Physics Prof Says Bombs not Planes brought down wtc

Originally posted by LeftBehind
So you only see the spikes when you enlarge the image?

x.x



This is a serious question: do you even try to understand what you're responding to, before responding to it?

The images had different sensitivities. LL just explained this in the post before, but what the hell. Couldn't hurt. LL didn't mess them up, he fixed them, so that they had the same sensitivities. Somebody from your "side" messed them up to start.

Originally posted by LaBTop
If you convert the 2 charts of WTC 1 and 2 to the same sensitivity of 0-10 nm/s, instead of the offered by LDEO sensitivity of 10-100 nm/s, you will see that suddenly these 2 charts have collapse-preceeding peaks exactly as high as in the WTC 7 chart.

Thus, LL's post.

Originally posted by Long Lance
i dunno wether to laugh or cry..

It's been posts like this for a while now. Where have all the intelligent opponents gone?

Originally posted by LeftBehind
Wow, Longlance way to vent some steam there.



If you actually had read the thread you will see that I was questioning the amount of energy in tons of tnt. Or do you believe that the KE of WTC2 is 2.7 tons of tnt?


So do you have any proof of said "thermo charges" or are you just speculating. I thought that WTC was brought down with regular demo charges. How would "thermo charges" operating quietly show up on the seismic record?

..

no, but then most of the KE was used to shred the building, propel some dust here and there and whatnot, the seismic wave energy we're talking about is usually given on a logarithmic scale, eg. Richter's, where the next level is 100 times as strong as the former...

so, these people KNEW that giving these readings -2.1 and 2.3 would look like basically the same to most and tried to come up with something mirroring energy expenditure - something easily understood - explosives! so, how much explosives do you need to create an equivalent seismic shock? according to them 2.7 and 1.4 respectively. that's quite quite a discrepancy, isn't it? saying that KE was simply more efficiently converted into seismic wave energy would have to be explained.

as both towers were very similar....


wtc7.. well, i think there are few ways to gradually damage (see signs of collapse) a building, especially noiselessly, blowing one cutting charge after the other would look similar but create more noise. in other words, thermocharges will do that, i never said they did do it, but it's not that relevant, IF we agree that you need a fuel capable of reaching 2000C+ to melt steel - and molten steel was found, so, citing heat fatigue is not enough.

I was pointing out that the collapse is happening inside the building before it collapsed completely. While the building fell in less than 7 seconds, the actual collapse was taking place for longer than 7 seconds. That's why you see the penthouse collapse first

the problem is that the entire sequence is too long. ie. things happend according to the seismograph, long before anything was visible.

PS: i clearly described WHAT i did to that data, and why, i am sorry if you don't get my drift.

do you agree with me that collapse 1&2 were shown on a different scale, compared to wtc7?

www.ldeo.columbia.edu...

www.ldeo.columbia.edu...

the legend (on the right side) shows 0... 10.0 and 0...100.0, respectively, to show the graph's sensitivity, can you see that? i merely changed the scale to wtc7's graph's.

if you consider that dishonesty, i dunno what to say.


Mirthful Me

rgr, thumbnails from now on.

[edit on 26-11-2005 by Long Lance]

Regarding the penthouses falling first, the columns under the penthouse, specifically on the Eastern half of the building, were built up and strengthened over the course of the building's lifetime for various reasons. I have the NIST documentation to show this. That is likely why the East penthouse fell first as the central columns under it were melted by thermite - the first required step in the demolition sequence. Then the West penthouse and the core sunk as all the central columns were destroyed. Finally the building went into total collapse as the remaining supports were destroyed.

Here, you can see the largest concentration of thermite-byproduct molten metal is indeed at the Eastern side of the building (hot spot A), exactly where those strengthened columns were:





[edit on 2005-11-26 by wecomeinpeace]

how this US propaganda machine works.
They aim their poisonous bowl of disinformation at a gross mean of a bit more than 50 % of their population, by bombarding the whole population with totally wrong, distorted science, propagated by docile greedy "scientists" who do everything to please their masters, the fund raisers for their faculties, which are the immensely powerfull military-industrial-complex conglomerates, the pharmaceutical companies, and their lackeys, the army of legal advisers.
The blatant distortion of facts, the mudding of the scientific waters, the ferocious personal attacks on enlightened colleagues, the criminal withholding of facts and evidence, the murder of my colleagues, that long list of biochemists who all got murdered, the list is too long to mention here.
There is no free research anymore, every research thesis has to be acknowledged by moneymakers, not peer reviewers anymore. Your universities are operated by accountants, not professors with an open mind on an endless quest for true knowledge.
You have become an impotent society. You have effectively killed free research, by introducing a killer virus, free enterprise.
True research can not be bought, and then strangled by greed.

