The Sabbath Day, When Is It?

Originally posted by jake1997
seawater

Scripture tells us to keep the sabbath. It does not command us to keep the 7th day. It says sabbath.
Now we have the tradition of Israel that puts it on saturday, and then we have the tradition of some of those same jews, who became christians...followers of Christ..saying it doesnt matter what day.

I will have to defer to scripture. I dont know all of it by heart , so if you can show me some overlooked scripture that tells a specific day then we will have to look at Paul again.

It is not a tradition that the Sabbath is the 7th day... just check out Ex 20: 10, for example... It specifically says that the Sabbath is the 7th day.

Anyway, what do you think that Dan 7:25 is referring to? I believe with all my heart that during the Great Tribulation the penatly for not keeping Satan's counterfeit Sabbath will be death. That is what the Holy Spirit keeps saying. Please pray about this.

And about the verse from Romans. I think it could possibly be mistranslated or something. Gen 2:3 and alot of other make it clear that the 7TH day is more holy than the rest!

Also, because when I read it in context, Paul is not talking about the Law in anyway. He talks about this thing with vegetables, which has nothing to do with the Law. There is NOTHING in the Law that prohibits ppl from eating meat (though it does say SOME [but NOT all] meats are unclean). When I read it, it looks like Paul is talking about food sacrificed to idols. This was a problem for the ppl @ Corinth also ( 1 Cor 10: 14-33).
The bible says let everything be established w/ 2 or 3 witnesses.
If you read 1 Cor 10:25 it talks about food in the meat market. Anyway, in these pagan cities often meat or wine would be offered to false gods on certian days etc...
Okay, so Paul basically comes to the same conclusion in both Romans and Corinthians about this:
He basically says that the believer has freedom to eat meat. But, 1 Cor 10:21 we should not put up a stumbling block for anyone Jew, Gentile of member of the Church (those weak in the faith [Rom 14: 13, 20-21] who do not think it is okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols).
Well. Don't take my word for it. Read the scriptures yourself; (I'm sure you will). See if the Holy Spirit shows you something.

This is from my last post:

Paul makes a point to make a distinction between the shabbat-day and this eternal shabbat rest we have in YAH that no one can come into, but by the Son (John14:6).

Heb 4: 4 For he spake in a certain placeof theseventh day on this wise, "And God did rest the SEVENTH day from all his works". [quote < Gen 2: 2].


[ < Gen 2:2 < is speaking of the SEVENTH day-shabbat. BUT > Ps 95: 7-8 is a reference to the gospel-shabbat (peace) > ]


Heb 4: 5And in this place again
[repeating Heb 4:3],
"If they shall enter into my rest".
[quote < Psalm 95: 7-8].

that circumcision was part of the law.
The point is that you keep the sabbath.
NOT that you keep the seventh day

I think what Paul was talking about in that verse was using circumcision in the flesh as a way to justify yourself before God as opposed to being circumcised in the heart (Rom 2: 29)

Till then, I have to go with Pauls reasoning.

I am not under the law,l am under grace
God see's your heart.
If you put yourself back under the law, then you must keep the entire law.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

trust me I understand. I did a bible study on this, because the Shabbat thing is a heated issue:
journals.aol.com...

I understand that the Shabbat DAY is a shadow of the reality which is in Christ Jesus. But Jesus is not a day. So, what do we do with all the scriptures where God says keep the Shabbat DAY holy?
And I do understand how this can lapse into legalism. Just click that last link. In John 3 Jesus said, just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert so to will the Son of Man be lifted it (...paraphrasing) In Kings or Chronicles it mentions that some of the Isrealites took that foreshadow of the bronze snake and made it into an idol... I don't think the Shabbat day should be idolized like that...turned into something more than it is. In the process, becoming an abomination to God>> like the Pharisees said Jesus was breaking the Shabbat, when HE was really keeping it the way God the Father intended from the very beginning.

Am I making sense?

