Revelations - A literal Reading

I was reading revelations, and thought a literal take might be a bit more interesting. To me, revelations is a bit of an overkill and redundant; however, there is a timeline that a lot of christian groups seem to mix up.

Here is a list of things (in order) that I think we ought to see.

1. The lamb opens the sixth seal, and there is an earthquake, a lunar eclipse, and the stars can no longer be seen (dark skies?).(chapter 6)

2. People discover that every island and mountain was moved. (due to huge earthquake?) and then take refuge in caves/underground to hide. (chapter 7)

3. 144,000 virgin jewish men have a special seal put on their head. (chapter 8)

4. A comet/asteroid hits the earth. 1/3rd of the earth is burned. (chapter 8).

5. Another comet/asteroid hits the sea. 1/3rd of all boats and sea life are destroyed. (chapter 8)

6. 1/3rd of the world's water supply becomes poisoned. (chapter 8).

7. Daylight is shortened by 1/3rd. (Dust from Asteroids?). (chapter 8)

8. Another asteroid hits the earth, and it causes a volcano to form. From within the volcano, scorpion like insects with men's faces and fangs come and torture everyone but the 144,000. (chapter 9)

9. The horsemen then kill 1/3rd of all humans with an army of 200,000,000. (chapter 9).

"The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur"

To me, this sounds like a weird description of a large collection of tanks. What about you guys?

10. Two witnesses arrive on the scene that can do miracles for 1,024 days. Then the king of the evil scorpions kills them. They will not be buried for 3 and a half days (chapter 11).

11. When they die, there will be an earthquake that kills 7,000 people. (chapter 11)

It's not until after all of this that revelations starts talking about the beast.

I think we should look for this first, then talk about the "antichrist" don't you think? This all occurs before the beast is even born!

Why is there an obsession with the number 1/3?

(Random thought -- if you take the number 2/3 and divide it out, you get 0.666... Also, 2/3 is a fraction, one short of the Holy Trinity, and represents being incomplete, with something missing to make it whole...)

If multiple asteroids hit the Earth, I think that the end of the world as we know it would happen quickly, and permanantly...

Are the seven seals really suppose to represent the years of 2001-2007?

[edit on 14-11-2005 by Neon_Genesis]

We don't actually have a time frame for any of the seals. That is we don't know the length of all of them or how much time passes between them. I don't think you could gather that they take place during a 7 year time period. If anything they take place during the last 3.5 years of the final 7 years. It's my understanding that everything seems rather peaceful for the first bit. The antichrist will have everyone hoodwinked in to thinking that he's got things under control.

I don't think you can say that the antichrist isn't born utnil after the seals are finished. We know that he breaks his treaty after 3.5 years so he's at least 3.5 years old when this happens. Let's be serious. You're not going to have a 3.5 year old running the planet. He'll be in his 40's or 50's at my best guess.

I think we should look for this first, then talk about the "antichrist" don't you think? This all occurs before the beast is even born!

First:
Revelation doesn't cover the birth of the Antichrist.
The NWO/Beast System/Babylon is here; it is still occult..soon it will be overt. The Antichrist is about to be revealed.

Second:
Unless a man is born from above he can't see/understand/percieve the Kingdom of God.
You can not have revelation of the Word of God w/o the Holy Spirit.

Read Luke 3, John 3 & Acts 1-2
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Hi DBates:

I don't see the technical term AntiChrist anywhere in the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (aka Book of Revelation) do you? I see beasts and dragons and whores of Babylons and scorpions and locusts and hail and such, but no AntiChrist.

What text are you referring to here?

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
Hi DBates:

I don't see the technical term AntiChrist anywhere in the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (aka Book of Revelation) do you? I see beasts and dragons and whores of Babylons and scorpions and locusts and hail and such, but no AntiChrist.