You made factories from your faculties!
When will you ever learn ?

Long Lance, I am truely gratefull to you, at last, after many months of explaining and begging for someone to post those equalized seismic graphs, you did it !
And even better, you really took the time to read all my posts on the seismic subject, and understood it completely.

Wecomeinpeace, to me, all this time, it was completely unclear why the hotspot in WTC 7 was at such an odd position, but now, after your remark, it becomes crystal clear.
Again, if those columns nr 78 to 83 would have buckled and broke by fire, the whole damn building would have been dragged to the south facade, and toppled over to the south, ending up spread all over the collapsed remnants of WTC 6.
Because those collumns were connected by diagonal beams to the rest of the construction. And were specially reinforced, much stronger then the rest of the building. Just as Wcip said.

I just listened to the last podcast from the 2 Amigo's,
www.podtrac.com...
about WTC 7 and prof Jones, and heard that the admins of this site were in fact only impressed by one remark of Prof Jones, the pools of molten steel in all 3 towers, after collapse.
What amazes me, is the fact that we for weeks now hammer on the fact that that can only be caused by thermite reactions, to melt the core collumns, followed by shifting charges exploded +/- 1 meter higher up on those collumns. I get the impression that these 2 did not have the time to read their own forums, while in fact you only have to concentrate on the longer threads, for sure you will find the most interesting finds in there.
One of them mentions, that he doesn't see where mr Silverstein got his profit from, since the insurance will only free the money to rebuild the premisses of the WTC complex.
Well, what about the interest on 7 billion dollars for 4 years?
And, the city of New York is pretty busy with trying to get the real estate back from him. What do you think will happen then? They will have to compensate him.
But he's just a tool, needed but not important anymore.

Secondly, you have to follow the money, they said.
Guess what, where the money is? In the Pentagon coffers, they LOST 7.3 TRILLION dollar in the last 7 years, unaccounted for.
And the accountants who were trying to unearth that crazy sum, were all effectively killed in the attack on the Pentagon. The last press release from the Pentagon stated that they could not proceed with that investigation anymore, because all personnel who COULD HAVE solved the case, were all killed in the C-ring of the Pentagon. You smell the same stink as I do ? No backups?
Furthermore, all files of the IRS on ENRON, Compu World etc were incinnerated in WTC 7. How about that for money not to be recuperated anymore? And all the Secret Service files in WTC 7 ? Just have a look online at ALL the files of multiple important investigations by the GOVERNMENT which have been lost at 9/11 in those THREE towers. Billions of dollars, if not Trillions. And they had NO BACKUPS. I can't breath anymore from the stink bubbling up around the whole 9/11 subject.
Your administration has worked for years, to get this thing done, and you ask why and how they placed explosives in those buildings?
To me its crystal clear.
Just look at the endless list of LIES they presented at the UN, to get you all fouling your pants about a possible ABC attack on your precious country by Saddam Hussein or that mysterious guy they manage to still not find in those holes in Afghanistan. While several governments offered him on a silver platter before 9/11, the Taliban and the Soudanese. They rejected that offer, and now he's enemy of the state nr 1 ? Any idea why? They needed a patsy, and a boogieman.

It's time you get your sanity and guts back, and reclaim your country.
And reshape your political landscape.

I have a file somewhere, about a photographer who was accredited to a special team from the WTC owners, who had secret meetings on a floor of one of the towers, before 9/11. The engineers in that meeting thought he was one of them, after having asked him from what firm he came, he did not say he was just a photographer who was asked to make pictures of the two towers. He tells what these people were talking about, and that was very suspicious, they said f.ex. that WTC 7 was the building which should have never been build, because of it's mis-engineered proportions.
He got so scared of what these engineers were talking about, that he left the room to never come back.
I'll locate that file, and post it as soon as I find it.