Yes, your making sense LOL

We are following the same path to the same place, we are just getting there one day apart.
I believe when Jesus said to love the Lord with all your heart, and to love your brother as yourself, that He was condensing the 10 commandments into 2.

Now its also clear that Jesus was concerned more with the heart then legal aspects because the Pharisees tried to accuse Him for healing on the sabbath.

Ill have to take some time to consider this again. I dont have that time right now tho..
work

I'll post again soon

Originally posted by jake1997Now its also clear that Jesus was concerned more with the heart then legal aspects because the Pharisees tried to accuse Him for healing on the sabbath.

Its lawful to heal on the Sabbath...
The Pharisees weren't keeping the law, but traditions that made void God's commands.

Well. I'm looking forward to your posts!

Off the top....
It would prolly be better just to go ahead and keep saturday as the sabbath just so that there is no doubt what so ever.

That said.. in todays america...the week is seven days and although that paper on the wall shows sunday as the first day of the week, we live as tho our week begins on Monday and ends on Sunday. They had two calendars in the ancient world. A civil and religious one. This is similar to us now, although if we declared it so...the ACLU would hemorage all the way to the supreme court.

Back to scripture

Col 2:1

For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face,

Something that caught my eye this time was the mention of Laodicea. When you see what Jesus said to Laodicea in Revelation, and what Paul is talking about here, you cant help but wonder if its no small coincodence that they are mentioned together.

Paul is warning them about keeping their eyes on Christ vs falling into the worldly trap.

Col 2:8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

This is similar to what the 4 RCC bishops did recently, and what JP2 did concerning evolution. They fliped from Christ , over to tradition of men. Thats just one type of example. Lets see where it goes


Col 2:9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
Col 2:10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;
Col 2:14 having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;
Col 2:15 having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it

In the above we see Paul explaining salvation. You are dead to your sins, dead to the world, alive in Christ. Your sins are forgiven, your heart belongs to God. You are saved.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.

All of these belong to the jews.
The food laws, ( what and when to eat )
Drink ( You will find that certain things required no drinking)
Feast days ( Again, part of the law)
Sabbath (any holy day...such as feasts, not just the 7th day. Example: Jesus was killed before a double sabbath. Friday and Saturday were sabbath days. Passover Friday, and the the regular saturday)
Thats another topic

Ok, the clue as to whos Feast days, sabbath days, etc... that Paul is talking about is in verse 2:17

"Shaddow of things to come"

The pagan feast days are not a shadow of things to come. The Jewish days are.

The handle not, taste not, touch not was something that the Pharisees blew out of proportion by adding things to it. It comes from Lev 7.

Anyway , All of this is to say that I cannot give as much importance to the specific day.

It is said that all of these things are a shadow of things to come. The real sabbath will be the rest we have in Christ when we ceace from our work.
Just as you sin with your heart in lust, murder, covetness..... so I have to beliee that Christ is more concerned with the heart when it comes to the sabbath. I will keep a day of rest, and I will give God the glory for it.

If I worry about which day I keep, then I will also start keeping the feast days because if the sabbath still applies, then so do those days also.

Passover (not easter) (this was a shaddow of Christs death on the cross.

Exo 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial, and ye shall keep it a feast to Jehovah: throughout your generations ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Unleavened Bread Circumcision of the heart. The leaven represents sin.
You eat the bread without sin (Christ the Word of God) and then get baptised (they went thru the Red Sea..Christs red blood washed you of sin) Then they went 40 years in the desert with God feeding them from heaven. All of it a shodow of things to come.

Exo 12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day throughout your generations by an ordinance for ever.


Feast of the Harvest/First fruits - Harvest Offering First day after the Sabbath after Passover (ie..Sunday. I never noticed that before)

Exo 23:16 and the feast of harvest, the first-fruits of thy labors, which thou sowest in the field: and the feast of ingathering, at the end of the year, when thou gatherest in thy labors out of the field.

