Holocaust Revisionist Theory

My thoughts on revising the Holocaust story? All I have to say, is that if you start tinkering & re-writing a story like that, you're trying to forget that it happened, to lessen the crimes of those who commited them, & to eventually resivit the atrocities on other people.

This is the eventual goal of the US Government, after they've taken away our guns, & locked people up in "terrorist camps", then they will start marching people into the "showers" & ovens, like Hitler did to the Jews & the other millions he slaughtered.

This is their way of dealing with overpopulation. War had always been the way to kill off many people all at once, by inspiring them to leave their homes by blind Patriotism & march off to "Do their duty to their country".

The Truth Is A Harsh Mistress

I realize my previous post was rather harsh, and want to emphasize that my objection is to a rather patently absurd claim.

However, it may have come across as an ad hominem attack against Conspiracy Theorist. That was not my intent, but it can at times be difficult to isolate a post from a poster in cases such as these. To the extent I failed to do so, I'm sorry.

I wish to reiterate that I encourage skepticism, questioning and debate on any topic, including historical topics, and including the Holocaust.

Regarding the Holocaust, I am very much aware that there is a great deal of fiction surrounding the event, and that, to the best of my knowledge, all parties involved are wrong to some extent.

Thus I don't wish to come across as “pro-Holocaust” or “anti-Holocaust” (oh the irony ), because I am neither.

I am pro-truth, and having such a commitment means necessarily understanding that everyone is wrong to some degree or another about everything.

But we have to start somewhere, and the best place to start is with honesty, integrity and an open mind.

An important aspect of this involves considering sources of information and their credibility, so they can be intelligently evaluated for merit.

Here's some additional information on the organization which provided the source article for this thread.

The Institute for Historical Review

The source article provided by Conspiracy Theorist for this thread is: Debating the Undebatable: The Weber-Shermer Clash.

I encourage members to read it with an open mind if they choose. It's an interesting article.

Then I encourage members to explore the site it's posted on: Institute for Historical Review.

Note the breadth of this site's interest in history. A review of its articles reveals a rather telling pattern. Specifically, the IHR apparently exists to “review” only one particular kind of history, and only from one perspective.

To find out more about IHR, a page is thoughtfully provided by them: A Few Facts About the Institute for Historical Review.

Astute readers will find additional hints regarding IHR's agenda on this page -- notably its status as a subsidiary of the “Legion for the Survival of Freedom”.

Believing What They Tell You

Ultimately what emerges from investigation of this group -- its charter, its history, its message and its methods -- is a very clear picture.

It is in the context of this knowledge that I recommend evaluating their claims and credibility.

I have done so, and suggest that members who wish to gain an honest understanding of the subjects the IHR specializes in avoid putting faith in their opinions alone.

The IHR is one source of information on the Holocaust, and it has a clear agenda. There are others, each with their own agendas, some clearer than others.

To deny ignorance requires examining many different sources and considering them honestly before reaching any conclusions on a subject such as this one.

And, having done so, accepting the possibility of being wrong.

The reward for doing this is greater understanding, which is well worth the effort.

A Little More Background On IHR

Silly me, I left out a very handy FAQ on IHR which USENET fans might recognize from alt.conspiracy:

HOLOCAUST FAQ: Willis Carto & The Institute for Historical Review (1/2)

This FAQ is quite informative, well-sourced and provides a great deal of information on how to find out more about IHR and its related groups.

Quite an eye-opener, I daresay.

Caveat Lector.

ok... ur right.. i shouldnt have made that claim. and hereby retract it publicly.

The jewish people were not the only people to gain from WWII.

But i stand by the fact that by promoting their version of the holocaust, a version that has very little physical evidence besides eyewitness accounts, they are basically laying a guilt trip on the rest of the world... a version of, U owe us because of what someone else did to our people 60 years ago.

Whenever anyone questions the alleged 'Facts' about the holocaust, they are immediately called anti semitic.

Beware Of Wars Bearing Gifts

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
ok... ur right.. i shouldnt have made that claim. and hereby retract it publicly.

The jewish people were not the only people to gain from WWII.

I think I understand where you're coming from on this, and don't wish to discourage you from pursuing that line of inquiry. Rather, I advise caution with respect to jumping to unfounded conclusions.

I think you got my point, which I assure you is cause for great relief on my part.

As for “the Jews got Israel”, certainly the Holocaust played a role in the founding of Israel. However, to say they “got” Israel as a result of WWII ignores the very real fact that they had to fight for it literally from Day One, and have had to fight for it ever since.

Some “gift”. That's sort of like saying Britain “gave” the colonies to the American Revolutionaries.

I recommend further study of the history of Israel as an aid in clearing up the confusion.

