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Does anyone have the same thoughts on religion?

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posted on Sep, 22 2003 @ 12:11 AM
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Before I get into my topic, I would just like to say that this board is one of the largest I have ever come across. I find it hard to believe that so many individuals are actually interested in this kind of stuff. I signed up along time ago, but its just now that I realize how large this is, you guys have a good thing going here.

Now forward to my topic. I would just lile to say that I do believe in a force "that we have named god," to a certain point. I do not agree when people say god created actual people (Adam&Eve), I find it much more reasonable if god had created the basics, (Tiny bacteria or some cells......something microscopic) and then Evolution took over. yes I believe we evolved from apes......but I also believe that whatever apes evolved from probably evolved from a tiny bacteria or cell that "god created."

Why is it so hard for evolutionists and deeply religios people to agree. Evolution and Religion (to some extent) when combined make alot more sense than one without the other.

But god creating the basics is about as far as religious as I get.

I have been in countless arguments with many people over this. They've told me the worst (I'm goin to hell) ect, ect. You know why, because I don't follow the tiny (pointless) rules of my religion. I was born in Bosnia (next to Turkey, probably the only heavily populated Muslim area in Europe) so yes, I am a Muslim.

But I do eat Pork, I sometimes use profanity, I believe in sex before marriage, I usually do not do fasting, and I do not go to church. Those are only some of the major rules I seem to break.
I wasn't raised into heavy religion. I was raised and learned to believe that believeing and appreciating in God was enough. As long as I believe in god and show my faith inside, why would I have to go to a church and express that.

I'm also having a hard time believing in Heaven or Hell. I'm not saying it's not possible, because it surely is. But looking at history and at the births of religions.......it looks to me as if the religious leaders were only looking for power. Religion was a feared idea back then, and some people looked at this as an opportunity for something.

Naturally and by instinct we are afraid to die. People do not want to believe that after death its just dark and there is nothing left. We love life, and our minds want to believe that it continues after death. But I'll tell you something, you give me a being (human being) who doesn't know the concept of fear and I'll show you how funny the idea of life after death is.

Also, if there is a god why are there 4 or 5 of them (4 or 5 major religions) Why can't we agree on 1 god, because if there is a god, there is only 1. Not every group is so special that they get their own god.

And do you really believe that our god would want us to kill ourselves, because all those historic religious wars have left traces of blood that can still be smelled.

Anyway to conclude this, I would say that I do believe in 1 god. I appreciate this god. I do not believe in religion because I haven't a clue on which one is right. I am also very open-minded, I like to learn as i go........so I am in no way trying to say that life after death doesn't exist, I just find it hard to believe.......but I am also ready to be proven wrong at any second or minute of my life.

Is there anyone like me? haha

[Edited on 03/04/2003 by MilanLoyalty]



posted on Sep, 22 2003 @ 01:09 AM
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oh !! OMG!!OMG!!! You're from Bosnia??!! Me too!! Dude!! This is a first time I see a fellow bosnian on a conspiracy/paranormal website! wow, this is exciting...

Anyways, on topic now, I think that many people these days share the same beliefs with you, they believe in God, but dont practice organised religion. I myself see a lot of truth in your words, although I'm a bit more organised religious lol then you. I dont eat pork, I sometimes pray ( yet not as often as I'm supposed to), I do fasting, but not every single day of Ramadan, I've been in mosque maybe 10 times in my entire life ( I dont consider this to be of importance for the salvation of my soul). So I kinda practice religion for myself.




posted on Sep, 22 2003 @ 11:23 AM
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Whew! A post like that deserves a response at least equal effort to the thoughts that you put into it.


quoted by MilanLoyalty
I do not agree when people say god created actual people (Adam&Eve)...