That same site where the original explosions sound file came from, the one from Denmark, also has a page with photo's of the tower collapses, with clocks in churches and buildings in them.
Guess what? They are all minutes off from the "official" collapse times !
And what does that proof?
That the whole seismic chart starting times story is also balony.
Those charts are spread over no more than 30 to 40 seconds.
When the real collapse times were minutes later, they have effectively masqueraded and falsified the preceeding events in those charts, since they occured on very different times.
So you can't compare real time events in New York with their 17 seconds delayed recorded seismic events in Pallisades, 34 km to the north.


Now I offer you an eyeopener on the real global rulers of this world :

Occupied America: A Chronology of Nazi Infiltration

After World War II, our intelligence community turned its attention to the Soviet Union. They sought to use former Nazi intelligence agents as well as other Nazis against the Russians. By 1955, over 10 thousand former Nazis,
many of them war criminals, were brought into the United States and put
into our Central Intelligence Agency. They brought their hatred, their
inhuman experiments and their willingness to subjugate all for the greater
good of National Socialism. With the help of America's right wing, they
became entrenched. Their policies still rule America today.

It is proven beyond any doubt, that the Bush family had strong ties to the Nazi's in Germany, before and during WW II, and also after.
Much too much of your present political leaders have proven bloodlines to German and Austrian Nazi's in WW II.

Believe me, I have personal experience with Nazi's, and these rats never change! And they ALL educate their offspring with the same delusional "ideals".
To me, it is quite clear that your country has been defeated today by the ideology of these long dead Nazi's. They have succeeded in planting their offspring and their followers in your Administration, and are in the last stages of the process of Nazifying your once great country.

And that's why I will do everything I can to wake you up,

BECAUSE WE WILL BE NEXT !

Below is a link to an interview with Sgt. Mathew Tartaglia, a decorated rescue worker who worked in the rescue and recovery operations of the WTC collapses.

download.alciada.net...

He talks about, among other things:

* The secret service was all over the site.
* Specific areas of the site were restricted, and those entering without permission were arrested. The most restricted sites were the underground basements of all the buildings, surrounding buildings included.
* All of the plane black boxes were found intact and confiscated by the FBI.
* Anyone taking a photograph was literally tackled to the ground, had their camera confiscated, and was either arrested or banned from the site. Only those whom FEMA could control were allowed to take pictures and footage.
* WTC7 took minor damage.
* Half of the emergency personnel KNOW that it was a total inside job. Some have packed up their families and left the country.
* Emergency personnel who look like they are going to speak out are paid off or promoted. Those who won't shut up are threatened.
* Many rescue workers have died or are dying from the asbestos and heavy metals in computer monitors. The government is ignoring them.
* There was indeed molten metal at the site.

...and much more.

[edit on 2005-11-26 by wecomeinpeace]

www.terrorize.dk...

Check this site. Many many great videos and pictures. They should help a lot.

[edit on 27-11-2005 by STolarZ]

Originally posted by Long Lance
[so, these people KNEW that giving these readings -2.1 and 2.3 would look like basically the same to most and tried to come up with something mirroring energy expenditure - something easily understood - explosives! so, how much explosives do you need to create an equivalent seismic shock? according to them 2.7 and 1.4 respectively. that's quite quite a discrepancy, isn't it? saying that KE was simply more efficiently converted into seismic wave energy would have to be explained.

as both towers were very similar....

Both towers were very similar, but the amount of floors above the planes crashes were different. Both collapses were different. Once again let's look at what a proffesional geophysicist has to say about the seismic data.

www.globalsecurity.org...

Geophysicists have already contributed critical data to terrorist investigations. It was geologists who determined there were no secondary explosions at the base of the World Trade Center towers — but only the impact of the airplanes and subsequent fires — that contributed to the towers' collapse on Sept. 11.

Do you have any links to geophysicists who disagree? Or are you blindly believing conspiracy sites?

Let's take a closer look at your mysterious "pre-event".




If it peaks at 2.7 tons of TNT what does your "pre-event" equal, a car crash? 0.3 tons of TNT? Explosives would have looked much bigger than those. Which is why geophysicist's say that the seismic record proves the absence of explosives.


So, does anyone have a good explanation for how they smuggled in wireless explosives and thermite? Or will all of you keep ignoring the biggest hole in your theory.

Here's something I thought you might all find interesting. It's the trasncript from an interview well known Conspiracy Theorist Alex Jones did with Proffesor Jones, where he answers some questions about his article. Definitely worth the read.

www.prisonplanet.com...

