Where would the world be without the US?

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
Europe is still suffering from the lack of labour and a low birth rate affecting its work force, that is a long term problem, give it a chance.

Germany did recovery fast after WWII, especially during the Cold War, for political reasons. Nonetheless from a war torn nation Germany established itself as the third, or forth country with the highest GNP.

No Europes lack of population growth is due to the fact their lifestyle changes have resulted in families having less children and the use of birth control is the highest it has been in Western history. Europe has shaken off the effects of WW2 (save for some regards Russia) and owe their low birth rate to the fact with a large immigrant labor force they don't need to have large families anymore.

And yes West Germany did recover rather fast after the war even though Stalin did impose the blockade and Nikita put up the wall but hey who overcame those problems America . The Berlin airlift the largest humanitarian airlift in history was under the command of who? The United States Airforce

Yes Germany is a great nation but as I said above the greatness of Germany was built on the West side and when it reunited with the East it absorbed a group of people who had never experienced unemployment. So when they realized the potential in social welfare a lot of people in the East refused to seek new jobs and simply have been sucking off of Germany's rather large social welfare systems teet for quite some time.

As for the war on terroorism, being as an American Agent47 you have no place to critisize the Spanish or British authority on the success of the Madrid and London terrorist attacks. Even with the branch of CIA spreading as far from Tokyo to Israel, from Liberia to Seoul, covering virtually the entire globe, and with the Navy SEALS or the Delta Force claiming to be the best special forces on the planet, i see no prevention for the catastrophic destruction of the Twin Towers and attack on the Pentagon itself, a symbolism emble for the American military might and power, causing more than 5 times the civilian casualties with the bombings of Madrid and London added together.


[edit on 20-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

Yes as a person on the planet Earth (beyond being an American) I must deal with the threat of global terrorism so I do have the ability to hold an opinion of how the rest of the world deals with the problem.

Quite simply after Madrid the Spanish gave up . They elected a leftist president and quickly withdrew from the effort in Iraq to stabilize the Middle East with democracy.


And on another note I'm a subject of the queen too So being a dual citizen I have the right to question Tony Blair and his response. I choose not too because it was a lot better than the Spaniards.

And your claims concerning 9/11

The military (SEALs, Delta Force) and the intelligence agencies can't do much when they were practically neutered in the 1970s of their power to conduct effective counter terror operations. That is not to say the intelligence agencies couldn't have done a better job but I don't agree with your critique of American special forces. They operate when a threat is seen and prior to 9/11 America was too dumb fat and happy to see a threat.

And another thing if you didnt know most countries intelligence agencies operate on a global scale. If you don't believe me check out the Massad or China's intelligence aparatus.

You can't really compare 9/11 to Madrid and London simply because they happened after the threat of global terorism had been realized. Has there been an American domestic terror attack since 9/11? I don't think so but after 9/11 terror still struck in Madrid and London because they didn't see the threat of islamofacism as a real one. Rather short sided for countries that rely heavily on Arab immigration for labor.

Well now that this got moved it looks like a pretty good discussion got killed. Anyway,well put Agent47, i couldn't agree more

Originally posted by zoso28
Well now that this got moved it looks like a pretty good discussion got killed. Anyway,well put Agent47, i couldn't agree more

Its probably better they move it here because this sort of discussion always results in the use of ethnic slurs.

Really if you want to think about the original question of where would the world be if it were not for the US...

The landmass of north America would likely have been dominated by the English. The French would have been beaten out of what is currently Florida. Spain would have kept a stronger foot hold in the south west.

England would have flourished with the massive amounts of resources and would have completely dominated the Atlantic with Naval power.

During WWII Spain and England would have allied with Russia and entered into WWII earlier with greater force preventing Germany form getting as strong a hold in the Middle east and north Africa. Japan likely would have had less time to develop a foot hold in the south Pacific because of England’s interests in Australia and East Africa.

Because of this WWII would have ended several years earlier. Russia would likely have gotten better post WWII support by England being such a close neighbor and thus there would not have been the post WWII animosity developing into the cold war.

France would have still been taken soon in WWII because of the early elimination of their officers.. but with greater English support they would have suffered less and I think there would have been ultimately better relations between France and England then there ever has been in the past.

The UN likely would be more stable with greater financing from a dominant England allowing for greater control o the middle east.. though due to theological differences it would still be a hotspot for violence.

Because of general mindsets and policy on guns there would be far less violent crime, higher alcoholism, lower drug violence and everyone in north America would have sexy accents.

This is where the world would be.

Originally posted by MrBunny
Because of general mindsets and policy on guns there would be far less violent crime, higher alcoholism, lower drug violence and everyone in north America would have sexy accents.
This is where the world would be.

I know you're joking because of that last bit. The rest is pure unadulterated poo, because look at the natural resources available to the brits in India (not to mention australia) and all of the other colonies but they couldn't get off the pot because of one reason or another.

The only empire that could compair with us is Rome. And unfortunately like them we will eventually fall. Just not anytime soon, thank the One.

