What is the big deal with denying the Holocaust?

attempts to deny the existance of the camps et al. usually surround equally dubious polemics by right wingers trying to somehow exhonerate the Nazis, which is simply not on.

I dont think any holocaust "deniers" (AKA Revisionists) actually dispute the existance of the camps, just about whether or not the Jewish people were sent there to be killed by the german government.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant and ignorant speech is best dealt with by opposing speech that exposes it IMHO, not by laws to stifle it. However all these deniers are nothing more than thugs that belong wearing white robes or wearing swastikas.

Originally posted by Sparkie the Wondersnail
People are jailed because they try to tell everyone else that the Holocaust did not happen. They are trying to change a historical truth into a made up conspiracy. History is written by the victors, someone said. It is also written by whatever records last long enough. If we have 300 records from holocaust deniers live 500 years and only 20 survivor accounts survive 500 years, which would you believe? Most would believe the deniers because more of their records survived. This is why it is important to jail deniers, their own personal beliefs don't change anything, it is when they get on talk shows, radio shows, cable tv, write books that refute survivor evidence etc. that makes it important to have it against the law to write untruth.

So a book based on fact that refutes evidence provided to the public should be banned? if u dont want to read or listen to them, dont buy the book or watch the talk show.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Sunlight is the best disinfectant and ignorant speech is best dealt with by opposing speech that exposes it IMHO, not by laws to stifle it. However all these deniers are nothing more than thugs that belong wearing white robes or wearing swastikas.

That is ignorance at its best.

I am what u would call a holocaust denier. but i dont deny the fact that millions of Jewish people were sent to camps throughout Europe and forced to work.

What i dont believe is that 6 million Jewish people were gassed on the order of the German government. I believe that the number is disputable, i also believe that the large numbers of Jewish people who died, died of Typhus. i also believe the Zyklon-B cansiters that were found were used to delouse beds and clothing to try and end the spread of the disease.

I dont believe the witness accounts. Im sorry but there are parts of the story that can be disproven.

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear... Is it true about the gas ovens in Poland?" - George Orwell

[edit on 14-12-2005 by Beelzebubba]

If the book is based on real evidence I can't really say that they should be jailed, but if the book has no real evidence then it is just propaganda and supporting hate literature. Some countries support jailing people who write and promote hatred of another group. You can hate anyone you want but when you try to promote that hatred then it goes to the next level.

How would you feel if I told you that only 3 people died in the World Trade Center when you personally lost 15 friends and relatives. Its not a big difference in numbers. But you really know that those people were lost. Can you produce their death certificates? now you probably could. Would it make you angry that I don't agree, yes. Now 50 years down the road, I still say that only 3 people died, I have their death certificates to prove that they died. But I can't find any more, nor do I want to look. My proof is enough for me. But you say no I knew 15 people who really died in that disaster. Oh yeah, says I, show me their death certificates.
Well you go to show me and find that the building that housed all the original documentation moved it to another location, that location burned to the ground and the records were lost. What about microfilm? Well those records were destroyed because someone didn't keep the temperature correctly in the record room, but we have back ups on computer. Damn the computer crashed, can't get the record for you sorry.

I say where is your proof? You couldn't get it could you--so that proves that only 3 people died in the Trade Ctr disaster because we have only 3 death certificates that say they died. It was no big deal. More people die in 2 car accidents than died at the Trade Ctr that day. I don't understand why anyone would want to put up a monument to a disaster where only 3 people died.

-------
This is a gross oversimplification, but I tried to use a reference that is still questionable, still remembered and still emotionally loaded for people. I don't remember how many people died in the WTC disaster. But most people think it was a big deal and deserves a monument. Some people think it was a conspiracy. Both of which could also apply to the Holocaust.
I hope you get my point.

in response, and in kind. id like to say that i think 95% of people have trouble believing the facts that were provided regarding 9/11.

why is it that i would be free to question the 9/11 incident in germany but not the holocaust?

So what if i wanna examine the evidence and make up my own mind. Does this make me a nazi, or a free thinking person acting of my own free will?

I didn't read the posts but I will answer the question...

Go up to a black person and tell them slavery never happened and gauge their response.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
And what if, as demonstrated by the above failure to provide a quote, the accused did not ever deny the Holocaust?

Zundel:

According to Zundel and his ilk the Holocaust did not happen. In his own words in a March 9, 2004 tape-recorded interview he says, "the Holocaust is the most diabolical lie." In that same interview he proclaims to be "sick of the bone counting" in reference to the extermination of the Jews.

Canada finally expels despicable hatemonger

And further from the man who has Jewish ancestry, Zundel:

...Not only is the Holocaust described as a "legend," but its alleged victims, as well as those engaged in a so-called remembrance, are characterized as "holocaust racketeers."[35] The Holocaust, Zündel asserts, is:

a gigantic hoax which cynically and diabolically aims at blackmailing the German people all over the world.... There were no "six million holocaust victims." There was no Nazi genocide programme. There were no gas chambers for "exterminating" Jews or anybody else. The Second World War caused tremendous suffcring on all sides - German and Jew, Axis and Allied. None were the victors; all were the victims. But I repeat THERE WAS NO JEWISH HOLOCAUST.[36]

This claim is elaborated elsewhere: "My conclusion... is that no such extermination programme ever existed and that it is wartime hate propaganda masquerading as history."[37]


Notes:
36. Zündel flyer on letterhead of Concerned Parents of German Descent addressed "To Our Fellow Canadians" [1979?], in TJC-JCRC-Zündel.