Also, LeftBehind, we've already asnwered your question about when were the bombs placed. We've sited numerous sources that stated the building was closed down repeatedly for "repairs" during the week prior to 9/11, which is more than ample time to place some bombs.

SOmething I think you are forgetting is that this was all done before mass paranioa set in amongst the American people. So, for example, if someone dressed as a repairman places a large crate in my office building today, then people would probably report it as something odd and that needed to be looked into, but if that had happened prior to 9/11, no one would have batted an eye, because we were all living in the ignorant comfort of Pax Americana. So I don't think it's unreasonably to suggest the bombs were placed at some point prior to the attack under the guise of repairs.

Another interesting point that is often overlooked is that the Bomb Sniffing Dogs were removed from the WTC days before the attack.

This is a quote from Newsday:

Heightened Security Alert Had Just Been Lifted
By Curtis L. Taylor and Sean Gardiner
STAFF WRITERS

September 12, 2001

The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday.

Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

"Today was the first day there was not the extra security," Coard said. "We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn't figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that."

Security guard Hermina Jones said officials had recently taken steps to secure the towers against aerial attacks by installing bulletproof windows and fireproof doors in the 22nd-floor computer command center...

www.prisonplanet.com...

Mod Edit: Added Quote Tags.

[edit on 27/11/2005 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by LeftBehind

Both towers were very similar, but the amount of floors above the planes crashes were different. Both collapses were different. Once again let's look at what a proffesional geophysicist has to say about the seismic data.




Let's take a closer look at your mysterious "pre-event".

...

If it peaks at 2.7 tons of TNT what does your "pre-event" equal, a car crash? 0.3 tons of TNT? Explosives would have looked much bigger than those. Which is why geophysicist's say that the seismic record proves the absence of explosives.

..

i will mainly adress your concern about these pre-events, the rest was already answered i think.

ok, the guy who came up with the 'tons of TNT' analogy probably found it strange that collapsing two basically identical buildings is supposed to result in vastly different (factor ~2) seismic readings.

that is imho, a valid concern, but if you feel that hit location plays such an important role, i will not try to convince you of the opposite.

---

now the real issue:

look at wtc7's graph, there's a diamond-shaped (think with varying flanks) reading in the middle of the graph, now look at wtc2's, you will see a less pronounced slower version which also exhibits a longer drop time (granularity of the devices used ??), but they are essentially very similar in that these peaks appear before the collapse and return to normal (noise) before the final collapse (big series of peaks in the case of #1,2, a lot smaller for #7, due to size&weight diferences).

so, the final question, now that all graphs show the same sensitivity:

why are these precursor events roughly of the same magnitude and why do they stop shortly before the real collapse?

If things like this can happen to buildings due to poor workmanship, then is it not possible for something similar to happen to a building which has suffered severe damage?

en.wikipedia.org...

ourstory.asia1.com.sg...



[edit on 27-11-2005 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by AgentSmith
If things like this can happen to buildings due to poor workmanship, then is it not possible for something similar to happen to a building which has suffered severe damage?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

ourstory.asia1.com.sg...

umm, i don't understand the purpose of the first link, but the second, well, shoddy construction would certainly facilitate collapse, but that doesn't explain the (obvious in the case of #1,7 less so with #1) graphs' gaps,and #7's high precursor magnitude, does it?

Sorry must have had the wrong link in the clipboard at the time, I've corrected it now!

Apologies for the diversion, it wasn't really relevent to the way the discussion was going specifically, but it was something I saw on the TV at the time and I thought it was relevent to the whole theory, as this seems to be the going thread on WTC collapses I simply added it to this one. Probably not the best way to do it but wanted to do it before I forgot, not a shining example of board etiquette I know.

[edit on 27-11-2005 by AgentSmith]

You are really hanging in the back of the peleton. (pun intended, smile)

I already posted a long review of Professor Terry Wallace's interviews. I also stated, that he seems to admit to the official view, while he got tricked himself by the same officials, without him noticing.
Back in ' 93 or ' 94, he and the others of his freshly started forensic seismologist group were asked to do a survey on the Oklahoma bombing, and concluded on seeing the seismic charts of the following demolition of the still standing part of the building, that there was only ONE bomb used, while it looked first as 2 bombs on the actual bombing chart.
However, the problem was, that the Pentagon had already done a secret investigation on that bombing, and their scientists concluded that FIVE freaking bombs were used, and not ONE. And that they had a middle eastern signature. That report came in the open 5 years later. (see my post)
So, which scientists are you gonna believe this time?
I said, that it looks pretty obvious, that Prof Wallace pleased his masters.
Most scientists in the USA know by now, that it is very unhealthy for their carreers, to come up with a disagreeing point of view, opposite of the funders, in casu here, the Administrations and the Army view.
His faculty website is now the ONLY one unaccessible to guests, all the others are public.
Just do a search for Wallace and LaBTop.