Guilt By Dissociation

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
But i stand by the fact that by promoting their version of the holocaust, a version that has very little physical evidence besides eyewitness accounts, they are basically laying a guilt trip on the rest of the world... a version of, U owe us because of what someone else did to our people 60 years ago.

I feel no guilt for the Holocaust, and see no reason why anyone who did not participate in it should.

So I'm not clear that “they are basically laying a guilt trip on the rest of the world”.

However, there is no doubt that some groups do indeed use the Holocaust as a tool for political leverage.

I caution that they are not confined to “Jewish groups”. There are many groups which are decidedly anti-Jewish who use the Holocaust as a political tool.

Evidence abounds even in this very thread.

I urge skepticism in all things, including this.

Questions And Answers

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
Whenever anyone questions the alleged 'Facts' about the holocaust, they are immediately called anti semitic.

I don't at all consider it “anti-Semitic” to question the facts of the Holocaust or question the circumstances of the founding of Israel.

Those are simply questions. Anti-Semitism requires declarations.

There is a difference, and I think it's important to remember that.

But let me reemphasize that crucial point: there is a difference between asking questions and making statements.

The latter -- especially when false -- do indeed provoke strong reactions from those who know better.

It should not be a mystery to anyone why this is so.

I wish you well in your continuing studies.

As for “the Jews got Israel”, certainly the Holocaust played a role in the founding of Israel. However, to say they “got” Israel as a result of WWII ignores the very real fact that they had to fight for it literally from Day One, and have had to fight for it ever since.

my statement was about the founding of Israel. Not what they have to do to defend themselves.

Personally if every neighbour in my street had a hatred for me that was so strong that they were sending there family to blow themselves up on my door step... I'd probably move. An over simplification, but apt none the less.

I don't at all consider it “anti-Semitic” to question the facts of the Holocaust or question the circumstances of the founding of Israel.

U may not but i assure you, nearly 90% percent of people who ask my opinion on this subject, end up labelling me as anti semitic.

Okay, little physical evidence? I'm totally astounded that anyone, in the entire World could say something like that.

So, obviously, you've never watched the History Channel, or any of the WWII films that are actual events, not Hollywood made up. Films that were filmed by American, or other Allies, that were making them PUKE their guts up as they were filming them walking into Auschwitz, or any of the other Concentration Camps.

Little physical evidence? Just because you didn't walk into one of the many Museums, that used to be Concentration Camps, or actually talked to a Jew or any other race that survived them, you say little physical evidence?

I am not a Jew, nor do I have German leanings, but at least I think about what is told & taught in school, & examine it, & read between the lines. I think maybe you should actually go to Europe, & walk some of History & talk to some people, who can't actually continue a conversation, because of the tears welling up in their eyes, because either they survived the Nazi Concentration Camps, or they had family that died there.

I'm biting My tongue, as I type this whole post, otherwise I'd be banned for saying what I really want to say about someone saying little physical evidence in regards to the Holocaust.

I really want to ask, are you German, or a skinhead, or a current member of the Aryan Race, but I won't. I don't think that you're any of those, you're probably just a teen who doesn't know better, & I'll leave it at that.

Thinking happy thoughts & not going to hate, in order to break the cycle.

[edit on 16-12-2005 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Bad Company

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
U may not but i assure you, nearly 90% percent of people who ask my opinion on this subject, end up labelling me as anti semitic.

If so many people agree, it may make sense to consider why.

For starters, and dispensing with beating around the bush, quoting the IHR can lead people to that conclusion, because the IHR was founded by a neo-Nazi (David McCalden, aka Lewis Brandon) and is currently run by one.

The organizer and primary source of the dog-and-pony show presented in the article you cited, Mark Weber, is the “authoritative source” who provides all those wonderful “facts” -- and portrays his opponent's “agreement” with them in the context of a staged debate.

In reality, and transparently enough, the article is nothing more than a statement of Weber's opinions and is no more scholarly than an episode of Davey and Goliath.

Mark Weber has also been exposed as a neo-Nazi who also has ties to “paleo-Nazis” in Germany. He used to be the news editor for the National Vanguard -- the official magazine of the National Alliance.

Mark Weber was identified in 1993 as a neo-Nazi in a “sting” operation conducted by the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which among other things videotaped him discussing his Nazi ties and beliefs -- with the help of a hidden CBS film crew. Details about this operation can be found here.

The Wikipedia articles on the IHR and the National Alliance offer some background on these ties, but there is much more to it.

What all this boils down to is your posting neo-Nazi propaganda on ATS and asking people what they think about it -- then making claims such as “the Jews got Israel” because of WWII.

In light of all this, I hope you can understand why some people might mistake you for an anti-Semite.

