France riots and Portugal...Similar?

It was My friend and learned Gentleman Jak's that brought this to my attention ans suggested i should perhaps post?

news.bbc.co.uk...

the above link shows the report of Youths storming one of Portugals busiest beaches in the heart of summer this year.

The youths were mainly black and from the poorer suburbs in Lisbon (the countrys capital).

TextWhat really has people worried is that this might catch on, making the beaches as unsafe as those in Brazil, where it is assumed the idea for the attack came from.

There were 2 more similar incidents on beaches in the Algarve region within 2 weeks.

Portugal is a poor country, long since drained of its colonial wealth by long running wars and troubles in far away places, mainly west africa.

Lisbon's cosmopolitan,vibrant wealthy exterior hides some of the poorest suburbs in the country, predominatley 'Bairro Pontal' , the high density of mixed races living in sub standard conditions on pathetically poor wages constantly brews high tensions with violent crime on a rapid increase.

From my viewpoint (living in the country and visiting lisbon occasionally) things are only going to get worse, VAT is at an all time high of 21% with constant increases in living costs, making an average comfortable living difficult to be attained, even for families and businesses with a stable history and the ability to borrow from banks and credit providers in an attempt to 'tide them over' in these difficult times.

Taking the above into account, the immigrants in this country (many illegal) are surely to be the first to suffer and the hardest hit.

God forbid they decide to rampage on a scale similar to that in france as they did in the summer.

Regards.

wellllll .... Portugal may be more poor than many European countries but it's not a poor country. Poor country is Brazil, Venezuela, Ucrain.... POrtugal is a industrialized country.
If that happens in Portugal I'm shure it will not be the same as France. There is less ilegal immigrants and the portuguese authorities are less permissive.

The portuguese wars in Africa in the sixties and seventies had an impact in portuguese economy, but that impact was not that profound.

Portugal have problems with ilegal immigrantion like the majority of the European countries. That incident was isolated and can't be compared to what happened in France.

Brazil and Venezuela are poor countries?
So the Africa's countries are what, zoos?

Originally posted by optimus fett
It was My friend and learned Gentleman Jak's that brought this to my attention ans suggested i should perhaps post?

news.bbc.co.uk...

the above link shows the report of Youths storming one of Portugals busiest beaches in the heart of summer this year.

What really has people worried is that this might catch on, making the beaches as unsafe as those in Brazil, where it is assumed the idea for the attack came from.

There is a thread about this subject in:
'500 Black People Organized Assault on Portuguese Beach on Portugal NATIONAL day'
www.belowtopsecret.com...

Crustas

Mod Edit: Fixed Quote Tag.




[edit on 15/11/2005 by Mirthful Me]

[edit on 15-11-2005 by crustas]

Caetano...do you live in Portugal?

Yes I'm portuguese. I live in Lisbon

TextBrazil and Venezuela are poor countries?

Eh?.....sorry...i dont get the point your making?


crustas.....this thread is different from yours......im promoting discussion and replys based on parrallels that may be drawn between events leading up to the France riots and wether similarities are relevant with the state of affairs in portugal, im not re-reporting the previously stated facts.


Caetano....

Textwellllll .... Portugal may be more poor than many European countries but it's not a poor country.

ok, its not 3rd world but it doesnt feel like its far from it most days....

from my point of view, running several businesses in Portugal and Also in West Africa, the attitudes of goverments and local goverment departments in the two places are so similar.

Nothing can be achieved quickly without bribing the correct official, No one in any position of authortity seems to understand the law they are practicing and implecating, it is virtually impossible to get any legal document or desicion made (regarding businesses) in a time scale that is acceptable elsewhere in Europe, this is to name but a few things.

Most of the wealthy portuguese i work with are moving business to Spain, turning offices and workshops here into franchises.

Recent statistics show Portugal spiraling further and further into debt, with continued reports of stealing and coruption coming to light within the goverment.

Personally i think things here are going to get far worse, especially in the algarve Region and Lisbon, talk is cheap and any chance of further help for Portugal from europe seems unlikley.

In the 20 years since portugal joined the EU what has changed?....as far as i can see we built some nice new roads and some nice new villas and hotels in Brazil for members of the goverment fleeing after being caught with their hands in the honeypot?

I would be interested to see what changes to Portugal you think have been noteworty?

Industry in portugal (in my opinion) seems to only benefit the factory owners, portugals economy can barley support its self at present, if it could why have we endured such wild vat and price increases?

from my point of view Portugal is poor with nothing in the pot.

Hello... I don't think a country has to be considered poor in order for it to have a sizable poor populace. Even USA has sections which are very poor.

Unemplyment, poverty, no future, disinterested gov't., these are things that can lead to riots being sparked by a minor or unrelated incident.

Portugal have problems with ilegal immigrantion like the majority of the European countries

Actually... we have a lil bit more, but since are gov has no solid back bone, we give them houses, and jobs and pet their heads when things start to get ugly. Cause that's our gov's way of dealing with the problem - hiding and shutting them up.

