Christmas Tree or Holiday Tree

It's that time of year again...time to put up the ? tree. Is it a christmas tree, or a holiday tree?

Yahoo News

I like the point one person made: "Why call it a holiday tree? Shouldn't do that any more than calling a Menorah a candlestick", however, I'm curious what others think. Isn't there some pagan association with the pine tree?

Any-who...

A HAPPY (fill in the blank) TO ALL, AND TO ALL, A GOOD NIGHT!!!

I have to admit that the article you found was interesting. People can be so weird.
Why not call it what it is? A Christmas tree. What? That is Politically Incorrect? Okay, let's call it a HOLY DAY TREE. -- ( Holiday tree ) What is the difference? Replace "Christ Mass" with "Holy Day" and it is acceptible? Makes no sense to me, but lots of things make no sense to me.
Things like people who believe that hunting is wrong but eat farm raised meat make no sense to me.
People who drive the speed limit then slow down when they see a police car make no sense to me.
People who profess to love their children but refuse to provide for them or abuse them make no sense to me.
I'd better quit before I get this list too long.
Back to the question you asked.

Isn't there some pagan association with the pine tree?

Yes, I think so. Seems that I recall hearing that people used to decorate trees before it was adopted for this Holiday. I'm not sure why though.
Have a Happy (alphabetically) Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanza. I hope I did not miss any.

It will always be a Christmas tree to me because that is the time of the year that I put it up--during Christmas time. If I put up around Easter I would call it a Easter tree, if I put it up during Halloween I would call it a Halloween tree.

Whether it is a "Christmas Tree" or a "Holiday Tree" it is still a tree cut down and killed for God.

Interesting twist on our perspectives, now isn't it?

Kill a tree for God
Plant a tree for Earth on Earth Day.

We kill for God, and create life for Earth.

Nice way of prioritizing.

It's a Christmas Tree!

A few more years of this politically correct crap though and everyone will be ready to give up Christmas all together! I've just about had myself. This is America, and we celebrate Christmas here. I don't get offended when somebody else wants to celebrate a Jewish Holiday, so why is everybody wigging out about Christmas?

I just find it interesting that almost all the symbols of Christian's "Christmas" are Druidic in nature.

The tree, Holly, Mistletoe!!! (how pagan can you get?), Circular wreaths, A magical Druid who flies with the help of Reindeer?

HAHAhahahahah I love it!

ahh the irony

Originally posted by MrBunny
I just find it interesting that almost all the symbols of Christian's "Christmas" are Druidic in nature.

The tree, Holly, Mistletoe!!! (how pagan can you get?), Circular wreaths, A magical Druid who flies with the help of Reindeer?

HAHAhahahahah I love it!

ahh the irony

So why are all the pagans so offended by Christmas?

ahhh... The irony.

I think we are the only two people posting today MrBunny.

Now stop arguing with me and go back in your hole!

Originally posted by LostSailor

So why are all the pagans so offended by Christmas?

ahhh... The irony.

I think we are the only two people posting today MrBunny.

Now stop arguing with me and go back in your hole!

I think most of the pagans are offended by christian's because of what the organized church did to them and their religion...

That whole inquisition thing.... was rather rude...

and there is still alot of negitivity comming from the more fanatical Christians reguarding anyone who is not christian. The whole you are burning in hell and we are the only true religion, you suck we don't thing.

I can't go back to my hole.. the government took it from my family in the name of their god.

Originally posted by MrBunny

Originally posted by LostSailor

So why are all the pagans so offended by Christmas?

I think most of the pagans are offended by christian's because of what the organized church did to them and their religion...

You misread my quote... I mentioned nothing about Christian's. Yes, there are zealots in every religion. But don't make the mistake many people do and assume all Christians are closed minded, whack-job, burn people at the stake types. Also, don't get confused and assume Catholicism is the sole form of Christianity.

In my opinion, most non-Christians have a beef with the more closed minded branches of Christianity. Not the more modern evangelical branches. I find you can usually tell the difference between the two by looking at one simple thing. Do they allow their preachers to marry.

*just my three cents*

Originally posted by MrBunny
I can't go back to my hole.. the government took it from my family in the name of their god.

You should move to the U.S. where you have the freedom to believe whatever it is you want to.

