US Military Dumps the 9mm

I've been retired since 99 but I believe that beretta did not actually win the competition to provide the US Military service pistol. H & K probably won, the Sig had to finish above beretta and if I'm not mistaken even the Czech 9mm from Bruno beat Beretta.
If I recall, Beretta got the contract primarily because they agreed to build the factory to produce them in the US.
The piece was supposed to deliver 35,000 rounds before retirement. I was told that when the Navy SEALS upped their range training to several days a week they were shooting out the 92's at about 3500 rnds, far short of the promised 35,000.
Our government would not pay the money for H & K, Sig or Styre Daimler Pugh even though we have many politicians (most of whom have only experienced actual combat in 90 minute segments, with pop corn, with obvious exceptions like John McCain, John Kerry and a few others), who claim to "support the troops" with everything except their own offspring and appropriate funding (not funelled through Haliburton).
The 45 is logoical especially since guys my age have a prejudice for it, with good reason. I hope the 45 will not be limited to the special teams and will find its way to the roll it has already served so well.
skep

Smoking Hole designs should meet the Tommy Guns

www.auto-ordnance.com...

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
I've owned a Cold Mark IV Series 70 (the last of the single-action Colts), and thought it was a bad gun. I got it with exactly seven rounds through the barrel, and found out that about every fifth shell ejected would fly back and hit me in the nose (which is not conducive to keeping a sight picture!); and I'd keyhole at least one round in a box of 50 cartridges. So I ended up getting the breech throated, and get the ejector port enlarged, get a new barrel bushing so the gun woul shoot in the general direction I was aiming it, and finally get a set of tritium sights. My "bargain" $300 Colt ended up costing me almost $600!

If the Army procures a .45 ACP gun equivalent to the "stock" MK IV Colt, I think they'll be getting as piece of junk.

I've never owned a Beretta #92, but I have owned the Glock 17 and the Ruger P-85, both of which I thing would be more cost-effective then the Colt.

For the regular grunt as opposed to the elite guys, I think a 9mm would be every bit as good and would have tremendous logistical advantages over the .45 ACP gun.

Sorry for the longer quote but short of like 5 different posts how else should it be addressed?

I almost agree with you completely

Take any colt gun made after 1900 and you need to double or triple its value in gun smithing work to make it any better than a rock- sorry to you other folks soooooo in love with the 1911- i'll prefer a rock- and my lil glock 17 (9mm) will out shoot it out of the box for hundreds less and still have rounds left over after the bad guys are laying on the ground "deader than a seven day stunk up skunk."

I am planning on trying out the glock 21 (45acp) very soon- but am concerned about accuracy issues and magizine capacity when using this round- no issues with the brand accuracy. there is great myth about the 45 being a stopper. yeah the 45 round is bigger and have more energy but the impact to the bad guys is the same as your recoil- most folks do not fall down after shooting a 45acp. (duh) 9mm has more penetration and that is where the show really is at in handguns (and the bedroom :lol ) especially when more and more of the bad guys are wearing body armour.

Logistic issues are a big concern for the military . . . . but . . . .how many rounds of sidearms are expected to acutally be expended in a conflict- common folks 9mm or 45acp I am not going to be using as a PIRMARY weapon- God help us if it comes to that.

The beretta 92fs IS a complete POS- i hand to qualify about a week ago with one for my job- and do so fairly frequently. I suspect it only won out on the contract because someone got a kick back- well and maybe for the lack of external safety on the Glock. i've been carrying a Glock HOT since 92 with zero problems but we still hear of morons hurting them selves with the beretta even with all of its safeties.


someone mentioned Taurous: YIKES! now there is a POS- it is a cheap Brazilian Knock-off of the Beretta guns- made with inferior steel too. If you do much shooting expect lots of wear and eventual failures. Check your bore for being smoother than a musket after 500-1000 rounds! yikes.