If something like what happened in France happened in Portugal, I bet every black illegal would be driving a Mercedes by now.

We could do something, but we don't. Instead streets get more dangerous every day while at the same time they issue a brand new and more restrictive "gun license" bill that basically forbids 70% of the REAL and HARD-WORKING Portuguese ppl to protect themselves... and the other 30 you may ask.

Well.. the other 30 can only use it in special ocasions (those that never happen) if u shoot someone who has a knife, it would be "excessive force" (jail), if u shoot someone that has gun outdoors, its murder, cause you went out with yer gun to DO something with it. As far as I know, the only situation that u can shoot someone in this country is, if the other person has a gun, used it at least once (before u use yours) and u are inside of your own property / house / flat. Other than that - JAIL

Portugal is... actually, Portugal is a very ver nice place with low security, and friendly ppl - that's why it was the Spy-Center of the world in the WWII and that's why its still the best place for any foreign criminal or terrorist to hide, simply because we have nice weather, stupid laws that protect every single criminal, lack of security (if I wanted to bomb any gov building I would just... go there and do it hehe) and we are a very nice ppl that gets along with everyone.

This is the perfect place where you could see a Portuguese grocery owner having a football (soccer) discussion with Bin Laden drinking old "Amarguinha" (traditional portuguese alcoholic drink) and eating cheetos... ppl are friendly and dont care.

The good part is... you'll never ever see a terrorist act like the 911 in portugal - thats for sure.

And... Portugal IS a poor country by european standarts. Don't compare it to ukraine or Burkina Faso... Its a European country and its poor and has the highest taxes of almost all european countries and the lowest pay-checks.

Caetano for you I speak in Portuguese (if others don't mind)

Porreiro ver um Portugues por aqui - um abraço

Sorry, I was just replying to Caetano
I won't bother anybody here again, see ya.

Olá FraternitasSaturni

Portugal may be in crisis but other countries are also suffering crisis like Germany. In fact German have a higher deficit than Portugal. Despite all the troubles ,we are far from becoming a country from third world.
In 20 years Portugal had a tremendous growth. I think only the portuguese can feel the difference.

Portugal is a country that for many times suffered crisis and hard times but allways managed to resolve all the problems. It's one of the oldest countries in the world, and managed to survive despite the ambitions of powerfull countries like France, Spain or England. This crisis will be resolved.

Portugal suffer from bad image in Europe, and many things said outside Portugal are an exageration or a distorcion from the reality. We are not a third world country and we are far from it.

I don't think we are so permissive like the French. What happened in the beach was quickly controled. We have good police and armed forces. I remember the Euro2004 and how the portuguese police managed to control the English in a very eficient way. How many police forces in Europe managed to controle the English fans so good? For instance Belgian police in the Euro2000 was incapable to control riots in the their capital. Ok....different problems.. but I think it's a good example to show the difference between portugal police and police forces from central europe.

What happened in the beach was a group of 15-20 young men causing trouble and the rest seen in the photos are people running way. It wasn't 500 causing the riots.

ufffffff....10 years without english classes make very dificult writing this post.

Portugal,
As far as i know Portugal is a third and first world it depends on the point of view.

It's a third world in some regions, mainly in the countryside
Reason: There are lot of uneducated, poor and old people who has no value for the government therefore the Gov. doesn't invest in there. People is left on their on. The fires during the summers, are a living proof of that.Those fires only makes people even more poor.

Anyone with common sense would see that the resources to fight those fires are really low. But if you would like to build 10 brand new football stadiums to receive Euro2004 it's ok, when in those countryside places there's not a proper school for children or even a decent hospital.
It's a funny way of thinking.


It's a first world on some cities, but the mainly in Lisbon, where you have anykind of service that exists elsewhere in Europe, if u have the $ .
The only problem is the housing projects, well in some neighbourhoods we could not tell that it's a house, it's more a bunch of brick shacks. People living in there are almost all African(from former colonies), only a small number of white portugueses live there. These Africans are most of them exploited in the construction bussiness. Some of them are in Portugal for more than 20 years and yet they are not legalize which is good for contractors who can, by that way escape taxes.

Great country is it?

Corruption, "laissez faire laissez passer", lobbying is everywhere and to realise that you just have to see the news or just try a public service you would get a lifetime experience .

Well Portugal is a poor country? Or is just another bad managed country? I really don't know. Rich is not, that i know, but there are money to go fight the axis of evil, there are government funds going to Angola, Mozambique, Cape vert, Timor, and others.

They are going to do BIG now, the TGV train and a new airport on a place called Ota. By the way Ota located 40km south of Lisbon, is flood plane place, how can they build it here??? Well when it rains they will have to divert flights to Oporto 300km North.. Great mastermind, no doubt.


One of this days i think that Brussels will sent a management government to Portugal to replace portuguese government. That days is more near than people think.