Though the last quip about the accent may have sounded like I was kidding on the whole.. I am sorry but no. My model would have been fairly accurate. As for what England did or did not do with Australia or India… you are not thinking 4th dimensionally as Dr. Brown would say.

England would have gained dominion of north America at the end of the 1700’s several years prior to the colonies in Australia or India. The primary source of energy at the time was coal, a rather common item found in north America.. as well as iron ore, timber, copper.

England would never have done anything cause they would have been stuck on the pot?!? Stuck on the pot? The Empire that managed to settle so many areas of this planet that at one point the sun never set on the English Empire. The Empire that has lasted for almost a millennium and has lasted longer than the Roman Empire.

As hand puppet might say to you… “Read a book!!” preferably one that involves world history, English history, French history ( We would have lost the American war for independence if it were not for the French)

www.cia.gov...

No formal territorial claims were made until 1770, when Capt. James COOK took possession in the name of Great Britain. Six colonies were created in the late 18th and 19th centuries; they federated and became the Commonwealth of Australia in 1901. The new country took advantage of its natural resources to rapidly develop its agricultural and manufacturing industries and to make a major contribution to the British effort in World Wars I and II.

www.cia.gov...


By the 19th century, Britain had assumed political control of virtually all Indian lands. Indian armed forces in the British army played a vital role in both World Wars. Nonviolent resistance to British colonialism led by Mohandas GANDHI and Jawaharlal NEHRU brought independence in 1947.


Viva la France
God save the Queen
And may the gods help the USA

Without the U.S.

This web site would not exist...

If it did somehow exist, we wouldn't be speaking English. German or Russian would be the language used.

Reality bites heh?

Originally posted by LostSailor
Without the U.S.

This web site would not exist...

If it did somehow exist, we wouldn't be speaking English. German or Russian would be the language used.

Reality bites heh?

seeing as this is a hypothetical scenario i don't see how reality comes into it. We have history, trends, and possible models.. nothing more.

However, i have stated my model.. I have yet to see a logical response as to why i would be wrong.

So.. instead of annoying bravado comments alluding that the world would have been thrust into the dark ages if it were not for the great and benevolent USA... try backing it up with a little thought.

Thank you for playing.... NEXT!!!

Originally posted by MrBunny
So.. instead of annoying bravado comments alluding that the world would have been thrust into the dark ages if it were not for the great and benevolent USA... try backing it up with a little thought.

At least we agree that living under communism would be akin to being thrust into the dark ages.

I'll try to keep my annoying bravado comments to myself... If you keep your petty elitists ones to yourself.

No one argues that your thoughts on where the world would be without the U.S. are wrong because there is no way to prove it. Prove to me that my thoughts (oh thats right I don't think) are wrong.

Originally posted by LostSailor

Originally posted by MrBunny
So.. instead of annoying bravado comments alluding that the world would have been thrust into the dark ages if it were not for the great and benevolent USA... try backing it up with a little thought.

At least we agree that living under communism would be akin to being thrust into the dark ages.

I'll try to keep my annoying bravado comments to myself... If you keep your petty elitists ones to yourself.

No one argues that your thoughts on where the world would be without the U.S. are wrong because there is no way to prove it. Prove to me that my thoughts (oh thats right I don't think) are wrong.

There is a difference between not thinking and building a hypothetical scenario by taking into account existing historical patterns. If you can explain why Germany or Russia would have been dominant if not for the USA then i would love to hear it.

Granted if there were no north American, or it remained largely unpopulated or un-advanced during WWI or WWII then that would create a far different model as i doubt that WWII would have ever happened.

I would like to know what is elitist about asking someone to back up their comments with some attempt at logical thought.

North America would be heavily controlled by British and other European colonies, the United States would exists because the orignal states were the 13 British ones. The Union would have Queen Elizbeth II as head of State. Maybe, there would be fighting between the colonies and it may result in complete Spanish and British control. Both will probably sign some sort of treaty.

errmm...Britian may still been a superpower,(with the Republic of Ireland still in the Union) they would of probably been no Israel and the middle east would have been ignored by the West. Problems in the Pacific will still be around. South America will probably have some European colonies due to control in the North allow easy access.

The communist block would still be here in Europe. The whole of Germany would of been communist. Africa will also been controlled by European Colonies. Tension between China and the British Empire(or common wealth) would be high due to the British still owning Hong Kong.

As you can see from my prediction on what could of been, the world would have been still controlled by European Imperialism.

Oh... You want proof for my "hypothetical" model on where the world would be without the U.S.?

"However, i have stated my model.. I have yet to see a logical response as to why i would be wrong."

I'll borrow your proof as a logical explanation for my opinion.

We are talking about a situation that does not exist... You think that without the U.S. that World War 2 wouldn't have existed. I think it still would have and we probably wouldn't have won the war. Therefore, I think Democracy would be a side note in some German history book and we wouldn't have the opportunity to express our thoughts on public forum like this.

If the Russians and the rest of the allies did take care of the Germans in World War 2 I think they would have spread their Communist thoughts throughout the world by force. There wouldn't have been a Cold War because... Well... There wouldn't be enough opposition to Communism for it to exist.