I don't agree with those people either. Throughout the Bible (and the Dead Sea Scrolls from which originated the ancient Hebrew religion and thus Christianity & then Islam) spoke primarily with use of metaphor & parable. The original authors (yes, there was more than one author that contributed to the Scrolls) were trying to put forth ideas & concepts that were extremely complex, so they had to use such wording to convey concepts that had no direct method of describing them; Also, they had to use a style of language that could convey those concepts to the understanding of "commoners". It seems that too many people take the Bible (or other such Scriptures) as being word-for-word truth, when the effort to describe those concepts in "absolute truth" was impossible.
As such, the story of Genesis is, IMO, more describing an era of time in human history rather than trying to convey any actual events. In other words, those original texts describe how God directly established the "system of physical laws" that caused the evolution of Earth & human beings. IE: "Let there be light", "He separated the Heavens from the Earth", etc.
Adam & Eve, for an example, were the first "human beings" made by God, but that event is worded as, "made (or "came") from the Earth". Well, *all* forms of life "came from the Earth"; Even the lowliest of single-celled bacteria (and viruses, which are even smaller and can't survive long without a host) "came from the Earth". Those ancient scholars (that originally wrote the first texts) didn't have any concept of the laws of physics or genetics & DNA...But they had to describe the evolution of life in a way that anyone who read the texts could understand the initial concept.

quoted by MilanLoyalty
Evolution and Religion (to some extent) when combined make a lot more sense than one without the other.

I agree. Not just the theories of Evolution, but the discipline of Science in general, even though in more modern times, I think that Science has become mostly perverted as an end in itself rather than being used as a tool for the benefit of humankind; The progress of Science seems to have left out the Spiritual Sciences too much, leaving humankind more involved in the *physical* to the detriment of the *spiritual*. However, the Sciences have given us the power of observation to figure out *how* God put everything together & a more sophisticated language to describe it. Albert Einstein was asked how he came up with his most brilliant theories; His reply was that he'd sit down & ask himself, "If I were God, how would I do it?" When he learned that his most brilliant theories on atomic physics was perverted into a weapon of mass destruction he cried because he saw those theories as a tool for the benefit of mankind instead of being for committing mass-murder. Einstein is also quoted as saying that, "Any killing done under the cloak of war is still nothing more than murder"; One of our members at ATS uses that quote in his signature.

Let's also take the description of Satan manipulating Eve into eating Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge for example; Couldn't Satan have simply offered to directly *teach* knowledge to Eve, who passed that knowledge onto Adam? In other words, this "event" would describe the point of time in human history when we first found out how to *make* tools & develop agriculture, after countless generations of merely using *found* tools & gathering berries (as Chimpanzees & other primates in the wild still do even today).
It seems that this particular "event" describes the time when the early homids gained enough sentience to realize that they could make changes in their environment rather than merely reacting to it the same way all other animals did. All in all, the "history" described in the Bible is not as much the true story of Evolution, but critical points in human history when the direct Divine (or Infernal) intervention was directly responsible for certain events.
IMO, the Chapter of Revelations (In the Bible) are logical predictions of what *will* happen if humankind doesn't learn how to embrace the spiritual side of the human condition before our material greed causes us to wipe each other out. God gave those visions to the prophets as a *warning* of what will happen if we don't straighten up & fly right, not as an absolute unchangeable future.

quoted by MilanLoyalty
They've told me the worst (I'm going to hell) ect, ect.

I think you might try looking around at what-the-hell-is-hell.com... & see what you can find. That website has brief descriptions of Hell collated from quite a few links to other documentation originally written by the foremost biblical scholars of their times. When you've read what they've figured out about Hell, you might even tell those people that they're most likely to wind up in Hell too...And see how they react as you dazzle them with more knowledge of the Bible than they have!

In a nutshell, the modern "teachings" & general beliefs about Hell & what it's *really* all about have been misrepresented from the scriptures to become a way to instill fear into the "faithful masses" so that the Church gets more obedience from their "flock". You've said that you're Muslim...But I think you would benefit with a bit more *understanding* of Christianity as well. Even if you still wish to remain Muslim, such understanding can help you relate better to the Christians you interact with. You'll find that the more "enlightened" Christians also study the Koran as well & you'll be more capable of identifying (& avoiding) the radical fundamentalists in both religions.

quoted by MilanLoyalty
As long as I believe in god and show my faith inside, why would I have to go to a church and express that.