Lev 23:9 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring the sheaf of the first-fruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Lev 23:11 and he shall wave the sheaf before Jehovah, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Lev 23:12 And in the day when ye wave the sheaf, ye shall offer a he-lamb without blemish a year old for a burnt-offering unto Jehovah.



Tabernacles

Lev 23:34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, On the fifteenth day of this seventh month is the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto Jehovah.
(roughly speaking...i believe this falls in september)

Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto Jehovah seven days in the year: it is a statute for ever throughout your generations; ye shall keep it in the seventh month.

The Day of Atonement

Lev 23:27 Howbeit on the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement: it shall be a holy convocation unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto Jehovah.
.....
Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of solemn rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye keep your sabbath.


Feast of Trumpets Rosh Hashannah - Jewish new year

Lev 23:23 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, shall be a solemn rest unto you, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation.
Lev 23:25 Ye shall do no servile work; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto Jehovah.

I think this is the one we are waiting for ehh?
At the sound of what? The Lord will decend with a shout. :-)


The 7th Day

Lev 23:1 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, The set feasts of Jehovah, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my set feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of work: it is a sabbath unto Jehovah in all your dwellings


Summary Those are the sabbath days of Israel as defind in the law of Moses. No one is more important. They are all in Lev 23. If you goto hell for not keeping one, then the same is true of the rest. That is what Paul was trying to explain. Being under one part of the law means being under the entire law, and its price.

Anyway... I love the feast days and I kept my first passover last year and easter could not be found in my house. If you do a search and learn what the christian passover...you will see that it is a very wonderful experience and is great for teaching the kids about Christ.
The rest of the days are also a shaddow of things to come and you can use them as learning aids as well. Do not however, put yourself under them, in service to them. The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.


EDIT: A side note that I didnt feel was needed to expand on

Mar 2:23 And it came to pass, that he was going on the sabbath day through the grainfields; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears.
Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Did ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was hungry, he, and they that were with him?
Mar 2:26 How he entered into the house of God when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the showbread, which it is not lawful to eat save for the priests, and gave also to them that were with him?
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 so that the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath.

They not only healed, but worked on the sabbath...right there with Christ, and He commended it.

[edit on 20-11-2005 by jake1997]

But is it lawful for you to create or destroy on the sabbath?
How do we know what was unlawful and lawful on sabbath?
did God tell us or was it all tradition?

For this topic it doesnt matter.

For the new one that you might create to discuss that...the bible says to rest from all your work.

EDIT: A side note that I didnt feel was needed to expand on

Mar 2:23 And it came to pass, that he was going on the sabbath day through the grainfields; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears.
Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Did ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was hungry, he, and they that were with him?
Mar 2:26 How he entered into the house of God when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the showbread, which it is not lawful to eat save for the priests, and gave also to them that were with him?
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 so that the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath.

They not only healed, but worked on the sabbath...right there with Christ, and He commended it.

[edit on 20-11-2005 by jake1997]

I must say I absolutely DISagree with the sidenote. Sin is transgression of the law. Jesus (YAHSHUA) was SINLESS. HE did NOT condone work on the 7th DAY Shabbat:

Mt 12-13 (also read Mk 2:23 -4:34 & Lk 6:1-11)

Mt 12: 5Or have yenot read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? (

Originally posted by scienceguy94
But is it lawful for you to create or destroy on the sabbath?
How do we know what was unlawful and lawful on sabbath?
did God tell us or was it all tradition?

Have you heard of the Scripture where Jesus (YAHSHUA) said "I have come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it"...

Well... it was an idiomatic expression to use the words fulfill and abolish in reference to the TORAH!! When YAHSHUA said that he did NOT ONLY mean HE would fulfill the prophecies in the simplest understanding of the phrase.

YAHSHUA is the Son of YAHVEH. HE is the SINLESS Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world!! Sin is defined as transgression of the Law. So YAHSHUA also fulfilled the Law because HE never broke it...

BUT (in the context)
the word fulfill also meant to interpret
and abolish also meant to misinterpret...