After all, we're talking about neo-Nazis here, and they are proudly anti-Semitic.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
The other thing that bothers me ..is in retrospect today..looking back...you see the mass graves dug up in Iraq. I am not sure that mass graves have been found for six million. I am wondering where these graves are located?? The reason I say this is that from 1943 on to the end of the war...resources for exterminating such masses of people were becoming scarce. Especially by 1944. At least this is what I have read in many wartime stories. I would not have thought that the German Empire would have had fuel to spare for buring such masses by fuel powered equipment. If burried by slave labor ....the sites would be known.
I am not saying that sites have not been found..I am asking for the sites of six million.

In terms of sheer logistics and the use of resources that should have gone to the German war effort, yes, the Holocaust makes no sense. But then we are talking about an evil and twisted train of thought (I won't dignify it with the word 'philosophy') that came from the dark mind of Adolf Hitler. The Holocaust was sheer murderous madness. Even in 1944, when the Allies were pushing out of Normandy and the Russians were snapping the spine of the Wehrmacht in Operation Bagration, the gassings went on, as did the mass burning of bodies. As for the mass graves - the Nazis left a lot of them behind. Others were dug up and the bodies were burnt. The site of Treblinka, a site just as terrible as Auschwitz, was leveled by the Nazis.
What you have to understand (and this is hard in this day and age) is that the Nazis regarded those they imprisoned in the concentration and death camps as being less than human. Untermenschen is the term I think. They could do what they liked to them and it wouldn't matter. Which is why they just herded thousands and thousands of people into Bergen-Belsen and failed to organise proper food, water, sanitation or the means to fight an outbreak of typhus. Why bother? Just untermenschen! As a result, what the Allies found there was so terrible that it scarred people's minds. It certainly scarred the mind of my Grandfather, who was a major in the British Army. He was there. He saw things that would probably break my mind.
I can feel my nostrils flaring, so I'll wrap this post up. The IHR are the guys who put on conferences in which people like David Irving speaks. They are scum. Any website of theirs is to be handled with care, because they tend to take the truth and put just enough spin on it to make it seem slightly off. Don't trust them. And don't trust their facts. They're fiction.

yes I agree..less than human. This is the same thought process used by the Japanese in WW2. THeir treatment of prisioners was no better.

Once again I am not questioning the existance of the camps..I am questioning the numbers being all Jews. This is the impression often given in the media and books. I just dont believe it was all Jews or that large a number. I hope you can understand this line of thought. It is not spoken to invoke the ire of others. It is merely my thought process.

THanks,
Orangetom

If I remember correctly, they're never said it was all Jews who were massacred in the Nazi Death Camps. If I recally coerrctly, it was supposed to be 6 Million Jews, & another 5 miliion of other varying races.

I think the grand total, was 11 Million people who were slaughtered, tortured, or otherwise "Dealt With" by the Nazi SS & Hitlers other heinous henchmen.

Hitler's father was a Jew who beat him every day, & Hilter's mother sexually molested him while coddling him & telling him everything would be okay. If this hadn't happened, or if he had got pyschological help, he would've never done what he did, he might have actually been a great leader, not that I care, he was a funny little man, with a funny little mustache, that the World didn't take seriously, until it was almost too late, just so they could pull the World out of it's economic Depression via War, which is always an economy stimulator.

[edit on 16-12-2005 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
So i am a nazi because i wanna make up my own mind on the subject?

Why, are you going to spew nazi rhetoric about it never having happened? Because it did happen.

This is the problem with discussing anything even remotely close to the holocaust. As soon as u mention something ur a called a nazi jew hater and all the rest of it.

I didn't call you that at all. I am saying that these people who are pretending to be historians are liars and frauds and nazis, they are saying that there was no holocaust because they are nazis.

Why cant we focus on the facts.

Actually you're not focusing on the facts here, I didn't say that anyone who researches the holocaust is a nazi. If you are sceptial and unfamiliar with the evidence and not sure about it, by all means, investigate, there's nothing nazi-like about being sceptical.

as i asked in my original post. for peoples opinions on the arguments only. not your opinion of the people making them.

My opinon on the arguements is that they are crap nazi lies, and not arguements at all.

fact is that there is no verifiable numbers before the war so all the numbers u hear (6 million being the favorite) are just a guess anyway.

This is actually a lie, propagated by nazis and revistionists, you need to check and verify your sources.

Who were the only people to get something out of the war... The answer. The jewish people.

Ok. Now I will say it, you are a nazi.

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[edit on 16-12-2005 by Nygdan]

The act of "denying ignorance" (the motto of ATS) includes denying attempts to change broadly accept accounts of history that have been carefully compiled from multiple sources.

In our extensive experience, the only people wishing to alter such an account (the holocaust) are those with an agenda that includes blind hatred of the Jewish culture. While we heartily embrace freedom of expression in an exceptionally wide array of diverse topics here on ATS, hate is not a form of expression nor a topic that is tolerated.

Consider this a polite but firm warning.