37. Zündel flyer addressed "To the People of Canada" and headlined "Attorney General Attempts Cover-Up and Censorship," attached to memo from B. G. Kayfetz to Morley Wolfe re "Zündel," December 3, 1979, in TJC-JCRC-Zündel.

The Zundel Affair:The Cause
Notes






seekerof

[edit on 14-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by ArchAngel
And what if, as demonstrated by the above failure to provide a quote, the accused did not ever deny the Holocaust?

Zundel:

According to Zundel and his ilk the Holocaust did not happen. In his own words in a March 9, 2004 tape-recorded interview he says, "the Holocaust is the most diabolical lie." In that same interview he proclaims to be "sick of the bone counting" in reference to the extermination of the Jews.

Canada finally expels despicable hatemonger






seekerof

How odd.

A search for: Zundel "diabolical lie" yeilds only one result, and thats the one you gave.

You would think that if he had actually said it there would be at least two or three references.

Given the fact that so many people are claiming he denied the Holocaust and extreme legal measures taken why isn't this single damning piece of evidence only found on one single web site?

What I smell is an editorial rant that was not fully researched.

[edit on 14-12-2005 by ArchAngel]

Erm, you might want to read my edit in the above preceeding post, k?

Zundel's brochures tell no lie.
The quotes of him saying what he said tell no lie.

You are simply now and have been in delusional paradox: denial.

I feel sooooo sorry for you, not, but hey, my offer of a Holocaust debate within ATS is still on, ArchAngel. How about put your rhetoric and holocaust denial knowledge to the test of merit and truth?






seekerof

[edit on 14-12-2005 by Seekerof]

How about put your rhetoric and holocaust denial knowledge to the test of merit and truth?

Its not an issue I have a great passion for.

Personally I think that is was 1-2 million, and it is all meaningless today.

But it was jammed up on the front page so I played devils advocate.

I would like to see a copy of the supposed letter.

In proper context I'm sure he qualified the remarks.

Wolfofwar, let me begin to answer your post above by quoting sparky the wonder snail:

This is why it is important to jail deniers, their own personal beliefs don't change anything, it is when they get on talk shows, radio shows, cable tv, write books that refute survivor evidence etc. that makes it important to have it against the law to write untruth.

I think sparky speaks for a lot of people here, in that if you don't jail people with whom you disagree, they just might convince others to disagree with you.

I suppose that's why he's probably in favor of jailing the "chem-trail" believers, or the "9-11 conspiracy believers", etc. Heaven help us if someone can convince anyone else of their opinion -- if that opinion is not shared by sparky!

Lock 'em up and throw away the key, right, sparky?

I think 'Holocaust Deniers' should be allowed to purport their beliefs and definately should not be jailed. Because this is such a sensitive subject it raises beliefs that extreme punishment should be doled out. If there is no evidence to support the 'Deniers' then their theories fall flat and that should be the end of it. But if there is evidence, should we not look at that objectively as well? This is the advantage of living in a 'free' society.

Jailing people for their beliefs is doing exactly what Hitler did to those that opposed him.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by Beelzebubba]

Originally posted by RebelSaint
I didn't read the posts but I will answer the question...

Go up to a black person and tell them slavery never happened and gauge their response.

I dont think answers anything. maybe u should read the enitire thread then post a reply....

Worst...

Thread...

Ever...

Seriously, are you stupid? Do you really not see "the big deal' with denying it happened?

The shame of EU never ends. Those who is in prison now

HAVE NOT DENYED the Holocaust.

From the trials after WWII whitnesses told about a RUMOR about gas-chambers. But when these withnesses did arrive and pushed into the 'gas room' it wasn't gas wich came out, but water.

We all have learned how to wiew rumors and news in wartimes. Most of it is propaganda and not to be thrusted. That Israel choose to ignore the facts about the Holocaust and repeat the WWII propaganda are their problem and shame, and not our problem.

Facts;
the only other party than the nazi party accepted was the zionist party.
the nazists and zionists had the same agendas, like having the jews live separately from other people.
Germany was low on resourches. Would a nation low on resourches really waste it all on gas chambers and crematoriums when they had a war on their hands?
Arial photos show no unusual amount of crematoriums in or outside germany. If the germans really had cremated 6 million jews + any number of other people (russian warprisoners, polakks, gupsies) they would have needed hundreds of crematoriums, not just one.
Tyfus was a problem in the camps and german documents from the tribunals shw the camps were ordered to fight the tyfus in order to stop the deaths. With other words, the germans were NOT interested in killing jews. After all, they were allied with the zionists and the high number of jews dying for tyfus were unacceptable.
The germans looked down on anyone not of their own people and treated all equally bad, not just jews. Germany was low on food so it was not just jews who starved. Everyone except the rich starved near the end of the war.