So, ...remember when I was talking about "Oral Torah"...
Those were the traditions of men that made the commands of God void.

So if you read Mt c5-7 you see YAHSHUA teaching/preaching about the original intent of the LAW/TORAH (which is LOVE)...

NOT only does HE preach about it but HE fulfills it during HIS ministry on earth for 3.5 years. If yo uhave heard about Torah portions today. You know that most religious Jews cycle through the Torah in a year.
When YAHSHUA was walking the earth the Written Torah was cycled through in 3.5 years (same length as YAHSHUA's ministry).

So read Luke 4:14 to the end. YAHSHUA reads a part of the Torah and then goes out and fulfills it... Or read John 2:24 through 3:1-21. YAHSHUA fulfilled the Passover Feast because HE is the SINLESS LAMB (Ex 12: 5-6, 13) who averts the wrath of God! Or read John 7..HE fulfills the Feast of Tabenacles (Lev 23: 33-44) because HE came and dewlt/"tabernacled" amoung us...
There are probably more examples...none come to mind rigt now though

BUT anyway... truth is you can't know what is lawful or not to do on the Shabbat unless the Holy Spirit lives in you.

WHY?
Because God demands obedience!

But remember how Christians like to say "we are saved by grace through faith"... NOT WORKS

Well, that is true. So the things is when you really recieve eternal life (not when you die, but) the moment you have totally repented and put your faith in YAHSHUA. HIS Spirit comes and lives in you. YAHSHUA said eternal life is to KNOW God.

Well how exactly does that work?
Well you KNOW HIM now in this life through the power and presence of the HOLY SPIRIT!!
YAHSHUA made the promise that HE would make HIMSELF manifest (kjv) or "show" HIMSELF (niv) in John 14: 21 to those that would obey HIM.
aka OBEY the gospel command:
thekingiscomingtoreign.blogspot.com...

ETERNAL LIFE is NOT about "blind" faith.

BUT at the same time John the Baptist testified about YAHSHUA and said ONLY he who accepts YAHSHUA and YAHSHUA's WORD certify that God is truthful in John 3:33... the King James Version uses the words "he that recieveth his [YAHSHUA's] testimony has set to his seal that God is true".
In other words you can't KNOW God until you take a "leap of faith" and totally put your faith in HIM.

To answer your original question:
we do what is lawful on the Shabbat by obeying the TORAH as the HOLY SPIRIT reveals to do so and by following YAHSHUA's example.
There is no "cookie-cutter" formula.

**EDIT: man...I have alot of spelling errors. I bet I missed most of them! O well.

[edit on 21-11-2005 by seawater999]

Ill have to rest with the scripture.
I will let no man judge me, and I will keep the sabbath to the glory of God. He and I are at peace on this matter.
Thanks for the discussion on this. It was worth a re-examination with a fellow believer. Going over the word like this is healthy for the spirit, just as exercise is for the body.

Originally posted by jake1997
seawater
.......
Till then, I have to go with Pauls reasoning.

I am not under the law,l am under grace
God see's your heart.
If you put yourself back under the law, then you must keep the entire law.
....

So much for that reasoning, because if you keep ANY of the 10 Commandments you have (oops) kept one of God's laws, therefore you are already guilty of the whole 613.
Banjo

If you look at this list of the 613 commandments you see that most are unfullfilable becuase they have to do with the temple and agriculture. Plus how many here have slaves or are in wars
www.jewfaq.org...

Glad you said 'most of them' , but even if you ignore 600 of them, there are 10 you cant, and the fact still stands;
If you keep ONE of them, you're guilty of them all....
Banjo

So who are you to judge if israel has kept the commandments correctly? Mr" im such a righteous christian"??

Its not your duty to judge. remember what jesus said about judging?

Whoah boy, calm down there!
Guess I missed that one; because I don't rightly recall judging anyone; I was merely quoting the Lord's brother;

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


But since you broached the subject of judgement, also remember what Luke said, because it does allow us to be 'fruit inspectors';


Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


Banjo