J. Edgar Hoover mentions Roswell Disc

A FOIA declassified document

Title: Memorandum for Mr. Ladd
To: Mr. Ladd
Authors: Clyde Tolson FBI
Date: July 10, 1947
Length: 1 page.
Classification: Unknown
CC: None


Full typed text

Mr. (name blacked out) also discussed this matter with Colonel L.R. Forney of MID (Military Intelligence Division). Colonel Forney indicated that it is his attitude that inasmuch as it has been established that the flying disks are not the result of any Army or Navy experiments, the matter is of interest to the FBI. He stated that he was of the opinion that the Bureau, if at all possible, should accede to General Schulgen's request.

SWR:AJB (initialed here)

ADDENDUM

I would recommend that we advise the Army that the Bureau does not believe it should go into these investigations, it being noted that a great bulk of those alleged discs reported found have been pranks. It is not believed that the Bureau would accomplish anything by going into these investigations

DML (Special Agent Ladd- signed below typed initials)

(Clyde Tolson)
(J. Edgar Hoover)

At the bottom of this document is a Hand written note by J. Edgar Hoover's. It reads

I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance in the LA case the Army grabbed it & would not let us have it for cursory examination.

I think this is just amazing. He is pretty much saying very clearly the Army recovered a disc and ran with it and denied even the FBI access to it.

He mentions the LA case was he talking about (Los Alamos?) Los Alamos National Laboratory est. 1943 Birth Place of the Atomic bomb. Might not be a bad place to bring a recovered disc back in 1947.

I just found out about this because of a show in the Sci-fi channel "Out of the Blue". They gave a link to the direct FOIA site but I didnt have a pen but I tracked down a copy. Do alot of people know of this? Im just shocked I thinks its quite amazing.

link



[edit on 28-11-2005 by ShadowXIX]

Excellent find.

It really gives food for thought. Who knew what? I am sure that the information is much more compartmentalized today than it was 50 years ago.

Hand written note by J. Edgar Hoover

Is there any way to verify that this notation was present on the document when it was released? I'd like to see a copy of that direct from the government files. I'm not doubting you, I just want to know whether that is Hoover's own writing and comment.

If this is authentic, then how do the debunkers explain a crashed disk recovered by the Army in "La" (I assume that means Los Angeles, which makes me wonder what actually happened after the battle over LA).

Originally posted by Centrist

Is there any way to verify that this notation was present on the document when it was released? I'd like to see a copy of that direct from the government files. I'm not doubting you, I just want to know whether that is Hoover's own writing and comment.

On the Sci-fi show they gave a direct link to the goverment site for the transcript. It was Foia.fbi.gov/(something) I couldnt remember that part. Im looking for it on a offical goverment sight though

Originally posted by Centrist
If this is authentic, then how do the debunkers explain a crashed disk recovered by the Army in "La" (I assume that means Los Angeles, which makes me wonder what actually happened after the battle over LA).

I didnt even think about the LA case as the infamous " Battle of Los Angeles " the Army did fire some 2,000 rounds of 12 pound, high explosive shells at UFOs. Perhaps they managed to hit one and bring it down.

Good job on bringing that up

I cant believe I found it this fast but here it is on the FBI goverment site. Man the UFO section is big 1600 pages. Still cant believe I found it on the first try

Page 45 of 69 with the hand written part
foia.fbi.gov...


Heres all the files I was looking through
foia.fbi.gov...

[edit on 28-11-2005 by ShadowXIX]

Great stuff shadow.

I'm amazed that the foia allowed this document released without the customary blacked out text and hand written note. Must have slipped thru a crack in their usually tight censor. If authentic, this should blow the debunkers right out of the water.

Originally posted by whaaa
Great stuff shadow.

I'm amazed that the foia allowed this document released without the customary blacked out text and hand written note. Must have slipped thru a crack in their usually tight censor. If authentic, this should blow the debunkers right out of the water.

I don't really see anything worth censoring in there. Cool find, though. The Battle of L.A. thing has intrigued me for awhile, but I'm quite skeptical.



Zip

I just noticed more of the document has been blacked out from the version I posted in my first post. The FBI site one has the name Colonel L.R. Forney of MID blacked out

Though I have to say whoever blacked out MID in the FBI document did a bad job and you can still see it says MID

Excellent work. We have the "Battle of LA" photo and a document bearing J. Edgar Hoover's handwritten note stating that the Army "grabbed" a disk in LA and wouldn't share it with the FBI for cursory inspection.

A few other facts that interest me are...

-- By the time the LA incident occured, Hoover was the all-powerful ruler over the FBI, having been entrenched there for nearly 20 years at the time (he took over in 1924). He would have had knowledge and access of unparalled scope, even of events that took place outside the specific realm of the FBI. As such, there's no doubt that if something took place in L.A., he would have known about it (aside from the fact that an investigation on U.S. soil is wholly within the provine of the FBI).

-- It was the U.S. Army on the scene during the battle of LA and it's the U.S. Army that Hoover claims withheld a disk from the FBI in "La".

Few questions:

1. Is there really anything special about this document as opposed to other documents?
a. Dont other official legit documents also mention UFO investigations without debunking conclusions?
b. Dont a few other "legit" documents also say that UFOs are not something made by the US just like it is stated in this document?

2. This document says UFOs are not from the army or Navy, but what about the airforce? Was the airforce considered to be apart of the army or Navy at this time?

1 -- There's nothing special about the document, except for (a) it's source is the FBI, so it's authenticity is very, very likely and (b) the Director of the FBI states that the Army recovered a disk in "La". If you read this article it states:

This accords well with FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover’s hand-written notes that appear at the foot of a 10 July 1947 FBI document pertaining to UFOs, in which Hoover writes: “…we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance in the La [Los Alamos?] case the Army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination.”

which doesn't really place the memo in context until you consider that Hoover probably didn't mean Los Alamos. He probably meant the Battle over Los Angeles. In that light, the memo makes sense -- it suggests that the Army did shoot something down that night (like the "disc" in the picture) and didn't share with the FBI... and it appears to have irritated Hoover.