Originally posted by launchpad
Take any colt gun made after 1900 and you need to double or triple its value in gun smithing work to make it any better than a rock- sorry to you other folks soooooo in love with the 1911

Whilst not personally being a 1911 fan it's difficult to let such patent garbage go unchallenged. Colt firearms continue to be one of the finest quality weapons money can buy. The triggers alone on revolvers such as the Python and Anaconda (when Colt still made revolvers) were generally regarded as some of the best actions ever devised and their latest M4gery is one of the best AR based designs available today and a favorite with police forces around the nation.

most folks do not fall down after shooting a 45acp. (duh) 9mm has more penetration and that is where the show really is at in handguns (and the bedroom :lol ) especially when more and more of the bad guys are wearing body armour.

According to the NIJ standards most 9mm and .45ACP rounds fall into the same penetration category for bullet resistant vests, namely Level II-A:

Type II-A (Lower Velocity 357 Magnum; 9 mm)
This armor protects against 357 Magnum jacketed soft point bullets, with nominal masses of 10.2 g (158 gr) impacting at a velocity of 381 m (1250 ft) per second or less, and 9 mm full metal jacketed bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) impacting at a velocity of 332 m (1090 ft) per second or less. It also provides protection against threats such as 45 Auto., 38 Special +P and some other factory loads in caliber 357 Magnum and 9 mm, as well as the threats mentioned in section 2.1.

Higher velocity 9mm makes it into Level II, which is still barely any difference at all. In other words, if you are hoping to penetrate any kind of armor with a 9mm - think again, you really need a rifle, or you need to know and be able to execute a "failure to stop drill", caliber will not save you.

Logistic issues are a big concern for the military . . . . but . . . .how many rounds of sidearms are expected to acutally be expended in a conflict- common folks 9mm or 45acp I am not going to be using as a PIRMARY weapon- God help us if it comes to that.

Sidearms are going to be around for a long time yet because there are situations where nothing else will do, and that means you want a good one and since when have minor "logistical issues" trumped "lack of effectiveness". Sorry guys you can't have that new JDAM, we're all out of shelf space.

someone mentioned Taurous: YIKES! now there is a POS- it is a cheap Brazilian Knock-off of the Beretta guns- made with inferior steel too. If you do much shooting expect lots of wear and eventual failures. Check your bore for being smoother than a musket after 500-1000 rounds! yikes.

TAURUS offer a lifetime warranty with every firearm purchase and the Taurus PT 24/7 beat all other new handguns (including several new Glocks, SiGs and HKs) to win the NRA's 2005 Handgun of the Year award. The only gun they ever copied was the PT92/99 and here are some owners opinions on the guns longevity:

groups.msn.com...

Bottom line, Taurus may not be a first line manufacturer, that's why they are cheaper, but there's nothing wrong with their guns.

The bottom line here is that the grunts are going to get the pistol they have always wanted, while armchair warriors will continue to tell them that 9x19mm is all they really need. I know whose opinion I respect more.

I own three Tarus revolvers. I am not enamoured of their 9mm semi automatic though I understand it is a knockoff of the Beretta.
My Tarus revolvers are two .357/.38 six shot revolvers. One in stainless steel vent rib..four inch barrel. This one I often carry concealed. I also own a six inch one in blued steel..this one I keep in my truck.
I also own a .45ACP revolver..five shot target pistol. The Tarus Tracker series. Very accurate this pistol. I shoot this one alot at the range. Also very nice trigger pull. Six inch barrel vent rib with muzzle brake. Very nice shooting gun. I carried it concealed with me in Wally World this evening. Eventually I plan to get the four inch vent rib .45ACP Tracker.
Dont misunderstand me ...I also have a Colt Government .45ACP which I also carry concealed. I like it too. I am just more of a wheel gun person.

Tarus offers good value for the money ..which is why I like them. I have put about 3000 rounds through my .357 blued steel vent rib ..no problems.