Originally posted by LostSailor

You misread my quote... I mentioned nothing about Christian's. Yes, there are zealots in every religion. But don't make the mistake many people do and assume all Christians are closed minded, whack-job, burn people at the stake types. Also, don't get confused and assume Catholicism is the sole form of Christianity.

In my opinion, most non-Christians have a beef with the more closed minded branches of Christianity. Not the more modern evangelical branches. I find you can usually tell the difference between the two by looking at one simple thing. Do they allow their preachers to marry.

*just my three cents*

You should move to the U.S. where you have the freedom to believe whatever it is you want to.

no I read it right... the reference was that allot of Pagans i have known are generally so fed up with Christina's a a whole they don’t bother taking the time to find out if they are the zealots or the moderates.. to bad really cause i know several really cool people who just happen to be Christian.. and I think that description is the key.

as for moving to the USA.... HAHAHAAA
I live in Maryland....

It was a low blow crack against the Bush administration.

anyway i am out for the day.. have fun see you tomorrow.

My quip about moving to the U.S. was a joke... Notice the at the end of the sentence.

Remember, in a Representative Republic such as the US, the majority rules. And the majority of Americans are Christians.

Also, you did misread my quote earlier. I mentioned nothing of Christians. I mentioned Christmas. As you pointed out in another post. Christ wasn't even born on Christmas. It just happens to be a Christian Holiday. When the Pagans have enough support to start their own holiday. They can rightly do so in the U.S.

I just don't see that happening in the near future.

*my four cents*

Originally posted by LostSailor
My quip about moving to the U.S. was a joke... Notice the

at the end of the sentence.

Remember, in a Representative Republic such as the US, the majority rules. And the majority of Americans are Christians.

Also, you did misread my quote earlier. I mentioned nothing of Christians. I mentioned Christmas. As you pointed out in another post. Christ wasn't even born on Christmas. It just happens to be a Christian Holiday. When the Pagans have enough support to start their own holiday. They can rightly do so in the U.S.

I just don't see that happening in the near future.

*my four cents*

There is no need for them to start a new holiday.. they simply keep celebrating the old holiday which happens to be the one that Christmas stepped on. Just like Easter and Beltane, Samhain and all Saints day.

our government is actually a Federalist Republic with a strong democratic tradition. This is a correction to my previous posts that listed the USA as a Democratic Republic.

Majority does not rule here, money rules here. Just because most people here claim a sect of Christianity as their chosen religion does not make them right or does not give them any special treatment in our framework of laws, and should not in our society.

As for not mentioning Christians only mentioning Christmas... well they kind of go hand in hand. A holiday is nothing but for those who celebrate it.



I see your 4 cents and raise you a nickel.

Of course it's a Christmas Tree.

No other holiday at this time uses a fur tree all decked out in
tinsle and bobbles and stars. It's only used for Christmas
therefore it's a Christmas Tree.

It is what it is.

Geeeeze ... why are people so afraid of the word Christmas?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Of course it's a Christmas Tree.

No other holiday at this time uses a fur tree all decked out in
tinsle and bobbles and stars. It's only used for Christmas
therefore it's a Christmas Tree.

It is what it is.

Geeeeze ... why are people so afraid of the word Christmas?

No other holiday uses a decked out fur tree?......

.......

.......

I am not sure if this guy is being serious or just being a smarta$$

Not many facts brought out in this thread. A disappointment.

This topic doesnt matter to me because I dont put up a Christmas Tree..

I dont celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween or any other holiday or even birthdays.

All days are the same to me ..that settles all the hoopla. It also keeps me off this kind of treadmill.
This does not make me better than other peoples ..I am just aware of what a treadmill it is..and choose not to participate.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by LostSailor
Remember, in a Representative Republic such as the US, the majority rules. And the majority of Americans are Christians.

The Bill of Rights limits the power of democracy in this country, and one of the things implied by the First Amendment, is that even though the majority of Americans may be Christians, we are not, and under the Constitution can never be, a Christian republic. (And thank the Goddess and the Founding Fathers for that!)

As for the thread question -- if you really want to be accurate, it's a Yule tree. We don't actually know when Jesus was born, but if you go by the Gospel story of the shepherds, it has to have been some time in the spring, not the dead of winter, because only in lambing season to shepherds stay out in the fields with the flocks rather than bringing them in to the pens at night. The early Christians didn't even celebrate Christmas. Easter, yes (but not under that name) -- Christmas, no.

