Israel Gets 2 New German Subs (Germany Helps with Bill)

Looks like the Israelis are stepping up their sea-going battle capabilities with two new submarines. Israel currently has 3 Dolphin-class submarines which it aquired from Germany after the first gulf war. Now It will recieve 2 more subs, but these are much more advanced than the previous versions. The new submarines fuel-cells allow the subs to sneak around with almost stelth-like capababilities and they can stay under water for days. One thing I did find odd was that Germany was paying 1/3 of the cost.

Can these submarines launch nuclear missiles? No one seems to want to comment on that factor? I have little reason to doubt that they could.

Israel 'to receive two new German submarines'

MUNICH - Israel's navy is to receive two of the world's most advanced new submarines, built at a German dockyard and partly financed by the German government, according to reports by two German weekly magazines on Saturday.

The new vessels would be of an entirely new, ultra-quiet class that is currently going into service with the German Navy. Unlike traditional diesel engines, the fuel-cell engines allow the submarines to remain under water for many days on end.

Noone admits it, but they are generally regarded capable of firing nuclear missiles (similar to the practise of not admitting Israelian nuclear capabilities, although everyone believes they have them ). The originial dolphins were outfitted with russian-sized 650mm torpedo tubes in addition to the western standard 533mm tubes. I havent seen info on whether the new boats will have those too, but I would expect it.

As some might argue, the partial payment by Germany cannot be attributed toany kind of WW2 reparations. Germany pays 1/3 of the costs because there is a vast amount of covert deals going between Germany and Israel since the 60s. We might never know the exact conditions under which those deals were sealed.

why would they pay 1/3
simple the guilt trip of what the germans did to jews in ww2
great trumph card for the isralis when it comes to this sort of deals

Originally posted by bodrul
why would they pay 1/3
simple the guilt trip of what the germans did to jews in ww2
great trumph card for the isralis when it comes to this sort of deals

probably have nothing to do with that. its more like keeping the German businesses going by helpin the Israelis to buy the big military deals. almost like the U.S. helping to provide some loans or pay part of the deal with taxpayers money to keep the military industry going.

The reparations to Israel are outlined and exactly defined in bilateral treaties. The Israelians cant and wont just come and open their hands a bit more. It would endanger a nice and steady income of huge amounts of money (since 1951 germany has payed over 20 TRILLION € to Israel).

So when do those reparations end?

"Days on end"? That's not really impressive if it's supposed to be a ultra modern system.. Our swedish subs (diesel) with Stirling systems can manage weeks without surfacing.

link

Originally posted by bodrul
why would they pay 1/3

Because Rheinmetal (Germany) builds them under Licence of Elbit (Haifa/IL).

Germany get's a lot here...

Originally posted by Clownface
"Days on end"? That's not really impressive if it's supposed to be a ultra modern system.. Our swedish subs (diesel) with Stirling systems can manage weeks without surfacing.

link

AIP isnt AIP . There are many different approaches to the problem of submerged conventional propulsion and the work on it began in the 30s in Germany. The Stirling systems are technically inferior to the german system (then again, swedish Kockum who builds the Gotland AIP system belongs to german HDW...). They are more complicated in build than the fuel cells and require more sorts of fuel (Oxygen, diesel, Helium, Nitrogen) and they still operate via combustion, creating noise and heat (though less than a conventional CCD - closed cycle diesel engine). Almost all energy that cannot be converted to electrical energy in this process is lost.

The fuel cell system however directly produces energy by a catalytic reaction, You have greatly reduced loss here and once the system works it is less prone to failing than the combustion AIP systems (no moving parts, rather simple build, no heat and vibration that could produce material stress, it consists of several fuel cells and even if one or more break, the rest continues to work with the same performance). You also do not have to post-process the exhaust of the fuel cell, because the only product is pure water which can be released directly outboards or even be used for the ship, for example the showers and toilets.

A clear sign for the superiourity is also the greatly increased energy output: while the Gotlands two Stirling systems generate 75kW each, the two fuel cells in the new Dolphins will generate about 100-120kW. The Stirling system is said to last up to two weeks submerged at 5 knots while the fuel cell is said to be capable of three weeks at 8 knots - although both numbers are only theoretical and greatly influenced by the outside factors. More notably the fuel cell can generate a peak power output by itself. The Gotlands have to rely on their AIP charged batteries.

There is only one downfall of the fuel cell system, and that is the rather dangerous refilling of the potentially explosive H². Once the tanks are filled this is no problem, they are below the waterline and the H² immediately dissolves in the seawater in case of a leakage.

[edit on 25/11/2005 by Lonestar24]

thanks for the info Lonestar24! I learn something here everyday

One thing I did find odd was that Germany was paying 1/3 of the cost.

No doubt Israel played the guilt card to perfection on that score