Hey, I hope she isn't a nazi... Click. I check the site and it didn't look as a nazi scum site. So it should be ok.

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
You need to ask yourself, Who were the only people to get something out of the war... The answer. The jewish people. it got them Israel. Now acknowledge that and u can see why it is in their interest to keep this myth alive and kicking.

Excuse me, but please clarify your position here, k?
Cause from my perspective, are you indicating that the Jews willingly allowed themselves to endure the Holocaust, all the while knowing that they would be given a Canary Island sized piece of land in return, and to top that, right in the zone of influence of Muslim Arabs [ie: Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini] that sought their destruction in agreement with Hitler and the Final Solution?

I think my best bet is to stay out of this topic and let others take up my slack.





seekerof

[edit on 16-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Well, now I have heard everything. The Jews were the only ones to get anything out of the Holocaust? How about America? Or maybe England? Or what about the rest of the World? The entire world was in the midst of a great Economic Depression, being left in the toliet, after WW I & the roaring 20's, that lead up to the Great Depression in America, which spread to the rest of the World.

The entire World got something out of it, at the great cost of 11 million people being slaughtered. They got to build weapons of mass destruction, like tanks, rifles, howitzers, B-52 Bombers, which built up their respective Countries economies.

Letting people be lead to the slaughterhouse was apparently good for business too. As, you now see how the World pulled itslef up by it's britches.

you give a figure of 6 million jews and 5 million others. You see ..I have never seen the 5 million others mentioned. I dont know where this comes from. My point is preciesly that..mostly the 6 million get mentioned and the others dont.
Where does this five million come from. I am aware that more than 11 million died in the war..just not familiar with but one figure from the camps..the 5 million I have never seen and it is not spoken of much. Only one of these figures you quoted is mentioned that I have ever seen.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

A Million Here, A Million There

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Where does this five million come from.

The "five million" figure is widely attributed to Adolf Eichmann, who reportedly bragged about having personally sent over five million Jews to their deaths in the trains he managed.

The figures vary depending on who you ask, but every credible source puts the number of dead on the order of several million people.

What is often overlooked by certain self-styled Holocaust experts who are really no more than dishonest Nazis in drag is how many people were killed in extermination camps.

It's hard to honestly argue that these camps existed to provide "comfort and shelter" because they only had enough barracks and logistic infrastructure to support the staff who oversaw the operation and dealt with disposing of the bodies and personal effects.

Everyone else transported to these camps was killed within hours of arrival.

Over 90% of the people sent to these camps were Jews.

The reality of their deaths stands in mute opposition to the efforts of liars and charlatans who insist on claiming that they never existed.

A special hell exists for those who seek to erase the memories of the victims of the Holocaust. Those who take on this evil crusade seem to welcome their unpleasant fates by pursuing their malignant and pernicious agendas.

The truth can save them, but only if they embrace it.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Hitler's father was a Jew who beat him every day, & Hilter's mother sexually molested him while coddling him & telling him everything would be okay. [edit on 16-12-2005 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Hitler's father was not Jewish, this is a fact that is very well attested. His name was Alois Hitler (or Alois Schicklgruber until he changed his name) and he born in the village of Strones. A bad-tempered man, he was not above using his fists to discipline his children, but he did not beat them every day. As for his mother, there is no evidence of sexual molestation, and Hitler seemed to have adored her out of genuine affection.
Alois's paternity on the other hand is somewhat uncertain, and there have been persistent rumours that his father was a jew. Under Hitler's own laws (if this was true) this might have been enough to get him banned from certain places under his own laws, which is a wonderful irony.
Hitler's psyche appears to have been influenced by a number of different elements, including his experiences in the First World War. I'm no shrink though, and it's my guess that he was just a freakish little psycho who was unable to form genuine attachements to anyone and who was a brutal thug.

Conspiracy Theorist,
I would suggest that while you investigate all of the nuances and subtleties of history that you broaden your horizons. Why the extreme interest in jewish extermination? Why don't you call into question the official count of the Armenians executed and starved by the Turks during WWI? After all, Turkey claims that it was only ~600,000 and that the deaths were the result of "tribal and ethnic tensions" and not a campaign of extermination. Most of the international scholarship puts the death toll of the ethnic Armenians between 1.2 and 1.6 million, and contend that it was an intentional ethnic purging put into effect by the Turks while the world was preoccupied with the "Great War." Why don't you question the killing fields of Cambodia? How many people did Pol Pot really kill? Did the Kmer Rouge really have quotas for urine collection from their population, or is all of this propaganda?

My point is, be inquisitive, ask questions, assume nothing, and trust your instinct after reviewing and examining multiple sources with conflicting interests. Then you will be able to find truth.

By the way, how did "international zionism" benefit by the Taiping Rebellion? After all, they control everything right?

Don't forget to use both sides of your brain!