Christmas was established by the Church to coopt the Greco-Roman holidays that honored the winter solstice and give people a treasured part of their year in Christian form. The birthday of Jesus was established by edict with that in mind. Later on, the same holiday was extended to coopt the Celtic and Germanic celebrations that also honored the winter solstice. The Yule tree comes from those latter religions.

It's been called a Christmas tree by Christians long enough to make me shrug my shoulders about it, though. If Christians want to adopt Pagan practices into their religion, fine with me. But since the practice was stolen from Pagans to begin with, really "holiday tree" is by this time more accurate. Today, it's a Yule tree when Pagans put it up, and a Christmas tree when Christians do.

You and I are probably not going to agree on much of anything concerning religion/religions.

However you are right on about this one. It amazes me often ..and it shouldnt ...how much ignorance is present among my fellow Christains about everything including Christianity.

Once I found out the history of Christmas I determined some 15 years ago to give it up..and did so cold turkey. My parents and relatives did not like it but thats the way it has to be.

Correct on the winter solstace...December 21/22.the shortest day of the year. The Sun God dies and three days in the grave is raised and reseructed in the newness of life...December 24/25.
This is nothing more than the conversion of a Pagan holiday and custom to make it look Christain and it is doing a good job.

The custom of those days was to bring gifts before a king ..gifts to a king when you visit..or gain a audience. We are not kings. We dont exchange gifts for this type of reason. Amazing how many Christians havent a clue.
I am often given to declare the amount of ignorance among my fellow Christains about most things...even and especially Christianity. They have no idea how much Paganism has been prively incorporated into what they think is Christianity. More Pagans know this truth than Christians. Amazing.


Alexander Hislop "The Two Babylons"

This book gives the reader the format and history behind many of the holidays we have today thinking they are holy to the God of the Bible including Halloween...all saints day. Lady Day..Christmas..and others ..Easter too.

Thanks for your post. I agree about the holidays.
Orangetom

Tom:

I'm going to suggest something here, and ask that you not reply to it until you've done some research on your own and thought about it.

As you note, Christmas was not part of the original Christianity of Jesus and the Apostles, but was added later on essentially as a political move, to win the allegiance of the people. But it is not the only major change in Christianity since the time of Jesus.

Between the Crucifixion and the rise of Constantinus as Emperor, two major branches of Christianity coexisted -- three if you count the Gnostics. One was localized in the Middle East, and headed up by the original Apostles, especially James, Jesus' brother. These people saw themselves as Jews, and Christianity as a sect of Judaism founded upon Jesus' teachings. They are commonly referred to as Jewish Christians.

The other, and larger, branch was more diverse. It arose from the ministry of Paul of Tarsus, was spread throughout the Roman Empire, and took many diverse forms. However, all of these had in common that they were more gentile and less Jewish than the other branch, rejecting Jewish law, and conceiving of themselves as a new religion, not a new sect of Judaism. They are commonly referred to as Pauline Christians.

One reason the Pauline Christians were so diverse is that they had no Bible as we know it. They did have the Old Testament, but most of them regarded it as outdated and not entirely relevant. And they had most of the books we now incorporate into the New Testament, along with many others of similar nature that we do not, but none of these was "canonical" as they are now held to be. Some Pauline Christians were hierarchical and authoritarian. Others were more egalitarian or even anarchistic. Some were doctrinaire, others were mystical. Some were militant activists against the Roman Empire, others were pacificistic.

When Constantine became Emperor, he legalized Christianity, which had been technically illegal up to that time, although the prohibition was enforced only sporadically. But he also sought to USE Christianity as a religious tool to bring greater order and harmony to the Empire -- for political purposes, in other words. To that end, he sought to create a single creed or doctrine which would replace the diversity of Christian beliefs that existed at that time. Rather than simply dictate such a doctrine (which he lacked the authority to do), he called an assembly of bishops to debate the matter and issue a creed and a canonical Scripture for Christians. This was the Council of Nicaea, the first of the Ecumenical Councils that would occur over the next several centuries.