What text are you referring to here?

try reading the book of Daniel

AND get the Holy Spirit
Read Luke 3, John 3 & Acts 1-2
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Hi Sea Water:

I do not find the term AntiChrist in the Book of Revelation (Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite, whoever he was) in the New Testament.

Neither do I find the term in any copy of the Book of Daniel, or even the Aramaic additions to the Book of Daniel found at Qumran either.

Which part (exactly) of the Scroll of the Book of Daniel are you refering that specifically mentions the term "AntiChrist" (or Anti-Meshiaq)?

Are you refering to some part of the Hebrew sections (Chapter 1:1 to 2:3, and also chapter 8 through chapter 12) or the later Aramaic sections (chapter 2:4 to 7:28)?

Neither the Hebrew sections or the later Aramaic sections seem to refer to the technical term AntiChrist that we find in the Greek epistles of Yohanon the Elder (1 John and 2 John), so what text copy of Daniel are you referring to exactly?

There is also no mention of the term in the Dead Sea Scroll copies of any known Daniel fragments that mention the term, "AntiChrist"---so please provide chapter and verse of what section of the Hebrew/Aramaic text you are referring to here.

Unless it's just all in your head.

And as for the "Holy Spirit" that you want me to get, are you referring to the Holy Spirit of Ohrmzad (Ahura Mazda) that was spoken of in the Gathas of Zoroaster in the proto Iranian religion?

Or are you referring to the much later Judeo-Christian borrowing of that term that was introduced into Judaea during that formative period after the Persians conquored Palestine (BC 531 to BC 331) and before the Greeks took over the helm of occupation?

Try to be more precise....

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
Hi DBates:

I don't see the technical term AntiChrist anywhere in the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (aka Book of Revelation) do you? I see beasts and dragons and whores of Babylons and scorpions and locusts and hail and such, but no AntiChrist.

What text are you referring to here?

Usually referred to as "The Beast" in Revelation. The only reference to the actual words "Anti Christ" are found in First and Second John.

1 John 2:18-19
1 John 2:22-23
1 John 4:2-3
2 John 1:7

Of course we can thank Daniel the prophet for helping to tie this all together for us. He never used the word "AntiChrist". To him it was the Little Horn, The "king of fierce countenance", and "the prince that shall come" and also the good ole term beast. Same guy, different names. Actually his name is probably Joe or Tom or Javier, but AntiChrist works. It fits him.

The four horsemen of the apocalypse are described in Revelation chapter 6, verse 1-8. The four horsemen are symbolic descriptions of different events which will take place in the end times. The first horseman of the apocalypse is mentioned in Revelation 6:2, "I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest." This first horseman likely refers to the antichrist, who will be given authority and will conquer all who oppose him. The antichrist is the false imitator of the true Christ, as He will return on a white horse (Revelation 19:11-16).

The second horseman of the apocalypse is spoken of in Revelation 6:4, "Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword." The second horseman refers to terrible warfare that will break out in the end times. The third horseman is described in Revelation 6:5-6, "...and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" The third horseman of the apocalypse refers to a great famine that will take place, likely as a result of the wars from the second horseman. Food will be scarce, but luxuries such as wine and oil will still be readily available.

Then there is the final horseman!!!

The fourth horseman is mentioned in Revelation 6:8, "I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth." The fourth horseman of the apocalypse is symbolic of death and devastation. It seems to be a combination of the previous horsemen. The fourth horseman of the apocalypse will bring further warfare and terrible famines along with awful plagues and diseases. What is most amazing, or perhaps terrifying, is that the four horsemen of the apocalypse are just "precursors" of even worse judgments that come later in the Tribulation (Revelation chapters 8-9 and 16).

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Hi Standpord:

I think the source for your 4 horses is Zechariah chapter 6 (which relates the theme of divine judgement of the land of Israel with the Nazir or "Branch" who will rebuild the Temple of YHWH in Jerusalem which the Babylonians ground to powder in 587 BC


ZECHARIAH CHAPTER 6:

1 "And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains;

and lo, the mountains were mountains of brass.