Thanks,
Orangetom

I forgot to add in my last post...I too know whose opinion I respect more ..not the guy back shining a seat with their backside but the person with their backside out on the line. Amen.

Orangetom

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
The bottom line here is that the grunts are going to get the pistol they have always wanted, while armchair warriors will continue to tell them that 9x19mm is all they really need. I know whose opinion I respect more.

9x19 IS all I ever needed, the same goes for any of my mates who have had to use pistols in the 2 way gallery range. A pistol is not a good man-stopper by any means, and the choice between .45ACP and 9mm is fairly moot when you consider the relatively small difference in so-called stopping power. With all pistols shot placement is the most important consideration, and the choice of calibre is an individual thing.

Anything from 9mm upwards will be useful enough in a pistol fight. The 9mm will kill, as will the .45ACP, if the pistol is used properly i.e. fired accurately and within its' effective range. Penetration etc is all well and good, but a bullet kills you by using commuted energy through tissue adjacent to the bullets path through the body. A fast 9mm or a slower heavier .45 both cause a lot of organ/tissue damage as they penetrate the body, but no where near as much as a rifle round.

Lesson - don't run out of rifle rounds, and if you do, anything over 9mm will do the business if you shoot accurately.

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T

Originally posted by launchpad
Take any colt gun made after 1900 and you need to double or triple its value in gun smithing work to make it any better than a rock- sorry to you other folks soooooo in love with the 1911

Whilst not personally being a 1911 fan it's difficult to let such patent garbage go unchallenged. Colt firearms continue to be one of the finest quality weapons money can buy. The triggers alone on revolvers such as the Python and Anaconda (when Colt still made revolvers) were generally regarded as some of the best actions ever devised and their latest M4gery is one of the best AR based designs available today and a favorite with police forces around the nation.

You know what- I am sticking to above statement: Colt or just about ANY of the other 1911 clones out there do not function reliably out of the box - various issues from polishing the lips on magazines to polishing the feed ramp- to a complete trigger rework, etc, etc and even more etcs. Sorry, when I purchase a firearm I want it complete and able to function- this is not a model car folks and the whole 1911 gig is a potential life ender for the "weekend warrior" or person using concealed carry. I didn't throw down $500 to a grand plus for a KIT! God help us if these make it through to the grunts and they actually need them. All else aside the Beretta 92FS at least still lobbed lead down range.

Any of the special ops folks get to choose their guns- and usually they got the time and money (or their armourer does) to have what ever POS out of the box worked and re worked until it does function properly more often than not.

WHY do I know these things: Well, I HAVE fired about everything out there, own several myself and worked on many of the 1911 and clones mentioned- for over 15 years now. Many of my gun toting friends also own one variant or another of the clones from top of the line down to the very bottom and they will agree with me to most every extent. Many have become quite disenfranchised with the various makes once the failures started popping up and the need for gunsmithing work became apparent. If it don't work at the range consistently would I carry one??? Not on your life.

I paid $409 way back in the early 90's for my first Glock 17 with fixed sights. Since that time I have fired around 20,000 rounds through that particular gun and acquired many more Glocks that have yet to see the same level of use but all performed just as well out of the box! How many failures have I suffered with my Glocks??? Personally, none. I have been witness to three due to limp wrists (female shooting each time) and one due to a moron having never fired a semi auto before and the slide breaking his offhand thumb. (upon which he threw my gun- but it still has yet to malfunction in my hands)

What does a 1911 or clone go for? A tade more than $400 even back then. Add ramp polishing, magazine lip work for 3 magazines, add in some trigger work- geeze we are already at nearly at twice the value of the gun. Like I said I do not want a "kit"

www.apwcogan.com...

Let's see: worked on em, own em, have my own range, carried various guns for work . . . . yeah. If that's still arm chair for you- so be it- I guess the shoe fits.

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T

most folks do not fall down after shooting a 45acp. (duh) 9mm has more penetration and that is where the show really is at in handguns (and the bedroom :lol ) especially when more and more of the bad guys are wearing body armour.