Right off the bat, this meant that the new creed would be issued by the more authoritarian elements of Pauline Christianity, because only those churches had "bishops" at all. And Constantine required an authoritarian version of the faith, because of what he intended it for. The Jewish Christians were not represented at all, and neither were the more egalitarian forms of Pauline Christianity.

It is from this political purpose and political assembly that the New Testament (as it exists today), and the Nicene Creed came. These bishops in council were the ones who decided that the four Gospels in today's Bible, and none of the others in circulation then, would be considered authentic; that only the apostolic letters currently found in the New Testament, and none of the others in circulation, would be considered binding and authoritative; that only the Book of Revelations, and none of the other works of prophecy flying about at that time, would be considered true and valid. This was the beginning of what I call the Imperial Church, the Christian Church as an instrument of Roman Imperial authority.

Over the next few centuries, Christian successors to Constantine tightened this structure and made the Church more and more authoritarian. Dissident Christians were driven into exile or executed. Then Pagans and other non-Christians were subjected to persecutions.

After the western Empire fell, the Imperial Church split into two forms, the Roman Catholic Church in the west and the Orthodox Church in the east. All Protestant churches are derived from a rebellion against the Catholic Church and so take form and doctrine originally from the Catholic branch of the Imperial Church, however much they may disagree with its practices. Thus, almost all versions of Christianity today derive from this political movement begun by Constantine.

And so what I am going to suggest to you is this. If you want to get back to the Christianity that Jesus and the Apostles taught, there is a much more fundamental add-on than the adoption of some Pagan holidays. The Bible itself, as it is commonly thought of by Christians, i.e. as God's word and/or an infallible text, must also be set aside. And so must much of Christian theology and Christian doctrine, including the concepts of Heaven and Hell as usually thought of, and many of the strictures of Christian morality.

If you get right down to it, the core of the Christian faith is, I submit, these things and nothing else:

That God conjoined with Man in Jesus, showing the essential unity of the two and what Man can be when joined with God.

That Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead (either literally or metaphorically), showing that death is an illusion and not to be feared.

That the essence of good is Love -- love of All (i.e., of God), and love of each breath of the All (i.e., of one's neighbor).

Everything else is a later addition.

I am well aware of the pattern you describe in Rome and also In Constantinople. You are describing the differences in the Hellinic/Roman Christians and the Eastern Orthadox Christians.

I for one do not believe the Roman Church ever was or even today is Christian. All I have to do is look at the Obelisk sitting in Saint Peters Square surrounded by a avenue of columns. I immediatelly know what it is. I also know from what the term Obelisk derives.

This is a counterfit system made to look Christian. Even at times smell Christian. It fools many. Whats more ..many of the so called Protestant systems Derived from this.
YOu see Two Steps Foreward..I dont believe that Henry the Eighth was ever a protestant king. I believe he was a English Pope. He kept the same system..the same services, the same bibles, but the new pope was in London...with his religious back up system in Westminister. THis way he just didnt have to wait on Rome for the blessings he desired or dictated.
It was always about power among men...for men ..it is feudalism..which is also Paganism. The history of the Pagan nations is this exact same pattern. A religion and a priesthood...backing up the Kings or Emperors...through the religion. It is a nice fleecing arrangement. A few lived relatively well for those times off the backs of everyone else. When I say a few..I also mean the priesthood. This is the essence of paganism.
Where ever you went in the world..you saw this system as it is the dominant system in the world..still is in many parts. Most people under this system live at a substance level or lower while the royalty and priesthood live well off of their labors.

As to the Eastern orthadox system..it was the same..but not quite a dictatorial. Still fleecing .. We mostly hear about Rome.
What is not known about this is that there were always .people who did not adhere to either Rome or Constantinople..who lived first in North Africa...and other places in the mid east then in to Eastern Europe and eventually the high Alps of Europe and France. It was these people and these Churchs that the Inquesition sought to eradicate...in the Middle ages. We know of thier existance not by the records these people kept but by the records surviving of the Inquisitors. One thing about Pagans ...and feudal pagans..of Royalty...they do keep good records..as they are among the few in those times who could do alot of accurate reading and writing. Pagans ...in Royal systems like to keep records since this is necessary for a system of control by men through religion.
Among Christians for most of history ..thier records are kept by the Church and in thier Bibles..not in records of men. Only in recent times has this been done...to keep records through men and government/pagan institutions. This Grip on the Churchs by mens/pagan institutions/governments is continuing unabated today. This is primarily the fault of the Churchs today since they have ignorantly filed themselves and thier congregations as 501c charitable tax exempt institution complete with tax numbers...this is not seperation of church and state..it is filing the church as a state corporation. What a dumb bunch of churchs. Churchs should be tax immune..not tax exempt. A huge difference.

