitant to do anything to slow up that steady stream of illegals from entering this nation. while they point to Iran, Iraq, Syria, North Korea, and portray them as evil, the proclaim that the outsourcing of jobs to the ones empowering these countries, giving them the technoloy to strike us.....CHINA....as being good for us.

if we are at war, and threatened so badly that our rights and liberties should be so willingly given up, well, shouldn't they START ACTING LIKE THERE IS A THREAT!!! protect our industry, what is left of it, start rebuilding the remains of what is lost. start ensuring that every person who enters this country is carefullly scrutinized, and refused entry if reason is found, and start shipping out those who are here, on visas, or illegally, or whatever, that there's doubts about. these things should have been done way before any rights or liberties of the american people were laid aside in the name of "national security".

Dawnstar, under most circumstances I would agree with you, however not here. From the sound of it you are not concerned about your parents, siblings, or children.

Maybe you are affraid of wire taps because perhaps you are doing something illegal. My suggestion would be to stop this activity and get counseling.

and yes you are right we need to screen new citizens carefully.

Kool Aide Sipper

nothing illegal here.....

my parents are dead, and my kids will get to inherit a massive iou from my generation. My dad fought in WW2, and then him and his companions came home and pulled together and built the country that is here today! they were the ones that brought this country to the point of world leader. they built our highway system, our airline system, put a tv in every home, created the computer that is in so many homes now. they also had hearts that reached around the world to help so many. they the ones that created the geneva convention and willingly accepted it. they're the ones that so many neocons are now so grateful for their hard work and generosity that they dispise allowing them to have their social security checks!!!

I have a pretty good idea what he would say about today's events....some of which, I have on paper in his own words., maybe I'll find it and share some of it with you.

From the Revolutionary war, to the present, there has always been family members serving in the military, fighting for the country that they had a hand in creating, for FREEDOM!!!

and while our president is standing on a podium, promoting his agenda to "bring freedom" to the four corners of the earth......ummm.....they are hauling out one of the senator's wife because she is wearing a shirt that expresses her support for these men and women who are willing to give up thier lives to preserve this freedom.....so much for freedom, huh???

like I said, if it was just one small infraction, maybe it could be overlooked, but it isn't.
and, I have a basic philosophy built into my life, mainly from years of experience....basically it says, DON'T LET FEAR RULE YOU....you might find yourself running off a clift to avoid a tiny spider that you could easily just stomp on!!!

Hey, I got a question for all the people on this thread who defended these spying tactics and work-arounds to the system by saying NO U.S. CITIZENS WERE SPIED ON...

what's going to be your argument now?

FBI secretly sought data on 3,501 people in ’05

The FBI secretly sought information last year on 3,501 U.S. citizens and legal residents from their banks and credit card, telephone and Internet companies without a court's approval, the Justice Department said Friday.

I mean seriously folks. How long are you going to defend these unconstitutional and illegal actions by our government and its agencies?

Legal Matter

Originally posted by Valhall
I mean seriously folks. How long are you going to defend these unconstitutional and illegal actions by our government and its agencies?

I would personally prefer to see more court oversight of quite a few aspects of federal government surveillance.

However, I am unable to find anything in the article you cited which is either unconstitutional or illegal.

What am I missing?

Your reading cell???

It's called illegal search and seizure, majic.

Legal Theory For The Rest Of Us

Originally posted by Valhall
It's called illegal search and seizure, majic.

Again, I'm not seeing it.

Controversial? Yes. Unconstitutional or illegal? I don't see anything in the article which suggests that. Those words don't appear anywhere in the article.

It says this:

FBI secretly sought data on 3,501 people in ’05

It was the first time the Bush administration has publicly disclosed how often it uses the administrative subpoena known as a national security letter, which allows the executive branch of government to obtain records about people in terrorism and espionage investigations without court approval.

To the best of my knowledge, these "national security letters" are legal.

Since I'm clearly having trouble finding one, can you give me a specific example of a federal activity from the article that is actually unconstitutional or illegal?

I was talking on my phone about 3 months ago ... and a Police Car ... Came rolling through my neighborhood in League City, Texas. I have a Kyocera Yellow Block phone it is old school. But anyways , just thought I would give ya some info on my phone. It has other options for Walkie Talkie options on it that I do not have activated. But that may explain this and why it happend but if anyone else has any idea of why or how this happend by all means I am interested.

Anyways, you already know I was talking on my cell and a car that APPEARED to be a Police Car rolls by and all the sudden I could hear my conversation over the speaker on the outside of the car. Was the wierdest thing EVER .... My g/f was next to me and just looked at me like ... "What is going on ???" ... anyways .. anyone has any information of how this could have happend I am intrigued ...