According to the NIJ standards most 9mm and .45ACP rounds fall into the same penetration category for bullet resistant vests, namely Level II-A:

Type II-A (Lower Velocity 357 Magnum; 9 mm)
This armor protects against 357 Magnum jacketed soft point bullets, with nominal masses of 10.2 g (158 gr) impacting at a velocity of 381 m (1250 ft) per second or less, and 9 mm full metal jacketed bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) impacting at a velocity of 332 m (1090 ft) per second or less. It also provides protection against threats such as 45 Auto., 38 Special +P and some other factory loads in caliber 357 Magnum and 9 mm, as well as the threats mentioned in section 2.1.

Higher velocity 9mm makes it into Level II, which is still barely any difference at all. In other words, if you are hoping to penetrate any kind of armor with a 9mm - think again, you really need a rifle, or you need to know and be able to execute a "failure to stop drill", caliber will not save you.

. . . . and you compared this to the 45 acp HOW??? you know why the "also protects against" was thrown in there- right???
because the 45 is on the bottom of the list (using +P) for that threat level.


9mm +p makes it quite easily into the II level-and even the IIIA level a 45 needs a whole lot of specials to do so. sicne you seem to want to make me look simple here is a "simple" source:

en.wikipedia.org...


Like i said: better penetration. All relative anyway.

JFY: more of a silly arguement:Most 9mms have more shots and CHANCES for penetration. Lets see: 1911 with 7 rounds 45 acp. vs Glock 17 and 17 rounds 9mm. How much energy is in 2 9mm rounds? (not that it really matters) but there will still be rounds left over.

not that any of this really matters: the gun makers offering the best rewards to the right committee in Washington will get the contract.

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T

Logistic issues are a big concern for the military . . . . but . . . .how many rounds of sidearms are expected to acutally be expended in a conflict- common folks 9mm or 45acp I am not going to be using as a PIRMARY weapon- God help us if it comes to that.

Sidearms are going to be around for a long time yet because there are situations where nothing else will do, and that means you want a good one and since when have minor "logistical issues" trumped "lack of effectiveness". Sorry guys you can't have that new JDAM, we're all out of shelf space.

Oops someone missed the boat entirely on what I was saying:

Basically, changing calipers is not enough of a reason to declare logistic issues (as mentioned by someone on page one) because we are not going to be expending huge amounts of this round in any battle theater

some folks just want to argue anything- even when it is the SAME thing.

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T

someone mentioned Taurous: YIKES! now there is a POS- it is a cheap Brazilian Knock-off of the Beretta guns- made with inferior steel too. If you do much shooting expect lots of wear and eventual failures. Check your bore for being smoother than a musket after 500-1000 rounds! yikes.

TAURUS offer a lifetime warranty with every firearm purchase and the Taurus PT 24/7 beat all other new handguns (including several new Glocks, SiGs and HKs) to win the NRA's 2005 Handgun of the Year award. The only gun they ever copied was the PT92/99 and here are some owners opinions on the guns longevity:

groups.msn.com...

Bottom line, Taurus may not be a first line manufacturer, that's why they are cheaper, but there's nothing wrong with their guns.

The bottom line here is that the grunts are going to get the pistol they have always wanted, while armchair warriors will continue to tell them that 9x19mm is all they really need. I know whose opinion I respect more.

whew- i hope this is the last of that can o worms!

Lifetime war-un-T huh? is that like the one offered for Harbor Freight Tools? the one where the return postage and fees to the plant cost more than the item in question and you may never here a reply back :lol ok if you say so.

I have first hand withnessed the problems.

Only copied the Beretta? Man do some more research- a LOT more.

I bought the wife for her birthday a 1956 S&W police issue 38 special- it came from the LA SWAT amoury- never fired- still in box (imagine that!- lost on a shelf there for all those years). My buddy has a Taurus that is a carbon copy of it- only basically a smooth bore now after some casual weekend shooting. ok, ok not fair to compare to S&W fo longevity since that particular gun still has yet to be fired- but a copy- you bet ya.