Nasists, fasists and zionists are all alike in that they are racistic and hateful towards anyone but their own.

Originally posted by Ghaele
The shame of EU never ends. Those who is in prison now

HAVE NOT DENYED the Holocaust.

Those labeled Holocaust-deniers have indeed stated that the Holocaust never happened. The dispute is whether or not they should be in jail. Personally, they reap what they sow. Holocaust denial laws were in place long before the now-generations crys over freedom of speech. The issue to me is not about freedom of speech, it is about simple and blatant ignorance in denying historical FACT, and as a holocaust denier, they purposely LIE to change again what is historical fact. Shed a tear for them if you must, shed a tear that their alleged freedom of speech is beiung hampered, for in reality, freedom of speech is not a right, it is a priviledge. Let me guess, with you and others, freedom of speech implies that you can say and assert anything you what, huh? Not! I will not shed one damn tear for those holocaust deniers that have allegedly had their freedom of speech taken away, not a one.

From the trials after WWII whitnesses told about a RUMOR about gas-chambers. But when these withnesses did arrive and pushed into the 'gas room' it wasn't gas wich came out, but water.

The witnesses told about rumors?
Did the VICTIMS?!
Tell you what: how about provide some legit sourcing to back your assertion concerning those witnesses?

We all have learned how to wiew rumors and news in wartimes. Most of it is propaganda and not to be thrusted. That Israel choose to ignore the facts about the Holocaust and repeat the WWII propaganda are their problem and shame, and not our problem.

Source?
Israel rightly choose to ignore what you and your ilk, called holocaust deniers have asserted and claimed. One: were you there? If not, how can you and your ilk rightly dismiss what those Jews that were there claim? You can not, period! What the shame is that you and your ilk are given the space you are to spread the lies, half-facts, and garbage that you do.

Facts;
the only other party than the nazi party accepted was the zionist party.
the nazists and zionists had the same agendas, like having the jews live separately from other people.

Source?
Zionist party had no governmental power in Germany. Nuremburg laws ring a bell to you? Kristalnacht ring a bell to you? How about the Wannsee Conference? How come those Zionists were not invited to attend the Wannsee Conference? Show me where the Zionist Party had any type political and governmental powers in Germany.

Germany was low on resourches. Would a nation low on resourches really waste it all on gas chambers and crematoriums when they had a war on their hands?

Source?
Ahh gee, I guess you forgot about bullets, huh?
Do you know how many Jews were killed by bullets in the woods of Poland and other areas? Probably not being you will simply blow that off too.

Arial photos show no unusual amount of crematoriums in or outside germany. If the germans really had cremated 6 million jews + any number of other people (russian warprisoners, polakks, gupsies) they would have needed hundreds of crematoriums, not just one.

Source?
Aerial photos mean squat. You been in a crematorium like used at Auschwitz, etc? You been in the remaining gas chambers? Have you seen the rooms full of hair? Have you seen anything likely to be considered legit in relation to the real Holocaust, not the fantasy-related holocaust deniers PC version? Take a trip and quite hiding behind your make believe conjectured denialist materials, maybe?

Tyfus was a problem in the camps and german documents from the tribunals shw the camps were ordered to fight the tyfus in order to stop the deaths. With other words, the germans were NOT interested in killing jews. After all, they were allied with the zionists and the high number of jews dying for tyfus were unacceptable.

Source?
German documents also tell of how many where exterminated by gas chamber, Zyklon-B, and carbon monoxide. Show me where the Germans were allied with the Zionists. Show me where the Germans did not blantantly and purposely target and kill in excess of 6+ million of Jews, Slavs, Russians, Gypsies, mentally and physically handicapped, labor leaders, communist and socialists, etc, etc., etc., and etc! How about also show me where the Germans did not kill those deemed "unfit for society" in their Euthanasia programs while your at it.

The germans looked down on anyone not of their own people and treated all equally bad, not just jews. Germany was low on food so it was not just jews who starved. Everyone except the rich starved near the end of the war.

Source?
So. You want a tissue? Your incessant whining and defending the actions of German murderers is intolerable and inexcusable, as well as exaggerated. Mein Kampf must be a masterpiece in literature to you, huh?

Nasists, fasists and zionists are all alike in that they are racistic and hateful towards anyone but their own.

Do you see Zionist running around putting people in gas chambers or crematoriums, concentration work camps or death/extermination camps?
Back your incessant denial rhetoric with something remotely resembling F-A-C-T and s-o-u-r-c-e-s....






seekerof

[edit on 15-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by GhaeleArial photos show no unusual amount of crematoriums in or outside germany. If the germans really had cremated 6 million jews + any number of other people (russian warprisoners, polakks, gupsies) they would have needed hundreds of crematoriums, not just one.

first link of holocaust photo search in google:
shamash.org...

first pic in that link? aerial photo of crematorium




the ignorance in denying this well documented historical fact is frightening. Arguining over the numbers killed is pathetic. if it was one million or 6 million or 20 million, when one group tries to systematically exterminate another group it is an atrocity.

Denying the Holocaust is like denying that that the Mayor of Hiroshima said Holi wah the fuk was dat ?