Are we fooling ourselves about 'free will?'

i see your point queen, but it seems like this is something we can never prove outside the realm of philosophy...

Originally posted by dnero6911

It has begun that a master will arise and teach us, but one will come soon that will put us all single file so we may all go the same way and reach our destination.

And if this person turns out to be the antichrist leading people single file to hell, remember that I told you this so that you can be aware of it.

Originally posted by 5Lostboy5
The same goes with your Life .. You can make decisions to do whatever you want to do ... it may cost you something .. But you already know what the cost is before you do it ... Free Will ... is something that EVERYONE has ... this is something that should never be contradicted ... For it is the one thing that has been here all throughout time ...

Since we're not making any progress, why don't you explain what you think "free will" means in the most concise terms possible.

Originally posted by dbrandt
And if this person turns out to be the antichrist leading people single file to hell, remember that I told you this so that you can be aware of it.

So you are saying 'avoid the narrow single-track' and 'opt for the wider one?'

Or know that in Greek 'anti' means exactly what it means in English.

It means opposite, but it also means 'instead of.'

As in antidote.

There we go, that wasn't a hard pill to swallow was it Neo?

Which one did you choose, the blue or the red?

Maybe, just maybe you chose the purple - but need someone to explain it to you a bit more.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by dbrandt
And if this person turns out to be the antichrist leading people single file to hell, remember that I told you this so that you can be aware of it.

So you are saying 'avoid the narrow single-track' and 'opt for the wider one?'

No, I am saying that we are warned by Jesus several times that we must beware of deception especially in the last days.

We are also warned that there is a lie coming that many will believe.

And we are told that satan can also appear as an angel of light, and those who serve him can appear as ministers of righteousness.

And we are told that someone is coming to power for a brief period of time before the return of Christ. This person will work for satan and not God and some even believe it will be satan incarnate.

Originally posted by dbrandt

No, I am saying that we are warned by Jesus several times that we must beware of deception especially in the last days.

We are also warned that there is a lie coming that many will believe.

And we are told that satan can also appear as an angel of light, and those who serve him can appear as ministers of righteousness.

And we are told that someone is coming to power for a brief period of time before the return of Christ. This person will work for satan and not God and some even believe it will be satan incarnate.

Don't worry about it too much - if and when it comes to pass, we will have to deal with it at that time...

Originally posted by dnero6911

Freewill encompasses the ability to control the weather in your immediate presence as well as at a distance, the ability to control fire, the ability to change water into wine, the ability to heal and also to harm, the ability to transfer thought and emotion without telephone or computer, the ability to build with no tools, the ability to accomplish absolutely anything. that is freewill not simple deciding where you take your next crap.

[edit on 12/12/05 by dnero6911]

These are all things that god has done ... in the bible. Well, let me re phrase these are all things that it says god has done or MOses .. or someone under the DIRECT instruction of God. Some of these are traits , build with no tools ... you mean speak it into place .. ???? You are talking about MAgic ... not Freewill ... Freewill .. is the freedom to do anything that you want to do ...

Free will is the potential to make a choice or decision proceeding from one's own consent.

Do you really have the Potetial to turn water into wine ??? Do you really have the potential to fly ?? NO and NO .... Freewill is somethign that you could do if you wanted to that someone is holding you from doing ...Even when you are in Jai l.. you have Freewill ... you got yourself thier!! You chose those decisions ... you have FREEWILL


P.S. SpamandHam .. We were having civilized Conersation here where did all these other people come from talking about random things ??? Such as Jesus ... Why does everyone have to go there ?


[edit on 13-12-2005 by 5Lostboy5]

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by dbrandt
And if this person turns out to be the antichrist leading people single file to hell, remember that I told you this so that you can be aware of it.

So you are saying 'avoid the narrow single-track' and 'opt for the wider one?'

No, I am saying that we are warned by Jesus several times that we must beware of deception especially in the last days.

We are also warned that there is a lie coming that many will believe.

And we are told that satan can also appear as an angel of light, and those who serve him can appear as ministers of righteousness.

And we are told that someone is coming to power for a brief period of time before the return of Christ. This person will work for satan and not God and some even believe it will be satan incarnate.

Duh! No kidding!

jk, I'm not exploding or angry just jumping up and down (so to speak) in an ironic mixture of comical frustration long suppressed by genuine reluctance...