Another buddy also has a 357 identical to the S&W 357. Again a smooth bore - he is very unhappy with the longivity of the gun- oh sure it still shoots- no malfunctions (in a wheel gun??? why are we talking malfunctions) but he can hardly get it to hit the broad side of a barn on bench rest. Again this gun has seen no real significant amounts of shooting.

These are just two of numerous BAD examples of quality control from Taurous. Even G&A magazine (and numerous others) made pretty strong statements in the 90's about exactly what i have said herein. look up and of the torture tests comparing the 9mm's from the time. yikes- exactly.

I guess it all comes down to what you want the gun for. I want mine to shoot- and shoot a lot. then i want to carry it and KNOW i can count on it. i just have not gotten a single warm fuzzy from Taurous.

i guess being there and doing that still makes me an armchair commando. say la vee.

in my opinion its a goo d opinion to dump the 9 mm its horrible against kevlar a 5.6 or 5.7 7.62 and magnum rounds are much better

When in a dangerous situation (I'm a forensic medicine doctor who often evaluates LIVE bad-asses of various types), its simple, I have reviewed the ballistics and gel and human flesh terminal performance data, both statistically and personally, and I carry a 8 3/8 inch Smith and Wesson .500 Magnum, with a 4 inch Smith 500 as a back up, both loaded with 440 grain corbon laser hardened lead bullets. Anything less is inadequate. Next to these, both 9 and 45 are girlyguns.

The bigger the better, or so all my nurses tell me.
MD from TN

PS; working in ERs, I've seen all kinds of bullet wounds; I see no difference- medically- between 9mm, 40, and 45 (I am aware of the ballistic data); 357 yielded worse wounds than all the above; with 44 mag the patient was almost always DOA. Never saw a live patient come in shot with a DE .50 AE, only dead one's torn up badly. I stopped working ERs before the SMith 500 came out, but I can imagine.

.500 S&W is for ego boosting only, the recoil is so strong that most GOOD shooters can only fire single shots, and a second one, if needed, is really slow to fire...
In addition the guns and ammo are large, bulky and heavy, and the is no way i'd carry one around... plus they come only with 6 rnd capacity... at least in .357 revolvers you get 8

.500 SW is ok for home/personal defence for a experienced and relative large shooters, but utterly useless crap for military...

Originally posted by doctorwork
I carry a 8 3/8 inch Smith and Wesson .500 Magnum, with a 4 inch Smith 500 as a back up, both loaded with 440 grain corbon laser hardened lead bullets. Anything less is inadequate. Next to these, both 9 and 45 are girlyguns.

The bigger the better, or so all my nurses tell me.
MD from TN

Yes, and next to .50BMG the .500 S&W is a wimpy round, but this doesn't make it a more viable choice. In military terms, the 9mm or .45 are more realistic. The ability to engage multiple targets rapidly is much more important than being able to drop one target with one round, which is all you would be able to do with a .500 as the recoil is too much to allow rapid follow up shots.

Plus, I don't think that a 8 3/8" revolver is particularly practical, do you? I take it you carry this weapon in a car, as it's a poor choice for a carry weapon. It would be slow to draw, a pain to conceal and a bugger control. You would also need to ensure you're wearing your glasses to index the front sight rapidly!

In the last year or so the military has bought new M9s for the Air Force and USMC (the M9A1 - a M9 w frame rail). They have contracted for up to 70,000 more M9s w up to 14 million more mags. Funny way to dump the 9, but it could still happen.

As of 10 Mar 06 the JCP no longer exists. The solicitation has been modified to the CP (Combat Pistol).

The CP will not be for everybody, just SOF (special operations forces).

The max quantity has been reduced from 645,000 to 50,000.

Still a .45 ACP, still a commercially available NDI (non developmental item).

Specs still call for DA/SA, DAO, or SFA (striker fired action). The original specs for the SOF CP (before it merged w the Army's Future Handgun System/FHS to become the JCP) allowed SAO (single action only) pistols like 1911s to compete, but so far does not look like they are back in the game.

The Army's FHS may be back in one form or another in the future.

Some mistakes above... the only pistols in the final M9 trials were the Beretta 92F, SIG P226, S&W M459, HK P7M13, and Walther P88. The S&W, HK, and Walther failed some tests and were eliminated. The Beretta and SIG were both judged acceptable. The Beretta was actually considered the more durable of the two since none of them broke during testing, and two of the SIGs cracked frames between 5,000 and 7,000 rounds (only had to make it to 5,000 to pass). Kinda funny considering what happened later? SIG had the initial low bid and was the apparent winner, but after contract modifications adding more spare parts and mags, Beretta won the final bid w a lower total package price (the SIG actually cost less per pistol). The first year of the contract the pistols were made and assembled in Italy, the second year made there and assembled here, the rest made and assembled here.

The only part w a contract specified service life was the frame, and it was for just 5,000 rounds (oops?). In the late 80s after you know what happened, commercial 92s and M9s tested by the military all broke slides from just under 5,000 rounds to just over 30,000 rounds. Frames were fine. By the time I retired in 98, the avg life of an M9 in testing was over 35,000 for the frames, over 75,000 rounds for the slide, and 17,500 for the locking block. Somebody fixed sumthin' that wasn't broken? M9s used in training at the local base had on avg over 30,000 rounds through them w/o any problems. Some folks saw lottsa problems, I never saw any...

I think my HK P2000 is wundebar. The new HK45/HK45C is basically a P2000 in 45 w a O-ring and modified rail. Just what the Army hinted it wanted in the FHS. So are the Beretta Px4 and FNP.

The Buy America Act will not prevent a foreign made pistol from getting the next contract. Beretta, SIG, FN, HK, and Glock all have or will have US production facilities. Need not go to to the lowest bidder either; can exercise the "best value" option. We did learn a little bit from last time.



[edit on 28-4-2006 by BrokenArrow]

Are you kidding me? It is obvious that you have nothing better to do if you are arguing such semantics. The .45 is a potent and stoic round. It is what operators want. H&K just happens to be working directly with boys down at FT Benning (for those uninformed, its the home of the US Army Infantry and where DoD decisions regarding weaponry and equipment are made). So 1+1=2. Who gives a crap about who knows more about nomenclatures and model numbers and which pistol begat which pistol. You guys are ruining the lure of this web site with such menial arguments. Get off the keyboard and go fishing or to the range and throw some rounds down range. RLTW!

P.S. I love H&K's products.

excerpt Broken Arrow, he seems to know what he is talking about.

Originally posted by ch1466
Never understood the obsession with shortguns since, particularly in a squad environment, "If you're all down to pistols, someone has made a BIG mistake...".

1. All pistols weigh in the range 2-2.5 lbs. From the Net, the 92FS is 2.1. The 1911 is 2.41.

2. An empty M16A2 is something like 8.2, with the sling it may be a bit more. Say 10lbs loaded. The M4 Carbine trades rails and adaptors and often the heavy tube-stock for barrel length so it's only about a pound better. SMGs trade weight for stability and capacity so they too tend to be a bit heavy. As I recall, the MP5 is 7.4lbs empty.

3. BUT. Where the excrement hits the rotational mechanism is shoulder locked firing accuracy and total rounds available vs. onboard. And here a Pistol plus three clips and a rig compatible with your web gear is going to run you about 6-8lbs. Which is the equivalent of FOUR, combat loaded, M16 clips. Each with 25 vs. 13-15 rounds typical of the pistol. Or a pair of in-house grenades. Or a triplet of MP5 mags with an honest 30rounds.