Returning to the subject of the
"France riots and Portugal...Similar?"
Yes they are:
1- French and portuguese most of them adolescents

2- Second generation, born in the country where their fathers emigrated

3-No identification with the culture they live on, duality of feelings of not being french/muslim or portuguese/african.

4-Most of their families are disfunctional, unemployed, low income, drug abuse, alchool, etc, etc.

5-No future perspectives (the lower classes are the very first to feel the recession)

6-They work in group

7- they live in the suburbs

8- Society doesn't give them a chance to have a good job, where they could get decent income, because they are black/muslim. Society wants them to do the work that natives don't want to, and they(africans/muslims) now, don't want to do it either!! They feel that deserve more.



Peace
Crustas

[edit on 15-11-2005 by crustas]

Originally posted by crustas
Portugal,

It's a third world in some regions, mainly in the countryside
Reason: There are lot of uneducated, poor and old people who has no value for the government therefore the Gov. doesn't invest in there. People is left on their on. The fires during the summers, are a living proof of that.Those fires only makes people even more poor.

[edit on 15-11-2005 by crustas]

Well in that perspective the US is also a third world country in some regions. We all know that some regions in the richiest country in the world are as poor or even more poor that the poor regions of Portugal. And in the US there is much more unemployement than Portugal and social problems.

As for corruption...We have Italy. It's much worse than Portugal. And the US doesn't have corruption and lobbys?

Portugal have many problems...portuguese problems. Others countries have other problems. Third world country??Man.... Third world country is Angola where many thousand children die because they don't have anything to eat. Do you know the meaning of third world country??? Can anyone compare Portugal to Brazil, Angola, Kenia, Ruanda, Guine Bissau, etc...Even the poorest regions of Portugal are more rich than the richiest regions of the majority of countries in Africa.

The biggest problem of the portuguese is their lack of self-estime. Foor them everthing is bad, others countries are much better and this is the worse of the worse. And it as been like this for more than 850 years. We have problems but we are better in many things, but we only see the worse.


Se não formos nós portugueses a defender Portugal e ajudar a elevar a nossa imagem lá fora, quem é que fará?

Portugal is... actually, Portugal is a very ver nice place with low security, and friendly ppl - that's why it was the Spy-Center of the world in the WWII and that's why its still the best place for any foreign criminal or terrorist to hide, simply because we have nice weather, stupid laws that protect every single criminal, lack of security (if I wanted to bomb any gov building I would just... go there and do it hehe) and we are a very nice ppl that gets along with everyone.

I couldnt agree more, Portuguese people are the friendliest i have ever met in a country.

Thanks guys (caetano and crustus) your responses have been interesting and informative, your english is excellent, i wish my portuguese was that good.

Regards.

Originally posted by Caetano
Se não formos nós portugueses a defender Portugal e ajudar a elevar a nossa imagem lá fora, quem é que fará?

What i've wrote does not pretend to be biased nor it's personal, that are facts that i know and live with everyday.
But things are improving(slowly), i hope


Saudações tugas Caetano.

Peace
Crustas

We can't compare what happened in Portugal on the summer to what is happening at France today because of one thing: nothing happened at Portugal. Better, there were a small problem at the beach but nothing as big as 500 hundred gang members stealing people.
The case suffered from the bad journalism we have at TV's and newspapers. The tv's have distorted the facts using major sensacionalism and the news travelled to other countries.


But I think that in the future we can have similar problems. Like France we were a colonial power and the decolonization process wasn't a good one. We have today many 'guettos' at many cities that are constituted mainly by immigrants from our ex-colonies. Those who came first aren't the problem since they came here to work hard. The problem are their sons.

Wow... tantos portugueses

Well... as for Portugal's imigrant crisis (or second, third, forth I don't really care cause they're not portuguese for me) I think solution is:

Less ass-wiping by the gov.
Stop giving those ppl everything they want when they try to "blackmail" us with organized violence acts
And give the police enough powers to shoot those guys first and ask questions later. The police knows WHO they are, WHERE they live and still they're too affraid of goin in there... cause they can't really do anything. If they shoot one of them, all hell brakes lose, lefties start parading downtown, followed by all the other minorities that do anything they can to ruin this country and of course the media (also left-wingers) literally has their heads on a plate for the evening news.

Theres a lot of portuguese ppl in here, and they know that in Lisbon its not very safe to do anything lately. And its getting worse every year...

I do not complain bout situations that happened to myself, cause I drive mostly and I would have no problem of running over one o' those guys, but... ppl who work at night, and have to get the bus or train to get home, its pretty tough.

My gramma was on a train when like 50-80 black guys went in and start takin everybody's wallets... when the police arrived they mocked them!

The good thing is, 90% of them don't carry automatic rifles as they do in the U.S (but at least americans have the right to buy an M-16 or a Desert Eagle for personal protection)... but the time will come

To all the portuguese here, um forte abraço lusitano

Keep safe you all