2. Yes, other documents are legit, but I'm not suggesting that this document is the answer to all that much -- just that it suggests a possible connection between the Los Angeles incident, the Army, and the FBI's knowledge of something happening with regard to a disk.

3. The Air Force was not separated out of the Army (it was the US Army Air Force --- USAAF) until late 1947/early 1948. Also, the L.A. incident is alleged to have occured in 1942 -- pre Air Force as well.

I also find this document very interesting because it was originally wirrten on July 10, 1947. The press release stating that a disk had been recovered in Roswell occured on July 8, 1947. Hoover's comments were dated July 15th. All just facts that I'm not sure how much to make of... but they seems to bounce around together quite well.

My only caveat with respect to Roswell is that even if nothing was actually recovered there, the spectre of such an occurance may have caused the typical, federal government knee-jerk reaction to start sending around memos on how to deal with such an occurance such as a crashed UFO.

From Wikipedia:

“The United States Air Force (USAF) is the aviation branch of the United States armed forces. The USAF was formed as a separate branch of the military on September 18, 1947. Previously, the Army was responsible for non-naval military aviation under the US Army Air Forces”

en.wikipedia.org...

The forum entitled “Government and Military Reading on UFOs” has some great links to a variety of documents, including the FOIA link provided here… could’ve saved yourself the trouble of searching for it, but that’s half the fun, right? *grins*

I’ve read through most of the docs released by the FBI, interesting stuff, to say the least.

However, as far as the debunkers go, they will (probably) tell you that any and all references to UFOs in Government/Military declassified documents is really just an elaborate disinformation scheme designed to confuse and mislead people/spies and to cover up or hide various “black ops” or “black budget” (or whatever the super secret buzz word of the day is) programs.

I Want to believe, but I can find nothing that will stand up against the arguments of the debunkers within the mountains of declassified docs I’ve read through…

Makes for some good reading though.

rock on
twj

Something else that occured to me is that the word "discs" is plural, meaning more than one. And it says "For instance in the case of LA", meaning another disc was recovered at some other incident. LA could also mean Louisiana, but I've never heard of an incident there. Good find.

Originally posted by Centrist


I also find this document very interesting because it was originally wirrten on July 10, 1947. The press release stating that a disk had been recovered in Roswell occured on July 8, 1947. Hoover's comments were dated July 15th. All just facts that I'm not sure how much to make of... but they seems to bounce around together quite well.

Yeah I did take notice of the date. This hand written part is also was well after the the US changed its story to weather balloon from recovered disc. The FBI knew they were not "a result of any Army or Navy experiments" So no MOGUL or any other secret test and that really only leaves a aircraft from a Foreign nation or a real deal UFO.


The way Im reading it is Hoover is talking about two different recovered discs. One just recovered the date seems to suggest (Roswell) and that he wants access to this one. Then he cites a example were the Army had gotten its hands on a disc in the past "LA Case" and denied the FBI access

I have to say I feel alittle dumb for not making the Battle over Los Angeles connection. I dont know why I was thinking Los Alamos

Originally posted by Hal9000
Something else that occured to me is that the word "discs" is plural, meaning more than one. And it says "For instance in the case of LA", meaning another disc was recovered at some other incident. LA could also mean Louisiana, but I've never heard of an incident there. Good find.

Actually, it was Louisiana. Listen to William Cooper's symposium speech. He gives the locations of all recovered downed craft, none of which were Los Angeles, however, he did mention Louisiana.

A reported Louisiana UFO crash? I have to say you peaked my interest. I never heard of any such event.

When is it claimed to have occured?

Getting back to the Battle of LA for a second I found at least one site that claimed something crashed shortly after that event in that same region.

along with investigation of two UFO crashes that occurred in February 1942, one in the mountains of San Bernardino, California, and the other just off the Southern California coast

link

February 1942? Isnt that the exact same time the Battle of LA took place? San Bernadino is pretty close to LA aswell.

I cant say how valid these claims are I havent read the book or anything. Infact this is really the first time Im looking into reported crashes that predate Roswell.

Someone is going to get into bother for this slip.
Reading through some other reports of UFO's being tracked by radar at 2400 miles an hour in 1957 and radars being 'jammed' make this a good source of government UFO info. As opposed to witness accounts. Why have the NEWS people not picked up on this slip up? I wonder. Or are they saying that J edgar was relating to info he had heard second hand about crashes or hearsay? I can believe alot about that guy but he knew what was going on in his own country!!

Voting well above on this one.

Actually, it was Louisiana. Listen to William Cooper's symposium speech. He gives the locations of all recovered downed craft, none of which were Los Angeles, however, he did mention Louisiana.

Could you give a link to the transcript of some of this. I'd like to see if there are some dates or something that could be cross-referenced against the FOIA documents to see if there is any relevant activity during the period in question. If we can find some secondary proof of what "La" meant in Hoover's note, then perhaps we can head down the right avenue of investigation.

Originally posted by StarChild
Actually, it was Louisiana. Listen to William Cooper's symposium speech. He gives the locations of all recovered downed craft, none of which were Los Angeles, however, he did mention Louisiana.

This may be a hair-splitter, but I'd agree that Hoover's [maybe] handwritten addition to Tolson's note probably refers to Louisiana. If you look at it, it's written as 'La.' and not LA. La. was the common abbreviation for Louisiana at the time of this note's alleged creation.

Good stuff.

Very nice find, great job