That faith *is* all you need & don't let anyone try to tell you otherwise. If you can't find God within your own heart & mind, you won't find him in a Church/Synagogue/Whatever. The Church should only be a place where people of like mind & heart can socialize with each other & organize to help their fellow human beings. That's what the expression of God's Love is all about...Get along with each other & help each other whenever they have real *need* of help; If they love God too, then you can expect help when *you* need it in return.

quoted by MilanLoyalty
.......it looks to me as if the religious leaders were only looking for power. Religion was a feared idea back then, and some people looked at this as an opportunity for something.
The problem with some churches is when they become *highly organized*. Any organization (Not just Religions, but governments/corporations/secret societies/etc) that reaches a certain size & level of influence is bound to eventually be infiltrated by those who seek their own agendas & personal advancement at the cost of other people. Why else does the History of the Church contain so many "heretics" & why have reports of child abusers in the Catholic Church been infested with child abusers come to public attention in recent times? Why did the Bavarian Illuminati (Created & led by Adam Weishaupt) infiltrate & recruit new members from Ingolstadt University & the Lodge of Theodore of Good Counsel (A Masonic Lodge in Munich) in the late 1700's?
It's because some people within the *organization* seek to use their positions to gain control over others...Those hungry for power tend to congregate towards organizations that *have* power. Even the people who are sincere may be seeking to place themselves as intermediaries between you & God (or between you & social authority of any reasonable extent), when you don't really need any such "middlemen". Having Faith in God does *not* equate with having faith in Organized Religion. This is also why the Revelations chapter in the Bible describes the coming of "legions of false prophets" in the end-times...Those who use the power & influence of the Church (or any other large organization) for their own gain instead of using that power for the benefit of all humankind. These are all logical predictions if you understand the nature of human greed & power-lust.

quoted by MilanLoyalty
Why can't we agree on 1 god, because if there is a god, there is only 1.

Actually, God Himself has admitted that there is more than the One God...Look at the First Commandment; "Thou shalt not worship other gods before Me". In this one statement, God has admitted that there *are* other gods, but He wants you to worship Him above them all. Even then, of the 4 or 5 major religions you've mentioned, take notice that Islam & Christian religions worship *the same God*, but they merely worship Him in different ways! Of all of the branches of Christianity (Baptist, Catholic, etc, ad infinitum) they still worship the same God too, but they choose to worship Him in their own ways! Native American Indians have a belief in The Great Spirit! Dualistic religions recognize one God of Light (As well as having a God of Darkness as a rival)! Buddhists may venerate the various incarnations of Buddhas as those people who've led holy enough lives (In numerous reincarnations) to escape the cycle of birth/death/rebirth & now live with the One God! The older, Pantheistic Religions recognized that *one* of their gods was "above the others" within their religion! Even the old "pagan" religions profess that, while there are many lesser spirits & divinities, they were ruled over by a superior, some referred to that superior divinity as Gaia, the spirit of the Earth that we all "came from"!

quoted by MilanLoyalty
I do not believe in religion because I haven't a clue on which one is right.

Once you've performed enough research to realize it, you'll come to realize that all of these religions are right, but they're also wrong! At least, it sounds like you already "feel" the answer even if you haven't *recognized* it as such. The main reason why there are so many different religions is because of geographical separation & cultural upbringing. As technology of travel progressed enough for the different cultures to begin mixing & learning about each other, there have *always* been "false prophets" who would use their power within their "organized religion" who sought power by subjugating people of other cultures/religions...Thus, while professing to worship a God of Love, they would manipulate the "faithful" into committing crimes of hate. I've seen an article at The Onion that, even though it uses a seemingly irreverent method, puts forth God's Message quite clearly in an attempt to emphasize the *importance* of that Message: www.theonion.com...

quoted by MilanLoyalty
Is there anyone like me?