Nevertheless the pattern you describe is basically correct except that the Group under Paul of Tarsus became known as Paulicians...later they names of these decendents changed..to names like the Donatists, Bogavilles, Albigensins, Waldensens..after Peter Waldo and others...all decended after these North African churchs and winding up in the alps of Europe. Some of them have migrated here to the United States.
Out of this group of churchs in the high alps were to come people not liked by Rome..who are today..The Amish and the Mennonites...and even the Primitive Baptists. Many of them today ..are independent churchs ..spread through out this land. They do not often affiliate with Church Associations..since they do not want to be "hijacked" by the traditions and rules of men ..roman style. Even Protestant Roman Style.
These Churchs today know and teach this history of which you describe.

One of the problems for which many cannot see through is that in education and mens traditions ..it is often by default passed on that the Church of Rome represents all of Christianity by default since they get the most of the press and are most often represented in the books. Since they are presented as the largest group they win hands down among unthinking peoples. Many Pagans often use Rome as a example of all christianity when it never was..from the begining. Rome was always about power and the traditions of men..a counterfit. I will never believe that Rome is Christian. Its history is to much soiled by mens traditions to be Christian..it does however qualify by its practices and history as pagan. Rome just happens to be in heavy competition with other Pagans and even Christians...to the death.

Two Steps Foreward ...what is not known by most peoples concering Pagan Nations/Kingdoms is that they often fought wars against one another and the victors often assimilated and carried on the same religions but replaced key people in the priesthood so that the new authority was in place to keep dominance. This is precisely the pattern used by Rome. Both in Ancient times and under Constantine and his successors. If you cannot fight them openly ..infiltrate and take over ..or hijack privily. Allow if necessary all the pagan stuff they want ...but make it at least nominally look Christian after the Roman Pattern.

This pattern you describe and which I continue on in explanation is called the "Priest Kings".
This pattern is known by people who have not taken a huge bite out of what passes for education today both in public schools and many churchs.
These people have sought to educate themselves and have been in contact with teachers who can show them what is missing from much of our history. Even our religious history.

One more important thing to remember about Saul of Tarsus..or Paul as we know him. He was a pharisee ..and not just any pharisee...he was schooled in the inner schools..highly educated for his day. This was a man who knew the Olde Testament cover to cover. The also knew where the Hebrews ..just like the Roman Church were switching or hijacking the doctrine to make it look jewish when it was really about the feudal power they could gain through this manipulation. What the Hebrews of Pauls day were doing was substituting the Word of God with the traditions of men and especially the traditions of the pagan nations surrounding the nation of Israel. It was Pagan infiltration they were substituting and hijacking for the Word of God. This is clear and plain in the Olde Testament. It continues through the time of Jesus. This is why the Hebrew leadership killed so many of the prophets and eventually Jesus ..to cover up this pagansim in which they were so heavily involved.
This is also what is being attempted in covering up today..how much paganism is being passed off to a unawares public through the very government institutions of yesteryears...the very same pattern.
The public is to be "hijacked" across the board and Pagan institutions and tradition substituted for Christian institutions and practices. This is obvious when one learns to think outside the box which passes for thinking and education today. This too is a countefit.

Two Steps Foreward..I know the name of the counterfitter...as do many others.
This is the main reason history is such a poorly taught subject and also why the Bible will never be taught in public schools...everything else will be allowed..but not the Bible. Light must never be shown on this type of counterfit.
The attempt throughout history has always been to infiltrate and hijack the churchs and thier doctrine...to hijack the very Word itself by subtrifuge..by privy councils.by strategy.

I do not travel to the East ..up seven steps...but I know what it means..from ancient times to the present ..whether the Goddess religions or any of the other multitudes of pagan religions. I know the difference n the two lights. The Pagan traditions and customs all come from the same origins...the sun and the moon and the master. All feudal in nature...advancing by degrees in the traditions/wisdom of this world.

Thanks for your post and the history lesson,
Orangetom