4. People say a pistol is faster to engage because of the way it is held but this is also not true since, _for the same accuracy_ you have to 'spot weld it' to your side and particularly from a cross draw under the opposed arm, this takes time. As does the rigid torso twist rather than shoulder flex needed for 'sudden' engagements. You may get one. But his friend is still going to nail your a$$ to a wall.

5. And if the target field is mixed or stood off, (something increasingly common now that /everyone/ is autofired) all the speed in the world does you no good because your shoot stance is exposed and you tend to spend more rounds (hence time) on a target which could just as readily be engaged with a single 3-round off the rifle and be done. Not because of lethality issues. But because _you are flat out missing_. Since each pistol recoil impulse is effectively it's own aimpoint interruption and all force is isolated through the relatively unsteady thumb-index U (articulated with each trigger pull), wrists (total muzzle lift and recoil aligned with the weakest-when-turned vertical hold axis) and flailing-in-both-axes elbows which ALWAYS 'turn out' when compared to the stance-locked shoulder muscle pad anchored to the collar bone.

6. Accuracy, particularly in today's underdeveloped labor-soft hands is further degraded by stagger stacking rounds into a fat and or tall grip. While ever larger slides and double action triggers furter mess with the shooters innate, rapid, ability to get good results from a _repetitive motion_ muscle memory.

7. This only leaves concealability which is one of the /worst/ 'covert' elements of military acknowledged combat status since it effects the mindset going into battle (preparation, supporting fires, multiaxis attacks and coordinated C2) which is 90% more _useful_ to even a command action than any 'secondary' weapon carriage is liable to be. Not least because our uniformed SOF (non-black) are never commited to that kind of action outside of war anyway. And no smart SOFie is going to go walkabout in poor district carrying a slick government issued toy anyway. Since being discovered with such a weapon under _casual_ search violates discretion anyway.

CONCLUSION:
The reality is that a pistol is an officers strutting weapon from back in the days when a crop was lighter than a sword and beating your men to encourage them into a battle you DID NOT 'lead' was standard procedure and the men were resentful enough (and you far enough out in the boonies) that you couldn't always trust to conventional discipline. It is not a weapon for the modern battlefield dominated by autofire weapons and as such, buying half a million of them is less than worthless because the security/policing mission is one which could actually be better off contracted out anyway.

Shoot More in the first ten seconds. Carry more for the next 5 minutes. Back this up with explosive or obscurrent and DD devices to make the entry happen. And RUN when the fight is over or you need to force the engagement by pursuit. None of which is conducive to carrying dead weight of a pistol you don't need or (have time to) use.


KPl.


P.S. SOF also have a habit of using illegal rounds, especially on their semi-covert missions so the notion that a .45 is going to do more first round knockdown damage than a 9mm Hollowpoint or Poison bullet is absurd. While a 5.56mm round that hits the leg or the pelvic girdle (which is common when firing from a low stance or prone) is going to shatter the bone like glass and result in an /instantly/ debilitating wound.

Ironicially, especially for FIBUA conditioned combat, the place to look for more efficiency in a pistol caliber is on rifles. Where the shorter case is subject to further telescopiing that in turn leads to lower spring loads and narrower clip chord. Which makes for more rounds loaded on top of the gun rather than through a stupid well. And this then leads to WEIGHT of fire improvements (if not the first then the tenth), coupled to longgun sighting radius and other _accuracy_ (sleaving the receiver to slide on one recoil-absorption recoil cylinder) based increases in utility within the same or slightly greater (1,250 to 1,600fps) muzzle velocities.

Which doesn't change the fact that, where a .22LR round is lethal at a miles distance and thus /any/ projectile weapon is too dangerous to willingly talk about 'taking hits' of any kind. Pistols are still just toys in any real combat environment.

Veritas, ch1466 is what is produced when you mate a young lad with no world experience and a penchant for field manuals, with an essay writing programme. I'm sure that I'm not alone in ignoring his rather boring replies.