2In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

3And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

4Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, o lord?

5And the angel answered and said unto me,

These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the faces of YHWH of all the land:.

6The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.

7And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.

8Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.

9And the word of YHWH came unto me, saying,

10Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;

11Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Yeshua ben YoZedek the high priest;

12And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh YHWH of armies, saying, Behold the man whose name is haAZIR: (lit. The BRANCH i.e. of David) and he shall grow up away from his place, but it is he who shall re-build the temple of YHWH:

13 Yea, it is even he shall build the temple of YHWH;

And he shall bear the glory,
and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
and there shall also be a Priest set upon his throne:
and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. "

Presumably this is the mirashic source text that lay behind the vision ascribed to Yohanon the Levite in his Apocalypse or Book of Revelation (whoever Yohanon/John was) and BEHOLD THE MAN who is called the NAZIR is the source behind Pilate's Sneer in the Gospel of John's crucifixion/passion narrative (crown of thorns scene in front of the crowds).

Certainly the many Greek gramattical howlers in the Book of Revelation from chapter 4 onwards following the letters to the 7 Churches in Asia are so egregious that it could not possibly come from the same Greek hand who penned the gospel of "John" (whoever he was) or even the 3 epistles of Yohanon the Elder (whoever he was).

Originally posted by radardog

--> I was reading revelations, and thought a literal take might be a bit more interesting.

Your problem is that you are reading Revelation (notice, it has no s at the end) as if it were an entertainment book and as if it was written in chronological order. This isn't the case with Revelation.

Like wiht most prophecy that turns out to be true, we really can't a handle on it until after the events occur. Then we can look back and see that the predictions were true. If we are very, very lucky we might realize we have the predictions as the events unfold.

My question is, if we know what will happen (assuming the prophecy is true), can we change what will happen?

Just a thought as I read this thread........

Could "Antichrist" rather than being The Devil, Satan or however you want to describe him (or her ) not be a mere mortal who does not excatly believe in that partaicular way of thinking ie Christianity?.

Oh and the asteroids could obviously be missiles, as explained many times by those trying to understand this rewritten, re translated, rehashed, ummmmmm.... little book

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Your problem is that you are reading Revelation (notice, it has no s at the end) as if it were an entertainment book and as if it was written in chronological order. This isn't the case with Revelation.

On the contrary, the book revelation contains a series of revelations (i.e. predictions) given to john through images and angel guides. John's visions, if read accurately occur mostly in order. It's a mistake to rearrange everything, imo, just so that a given interpretation of the bible will align to another person's ideals. The trumpet lead plagues come very obviously before the beast (in revelation) aka the antichrist (in john), and it's very obvious that at least two individuals that can and will do miracles (and at the same time not being satan) will appear to lead people to the correct church. They will do this for about 3 years, then will be killed by Abaddon and his lackies (although, some scholars consider Abaddon and Satan as the same entities).

Case in point, the angel guides John to the only point in revelation that is specifically supposed to be metaphorical (dragon heads, etc.) Any other metaphorical renderings ought to be considered extrabiblical.

Originally posted by radardog
1. The lamb opens the sixth seal, and there is an earthquake, a lunar eclipse, and the stars can no longer be seen (dark skies?).(chapter 6)

REV. 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


I believe this is a reference to an "alien" invasion upon the earth. The same word for stars in Rev.12:4 is the same word for stars used in REV. 6:13. It is obvious that the REV 12 verse is talking about the angels that followed satan, so I beleive that is what they are in Rev 6.



REV. 12:3-4And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


I believe REV. 9 is talking about a severe demonic invasion of the earth. I don't know whether that will be perceived as another "alien" invasion or whether it will be known to be an attack of spiritual proportions.

REV9:1-11
[1] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
[2] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
[3] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
[4] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
[5] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
[6] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
[7] And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
[8] And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
[9] And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
[10] And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
[11] And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit,