What if Masonry is just the scape goat?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Let's get this straight, Axe, I am not wrong.

About me, you most certainly are wrong. I can't speak for anyone else.

You might be wrong if you think it all revolves around you, but that is not the case. So please, do not tell me what is wrong when I've been watching this mess for quite some time, so don't tell me otherwise.

I've been in the middle of it for a long time myself... but you know that.

Furthermore, don't tell me it hasn't been attempted to turn this into a Masonic sitting room. Again, I know better.

Whatever you say, Thomas.

As far as what we do with this forum, we will do with it as we see fit. We will continue to monitor and moderate as we feel it is necessary for this CONSPIRACY forum.

Well, bully for you!

As far as my theory, it is just as good as the theories that my Masonic friends are evil and out to get me. If they are out to get me, they sure are doing it in a strange way, I'll say. This being said, I am willing to look at other ideaas, but I would like it to make some sort of sense and have some bit of evidence. Still I reserve the right to keep my opinion as is. I expect you to do the same.

My opinion is based on my own research and experience, as is yours... so why would they change? I have looked at every angle I can see, and I still can't understand why people say the things they do, save out of complete and total ignorance of what Masonry is or is not.

Are Masons the scapegoat? Absolutely. For who or what? Around here it seems to be everything! Hell, I've heard someone say on this board that Masons triggered the Tsunami!! WTF?! We are responsible for the push on Global government, microchipping people, incubating reptilians, every person in power in the world that does anything wrong or controversial is a Mason, we curse people, blow up their lavatories, perform Satanic Ritual Abuse, raise goats for nefarious purposes, and make annual lodge-sponsored trips to club baby seals. Most of this and tons more I have heard from people, mostly on this site. Be it Masons, Illuminati, Zionists, (insert scapegoat here), or whoever, people are much quicker to blame others for the problems facing this world than to get off their asses and do anything about it themselves. Too busy loading the bong, I guess. Everybody wants someone to blame for why their life sucks, and why they are so oppressed, or whatever. It's sickening. And after joining the group in question and actually seeing for myself what really goes on, and what it's really about, it really makes me even sadder for those people.

It's ridiculous, and it seems as though you would rather us sit back and let ignorant people discuss their ignorance of Masonry in complete and blissful ignorance, rather than shed some light on the subject.

[edit on 12/4/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Leveller
So what you are saying is that the people who are actually part of the supposed conspiracy should have no voice.

Not sure why you are having difficulty understanding my comments but out of pure redundancy let me say it again.

ATS is not a masonic lodge and the SS forum isn't here to give you and your fellow masons a place to "defend the craft". This isn't a battleground for some masonic crusade to defend the faith. This forum is here to give members a place to talk about conspiracies as they relate to Secret Societies.

Originally posted by kinglizard
ATS is not a masonic lodge and the SS forum isn't here to give you and your fellow masons a place to "defend the craft". This isn't a battleground for some masonic crusade to defend the faith. This forum is here to give members a place to talk about conspiracies as they relate to Secret Societies.

How does that exclude "defending the Craft" from lies and mistruths? Is that not talking about conspiracies? Or is it merely not talking about conspiracies in the context you would like?

So basically what you seem to be saying is that if you have a conspiracy to promote, feel free. If you want to defend the Craft from the mistruths and inaccuracies of said conspiracy, STFU. Is this accurate?

Originally posted by The Axeman
How does that exclude "defending the Craft" from lies and mistruths? Is that not talking about conspiracies? Or is it merely not talking about conspiracies in the context you would like?

So basically what you seem to be saying is that if you have a conspiracy to promote, feel free. If you want to defend the Craft from the mistruths and inaccuracies of said conspiracy, STFU. Is this accurate?

Agreed Axe, its a difficult problem. I guess the moderating staff will need to moderate the forum using their best judgement. When a staff member sees dog piling on a member, attempted suppression of a conspiracy related idea as it relates to secret societies or a masonic gathering to discuss mundane aspects of their craft they will take appropriate action in line with the wishes of the owners of ATS.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Not sure why you are having difficulty understanding my comments but out of pure redundancy let me say it again.

ATS is not a masonic lodge and the SS forum isn't here to give you and your fellow masons a place to "defend the craft". This isn't a battleground for some masonic crusade to defend the faith. This forum is here to give members a place to talk about conspiracies as they relate to Secret Societies.

And maybe you don't understand my reply - or don't want to.

When I post here, I am first and foremost an ATSer. I just happen to be an ATSer who is a Freemason.

I've already refuted the rest of what you have said in your statement above.

As for "dogpiling"? I don't see something wrong with wailing on a guy who calls others liars when he himself can be proven to be a fraud - not by researching, not by wordplay - but by looking at his own words.
Why didn't you do your job and penalise the guy for posting blatant lies? Why make him a martyr?

Is the new motto for ATS - Promote Ignorance?

I ask you again. Have you even bothered reading this thread?

[edit on 4-12-2005 by Leveller]

OK, one last time. Please take this to u2u and let the topic continue.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Agreed Axe, its a difficult problem. I guess the moderating staff will need to moderate the forum using their best judgement. When a staff member sees dog piling on a member, attempted suppression of a conspiracy related idea as it relates to secret societies or a masonic gathering to discuss mundane aspects of their craft they will take appropriate action in line with the wishes of the owners of ATS.

But that's what they always have done, and the board has run smoothly all this time, even before the "No glad-handing" ( ) posts came around.

This has never been a problem before, why is it now? For Brethren who may only know each other because of and through ATS, we can't say "Hey I got my Fellowcraft Degree," which is harmless, and also gives an opportunity for those interested or misled about the Fraternity to ask questions and perhaps leave a little more knowledgeable than when they came. See, that's the problem with having the main focus of a conspiracy forum be a group with virtually no real conspiracy value at all. When the conspiracies are debunked, there is no more need for discussion, and no more takes place beyond the flaming and personal jabs.

I just don't see why this is such a big deal all of a sudden when it never has been in the past.

Don't get me wrong, I see where you are coming from, and Thomas and I have discussed it at length. But a topic forum like this must have balance, IMO, and by limiting or restricting the content of the discussions to include things that in no way violate the T&Cs of the board, you are (conciously or not) upsetting the balance; the recent turbulance is evidence enough of that to me.

I understand what is acceptable and what is not, and I know where you want to go with this line of adminisration. But honestly I think admin is shooting themselves in the foot by getting all uptight about something that seems to me to be a very small and inconsequential thing.

Sorry, topic. Masons = Scapegoats? Yes, I believe so.

-----------------------------------

Edit to add:

Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by The Axeman
If I didn't have the SS forum at ATS in which to defend the Craft,

You just capsulized the problem. ATS is not a masonic lodge and the SS forum isn't here to give you and your fellow masons a place to "defend the craft". This isn't a battleground for some masonic crusade to defend the faith. This forum is here to give members a place to talk about conspiracies as they relate to Secret Societies.

That was a joke, dude, c'mon. Do I defend conspiracies? No. I refute lies and half-truths about my fraternity; and what's more, I as a non-Mason, because of this site, was and am more knowledgeable than alot of Masons. I don't say that to be cocky, but to make a point. I learned everything I know about Masonry before I even joined, including all the conspiracies and anti-Masonic claims, mostly thanks to ATS. My point is that I have investigated the conspiracies that the people who post here post about. Am I to just sit back and watch and not help them to dispel their ignorance of the subject, because it could be construed as "defending the Craft?"

[edit on 12/4/05 by The Axeman]

Axeman, I am assuming by the length of your post that you didn't see mine. Let's get back to the topic and let this go. Thank you.

As a side note, see #15 of the T&C:

15.) You will, if asked by myself or a moderator, cease posting any content, and/or links to content, deemed offensive, objectionable, or in poor taste by the representatives of the message board.