Actually, there's more of us than you probably realize...But if they've been able to gain enough attention of the "mainstream" religious organizations, they may likely to be found labeled as "heretic" or "excommunicated" (as if one human being could possibly "excommunicate" another from God Himself). I'm not one of those kind of people, but just be careful; Some such people who've fallen in disfavor of the Religion itself may actually be quite looney...The Church isn't *always* wrong about their judgments even though *some* of those judgments may be skewed by relying on the mistakes of altered scriptures in the Church's history. Such happens when you mix politics & religion...



[Edited on 22-9-2003 by MidnightDStroyer]



posted on Sep, 23 2003 @ 04:13 PM
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I just want to begin by complimenting your knowledge in the field.

My effort in the post measures small compared to your response.

I do appreciate the response from both of you........it makes my day just a little less stressfull.

No back to business, I do want you know that I don't tend to start a "religion topic" with my friends or the people I come across in school. With them I pass the time by playing video games, sports, watching movies, hanging out, ......the regular stuff. It's the deeply religios people I come across with as friends of the family that bother me.
For example, this summer I had come acorss a guy who was about 20 years old, he was very honest, "do the right thing" guy. Of course I respected this, but as I spent more time with him (3-4 days), I saw a side of him which I did not like. He was as hard-headed as you can imagine, he was also Muslim and he felt that his way of thinking was the only way and on top of everything he totally disrespected mine.

He believed god created everything to the point, he did not even want to bother hearing of evolution. This rules out man evolving from ape and anything to do with evolution, he believes god had created man the exact way man is now.

I was 100% fine with this, I would never judge the guy.......I feel I have no right to, but he had no problem judging my beliefs. He also had no problem judging the beliefs of my little sister. My sister who is not yet mature and lives in a world of her own had blabbed out something concerning Greek Mythology......and the gods they believed in. I first thought this was a little funny myself, but shes just a child and I do not want to interfere with her process of growing up and her way of thinking, because I know it will change once she starts learning about history. Anyway I can't explain to you how insulting his word sounded, and I did not like it at all.

I saw other sides of him, less complex sides. For example he did not like loosing, and I mean he couldn't stand it. In video games, sports, arguments.........you name it. he liked things to be his way or no other way.

We had been in a conversation "The perfect woman" or the perfect marriage. He had earlier complained about the difficult side of finding a girlfriend, and to me it looked more like nobody could come up to his standards or his moral beliefs.......

He was a very nice guy, very honest and like I said "do the right thing" man, and we had gone well along ( mainly for the reason that I'm an easy going guy, I don't get heated if someone thinks different from me, and I do not care for loosing, especially in video games), but should I have been like him, we probably would have ended up in a fight. Anyway I believe his deep religious feelings made him the complicated person he is. In religion like in general he believed his beliefs or the Muslim beliefs were the only way to live. Just very difficult to be with. I honestly hope that most people with passion for religion are not like him, because I can tell those people now that they will have a hard time agreeing with different individuals ( and a hard time finding a wife, lol)




[Edited on 03/04/2003 by MilanLoyalty]



posted on Sep, 23 2003 @ 04:25 PM
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I'm glad to hear from a fellow Bosnian.

Drago mi je da cujem od Bosanca, pogotovo ako zivis u Evropi. lol

Sorry, I might have lost some of my Bosnian grammar. I have been away for long. I was born in Sarajevo, but have moved to the United States and lived here for almost 10 years. I'm even a United States citizen.

I do plan to move back to Europe as soon as I'm done with schooling, Italy or Bosnia, maybe even Croatia.

I had originally signed for this site because of UFO's or Top secret government facilities. That kind of stuff interests me, but instead I wanted to discuss religion a little bit first.

Anyway, its good to be here and hopefully I can come and post more often.



posted on Sep, 23 2003 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by MilanLoyalty
he liked things to be his way or no other way.

This could be dangerous...If some "holy man" could convince a person like this that it would be the "right thing" to kill infidels, he probably would with God in his thoughts & a smile on his lips.

The trick would be figuring out whether or not your friend is too stubborn to fall for a manipulative trick like that or not...



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