Forgive me if I disregard your warning, though--although I know your intentions are not at all inclined toward deceit--I see this that we are warned against already--but yet it is something that I know you will most likely instinctively deny (and so it is something I, without fail, hesitate to so blatantly blurt out in any situation) but yet I cannot deny its certainty--once revealed, the previously 'unseen' can never be made to go back into hiding...

I should be warning you--and I've tried, but I know that it sounds so arrogant and self-righteous no matter how far from those types of motives my words arise from--and I am not at all trying to show you up or validate my own POV--I don't even have an opinion anymore about some things, no validation necessary.

This deception--this so easy-to-be-believed lie--the 'strong delusion' of 2 Thessalonians 2:11--has already been in place, since Paul's time--he himself said that was the case--and you are warning against something you have, yourself, already fallen victim to. It is mainstream christianity, which came from the Roman Empire, not Christ--which the majority of the world has not questioned as 'authority' and has generally been the basis for both belief in and of God as well as against the possibility. It is the biggest source of global disinformation and truly the most major conspiracy that has ever been...the dreaded antichrist is even called by the same name.

It is a test! It's been going on for something like 1600 years and no one truly ever questioned whether it was really right--I include myself--I was no less deceived than anyone else! The only difference in my own life that I can see is that while I never questioned the authority of christianity in general, I have never been able to accept it personally--yet was born with conviction that Christ was what the bible and tradition says--the Son of the Living God. Just because it didn't make sense to me that christianity is so unbiblical never once made me feel that it was not right for anyone who felt it was right for them to submit to. I think minding one's own business is a definite virtue--and I certainly prefer to mind my own so that no one else has to...

I have never been one to meddle in another's spiritual privacy--and I held mine more private than anything else private in my life. I've continually sought for God's word my entire 37 years of life, in the secret purity of my heart, and have never judged or shunned someone else for their spiritual outlook--and truly, if I had my choice, I'd be no different in this very moment. Five years ago, if someone had said I'd be spending these days in the fashion I have been, discussing subjects such as religion and theology on internet forum boards and with my friends and even strangers (no matter how hard I try to avoid the subject in 'real life' that is, off-line--it always comes up these days in almost every conversation with other people--and not by my mention) I'd have laughed so hard I'd have been reduced to a teary eyed doubled-over nut on the floor from the sheer pain of the hilarity of such a suggestion! No way! Religion and politics--two no win discussions which I had no interest in.

I still don't care to talk about politics.

But God won't let me keep my mouth shut about religion. I'm sure the only reason I have any preliminary clue as to who 'that wicked is' which is on the threshold of being fully revealed to the whole world is for the sole purpose of spilling the beans--so those who might hear and wish to 'opt-out' will find their impetus.

I didn't need such information--I've never put my faith in religion--I didn't believe the lie as personally applied, although I didn't question it in general, either--I was deceived in a less dangerous fashion but totally in the dark, just the same. I also have been so far removed from the trends in christianity that I am still often shocked at what is passed off as scriptural proof for totally unbiblical doctrines. And I keenly understand, as well, that my personal lack of investment in such a now-clearly-revealed delusion makes it easier for me to admit I've been hornswaggled by the best....it doesn't threaten my safety net of spiritual trust in God or mar any sense of personal pride I once had. But for most I know it's an almost insurmountable obstacle. The need to maintain a static state of mind and belief regarding God is confused as 'faith' and equals stagnation and zero progress toward God.

The last 7 years have been overwhelming and if they can't be described as being tried and refined in the furnace of affliction, then that whole concept is unfounded. But trust me, it's for real and has changed me 100% in ways I never thought even possible--or even desired to change, of my own volition.

The only reason, and I repeat the absolute only reason I have for what probably seems like relentless baiting and dogging your every post on this forum is that I hope and pray that somehow, someway, something I say will trigger your sense of discernment or stir up what I know without a doubt is your true love and desire to serve God--even if in the sense of trying to prove my words wrong you stumble upon the truth for yourself--and the scales fall from your indoctrinated eyes in a brilliant overwhelming light of God's true mystery! I try to not offend you, yet I'm always seeking to startle you or snap your attention to the clear view--I didn't care how you believed you came upon the truth, once you did--even if you had an extreme dislike and annoyance at seeing my very name on a post--the only thing that matters is that you quit believing the lie that you reflexively and instantly defend with the standard formula.