This is my third admonition to get back to the topic.

Originally posted by intrepid
Axeman, I am assuming by the length of your post that you didn't see mine. Let's get back to the topic and let this go. Thank you.

This is my third admonition to get back to the topic.

You know, Intrepid, you are talking about getting back on topic, but we are on target. Here we have a group of Masons, who are very knowledgeable about the facts pertinant to the topics that frequently find their way to this forum, being called out and "dogpiled" () by mods for merely defending the truth and putting forth effort to diffuse Light (read: knowledge; understanding) on the topics at hand. And we're being told to stop it.

The post that started all this is typical of the poster that made it, and it incited exactly the reaction he was looking for. You guys back him up and scold us for sticking up for the truth and calling a spade a spade, and he smiles because you are helping him.

Something to think about...

Who's the scapegoat here?

[edit on 12/4/05 by The Axeman]

Please reread the post above yours.

Mod Edit: another off topic post.

[edit on 4-12-2005 by kinglizard]

It seems that I've written on this subject a number of times today, on various forums, but here goes again, with a specific Freemasonry slant:

I don't believe that there's a specific, monolithic, defined "conspiracy" for political domination. Rather, there is a relatively small group of people who, by dint of their positions in government and/or business, control most of the power, and those people simply travel in the same circles, sit on the same councils, commissions and boards of directors, and, as pertinent to this thread, belong to the same fraternal organizations.

I don't believe that Masons want to take over the world-- I believe that people who want to take over the world join the Masons. They do this for the same reason that the people who want to wield power in a particular city join the Elks lodge or the Kiwanis Club or the local country club or what-have-you. In every place, there is a club or organization at which the local movers and shakers meet and gladhand each other and swing deals and make and break alliances and just generally try to accumulate and wield power. The Masons, as the oldest and most established fraternal organization, is an obvious venue for those people to do that networking on an international scale.

The organization is not the problem-- those who seek to wield power over others are the problem. The fact that they use that particular organization to further their goal of gathering and wielding power is almost immaterial. If it wasn't the Masons, it'd just be something else.



Just doing my bit to get this back on topic...



[edit on 4-12-2005 by Bob LaoTse]

Great post, mate. Very well articulated.

Masons as a society are the scapegoat within the world.

Masons as individual people seem to be the scapegoats in this thread.

Deny ignorance, and refute bulldust.

I think any level headed individual who reads though the rubbish that comes out of these guys whenever I make a 3 line post would have to start to ask serious questions about who is telling the truth.

There were 3 statements I declared to be false or grossly exaggerated in my original statement, in response there is the usual thread wrecking via unstructured cut 'n paste screaming, accompanied by the obligatory backslapping etc...

Some things never change.

Why are you guys so obsessed with my toilet?
Grow up already.

Originally posted by Leveller
What a load of crap.
The board has really gone downhill if people with your attitude can be made moderators.

You got it. Clearly ATS does not care about freedom of discussion.... they want one side to be presented (anti-Mason wild-eyed conspiracies that have already been discussed here 1,000,000 times each) without the other side because thats what keeps people coming back to the forum. Oh well. Was a good board for a while.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Let's get this straight, Axe, I am not wrong. You might be wrong if you think it all revolves around you, but that is not the case. So please, do not tell me what is wrong when I've been watching this mess for quite some time, so don't tell me otherwise.

You are awfully rude for a moderator. That was really uncalled for.

Really? That was rude? As far as I can see, those who will not tolerate the BS are rude, those who are with you are not.

Here's an idea, stick to discussing topics and I'll stick to the admining.

But, thanks, I was so looking forward to your unbiased opinion.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
But, thanks, I was so looking forward to your unbiased opinion.

Get over yourself.

aaaaahhhh, porch masonry at its best

the funny part is that the masonry that these guys are defending is most likely the most boring and insignificant secret society, ever. I mean, gathering, do stupid rituals and helping the community? what the hell is that hippie crap.