I am not some chest thumping U.S. is greater then all type person. Which I know is the pre-conceived notion by many people who live outside of the U.S. The U.S. couldn't have won either war without the help of our allies.

*My opinion on this hypothetical situation*

Originally posted by infinite
North America would be heavily controlled by British and other European colonies, the United States would exists because the orignal states were the 13 British ones. The Union would have Queen Elizbeth II as head of State. Maybe, there would be fighting between the colonies and it may result in complete Spanish and British control. Both will probably sign some sort of treaty.

errmm...Britian may still been a superpower,(with the Republic of Ireland still in the Union) they would of probably been no Israel and the middle east would have been ignored by the West. Problems in the Pacific will still be around. South America will probably have some European colonies due to control in the North allow easy access.

The communist block would still be here in Europe. The whole of Germany would of been communist. Africa will also been controlled by European Colonies. Tension between China and the British Empire(or common wealth) would be high due to the British still owning Hong Kong.

As you can see from my prediction on what could of been, the world would have been still controlled by European Imperialism.

agreed... unless France allied with Spain to break up the english rule much like they did with us.

Originally posted by MrBunny
agreed... unless France allied with Spain to break up the english rule much like they did with us.

True, and they tried that.
But Spain would of joined with Britian (fellow Crowns) due to France just kicked out their monarchy

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by MrBunny
agreed... unless France allied with Spain to break up the english rule much like they did with us.

True, and they tried that.
But Spain would of joined with Britian (fellow Crowns) due to France just kicked out their monarchy

Ohhhh yea.... they did didn't they.... i was thinking about the fact that they would still be upset about that whole Elizabeth I privateer thing....

I got to tell you... Elizabeth the first..... how freaking cool a monarch could you have!?!

Originally posted by MrBunny
I got to tell you... Elizabeth the first..... how freaking cool a monarch could you have!?!

She topped a poll on "Britians best monarch"
Queen Vicky came Second !

Also, remember, Britian owned Canada so Britian may of moved there Union States of America into Canada (just a theory, but it wouldn't of worked)

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by MrBunny
I got to tell you... Elizabeth the first..... how freaking cool a monarch could you have!?!

She topped a poll on "Britians best monarch"
Queen Vicky came Second

!

Also, remember, Britian owned Canada so Britian may of moved there Union States of America into Canada (just a theory, but it wouldn't of worked)

How could she not.. she took a completely crippled government, with no money, no standing army, in religious conflict and took it to the most powerful country in the world, into a artistic rebirth, stabilized the church of England.... why am I telling you this.. you live there.



anyway.... yea.. I thought bout the whole Canada thing... likely the USA would have been broken into or 4 English providences with a separate PM much like Canada is... simply too much landmass to govern otherwise.

yes we americans have done some wrong in the world. We've often done it for oil or to win the cold war or fight terror. but the good we've bought into the world, winning the world wars, Marshall plan, winning cold war far outweighs the bad.

1) Iraq
i dont deny that our intelligence was faulty, maybe bush lied to get the oil who knows. But did we not liberate 23 million people. Did we not free them from tyranny? That cannot be denied

2) war on terror
guantonamo bay, Patriot Act, yeah they aren't democratic but sometines democracy must be suspended in order to save it

People sleep peacebly in their beds because rough men(USA) stand ready to do violence on their behalf-George Orwell

RepublicanImperilist........With a name like that it shows your intelligence.

How is giving up some democratic values, helps in order to save it?

Wasnt it once said by a great man "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Thomas Jefferson.
Also another attributed to a great conserveative "The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts." Edmund Burke.

Yet you acturly listen to what bush&co tell you, you need to do to preserve your
liberty.

Lemme have my say on this quickly...

I support most (but not all ideologies) of some of the earlier presidents of the United States. Especially those who have done all in their power to fight the international bankers (the true scum of the Earth).

But especially since 1913, when that country came more and more under power of said bankers. The following has happened.

Sponsorship of the Russian Revolution, and installation of communism.... Because the Tsars didn't want a Central Bank. (See the Money Masters video)

IBM hollerith machines used in with Nazi concentration camps. With an IBM service contract at all concentration camps.

American corporations like Ford and DuPont still doing business with Nazi Germany even after the war had started.

Profits über Alles! American Corporations and Hitler

U.S. corporations and the Nazi's

Prescott Bush dealing with the Nazi's unti 1951:link

Economic Hitmen threatening or destroying all left leaning governments in South America over the decades

The CIA sponsoring of the 1954 coup in Guatemala (Operation PBSUCCESS)

The CIA sponsoring of the 2002 coup in Venezuela

The murder of JFK, Another president who stood up against the international bankers.

Obviously the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Although I did and still do support the 1990 gulf war.

And lots of other stuff has happened. Good and bad. Although I have mentioned some of the worse stuff here.

As long as the U.S. government is the slave of big corporations and especially the owners of the Federal Reserve, it will not be "by the people, for the people" like it used to be.



[edit on 30-5-2006 by TheBandit795]