God is testing you, dbrandt, yet you are too attached to what you've believed
God is all about to just believe God. Paul says 'those that take pleasure in unrighteousness' and that is exactly the source of your indoctrination--you have believed man instead of God and it shows undeniably in every word you say about Him. Forget all that--it doesn't matter--the only thing that matters is that you listen only inside, to God--He will not let you be led astray if you'd only listen to him and not the drivel you find on those websites you often link to. Don't believe me, search for yourself--in the bible, and not at www.gotquestions.org. God is not a webmaster. :shk:

I'm sorry to let go on you like this in this mostly unrelated thread--but it is a thread I started--and you brought the subject up, yourself, in such a straightforward manner that to not blurt these things out would have felt, to me, like I was being deceitful if I had just swallowed these words once again, as I have already done, countless times. I can't even say I that I hope I haven't offended you--that concern fell away once I decided to push you into the bush instead of chasing you around it.

[color=#FF0000]Ezekiel chapters 3 and 18.

Enough said, I think. But truly heard? I hope and pray....

Thank you, Queenannie38.

Your post resonates with wisdom and deserves my last 'applaud' for the month.

Quite likely the best post I've read this month on any topic.

Originally posted by 5Lostboy5
... Freewill .. is the freedom to do anything that you want to do ...

Ok. The question then becomes, why do you make a particular decision?

Originally posted by 5Lostboy5
P.S. SpamandHam .. We were having civilized Conersation here where did all these other people come from talking about random things ??? Such as Jesus ... Why does everyone have to go there ?

It never fails. We'll be dragged into an evolution discussion here shortly too.

Absolutely not! Not one word about evolution on this, my very own thread...

Or creationism.

Those are still too political and irrelevant, IMO, to bring me into the discussion.


I think the issue of 'how, when, and who' is secondary to the question of free will which almost suggests 'can we?'

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Thanks, Masqua, for your quiet and peaceful encouragement.

[edit on 12/13/2005 by queenannie38]

Free will is the potential to make a choice or decision proceeding from one's own consent.

What is one's own Consent .... ????

Bu thtat is not the true question here ... The true Question is What does that person ave the potential to do .. if there is no potential there then the person does not have the potential to even do this thing ... Then it is not a part of there "WILL" at all .. So someone taking away this action would not be taking away that persons right or will .. because ... that person never had the Right or Will to do such things.

'Free will' is the state which comes from the potential becoming reality.

Originally posted by queenannie38
'Free will' is the state which comes from the potential becoming reality.

I think we may need to have a vote on definitions ... LoL ... =-)

Originally posted by DruidTek

Don't worry about it too much - if and when it comes to pass, we will have to deal with it at that time...

I won't be here when this happens.

Yes, people will have to deal with it at that time, BUT it's important to understand what is going to happen. Being deceived means you are being tricked/fooled but you don't know that. What is false and wrong will seem to be true and right. That's why people need to know ahead of time.

Plus it is escapable(not that it won't happen but you don't have to be here to go through it).

Originally posted by queenannie38
Duh! No kidding!

jk, I'm not exploding or angry just jumping up and down (so to speak) in an ironic mixture of comical frustration long suppressed by genuine reluctance...

I wanted to respond to this post but I kinda did here
www.belowtopsecret.com...

But i was also wondering who jk is?

Still, free-will is exactly the ability to do as one pleases...

and I'm very sorry you don't see the potential for man to fly, or turn water into wine... it is very possible.. please check into modern day science.. the things we are JUST learning to do are exactly that... Suppose if you could mentally arrange the molecules to form whatever it is you needed, you should be able to.... Will is very strong, Will also requires faith, some peoples faith isn't as strong as others.. and for that we will have to start another conversation .. I have to go now, but will continue with this another time, perhaps tomorrow.

dbrandt, thanks for the link to your response.

'jk' means 'just kidding.'

Originally posted by dnero6911
Still, free-will is exactly the ability to do as one pleases...

and I'm very sorry you don't see the potential for man to fly, or turn water into wine...

I do. I have. Not the wine, but the flying....

Will is very strong, Will also requires faith, some peoples faith isn't as strong as others.. and for that we will have to start another conversation .. I have to go now, but will continue with this another time, perhaps tomorrow.

It is a gift to believe that way, IMO. I know I certainly can't credit for the way I am, as far as never having much fear of anything and never not just doing what I set out to do...

The most precious thing I was given was the strength to be a loner, with little regard for other's ideas--preferring to be self-taught I have learned more than a lifetime's worth of stuff. And I'm only 37.