Do not blindly believe in the findings of scientists as the Holy Grail of knowledge, these people are just as you and me, fallible, and most of them are greedy, or cowardly afraid for their reputation, or a combination of both.

Same story btw for postings ad infinitum, all those links from structural engineers, by you (not sure?) and Muaddib (Politics thread with same name), about the pancaking theory from the days after 9/11.
It's a laughing stock of links, since their theory explained in all these links have now been debunked by their own colleagues for the third time.
First the 9/11 commission, then the FEMA report, and now the NIST report.
Every time a new theory, debunking the last "official" theory. It's nearing idiotery.

Let's take a closer look at your mysterious "pre-event".

It's not his, it's mine, and you knew that very well. He just accepts my theory, you don't. No problem with that btw.
Let's wait and see who fights in the corner which turns out to be right.

If it peaks at 2.7 tons of TNT what does your "pre-event" equal, a car crash? 0.3 tons of TNT? Explosives would have looked much bigger than those.

You seemed to have missed the remarks of Prof Wallace in my posted link, where he explained that the FIRST bombing in the basement of the WTC tower did not register on their seismographs, while it was a substantial amount of about 3.4 metric tons of TNT worth, since the explosives were not attached to the bedrock or the collumns of the tower, they were left behind in a van, so on wheels, and meters away from columns or walls.
So much for your "theory".

Which is why geophysicist's say that the seismic record proves the absence of explosives.

You see, your beloved scientists contradict themself in public. (see above non-existence of seismic proof of a 3.4 ton explosion 34 km away from their seismic station)
So much also for those "trustable" scientific sources.
Your US scientist are making a farce of themself in the last decade, at least the ones docile following the mainstream.
Cowards, that's the only decent description I can come up with, for them.
And a lot of it is boardering criminal content.

So, does anyone have a good explanation for how they smuggled in wireless explosives and thermite? Or will all of you keep ignoring the biggest hole in your theory.

Again, you are left behind, I posted already in the Politics thread with the same name, 5 links to a military expert from Finland, who will explain it to you in detail. Do a site search again.
And if you insist on it, I can add a few more. (just a bit of help so you can rebute again, smile)

see for yourselves:

original source for pics: nineeleven2001.t35.com...

let me get this straight, i am merely interested in the pics, not overall site content


i'd like to point out that there's something that immediately popped up in my mind: www.fas.org...


any comments? i know we're basically past the stage of investigating the planes, but i found that rather peculiar.


edited due to careless use of return

[edit on 29-11-2005 by Long Lance]

Any possible plane-related sources aside for now, I'd say that thing looks pretty similar to a squib, LL. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Just an observation.

A portion of the fuselage passed completely through the tower and landed on a nearby roof.

I would say that was parts of the plane mixed in with debris from the office.

Look at the source page, Howard. Whatever that is, it doesn't move laterally from one frame to another, but expands like some sort of cloud.

Look closely at the object in question in the three images along the right side here:
nineeleven2001.t35.com...

Thanks for the vids WCIP...

I have a question...

Is this what you are calling the core?



Looks like a section of the outer wall to me...

Which brings up another question...

If in the bomb theory, the building is brought down all at once, how is this outer wall still standing?

This to me would show the pancake theory, where the rivets that heald the floors gave way and the floors collapsed to be true...

That's not a BLU-96 or any other type of FAE. I can't tell what it is, but there's no way that's any sort of FAE. Even a small FAE would have decimated the building, and blown it apart immediately. They've developed Thermobaric charges, which are smaller versions of the BLU devices, however they were developed for use against hardened targets, such as bunkers. A building such as the WTC that wasn't hardened would almost definately have suffered a catastrophic failure immediately, or at the very least a MUCH larger edplosive footprint.

Fuel-Air Explosives [FAE] disperse an aerosol cloud of fuel which is ignited by an embedded detonator to produce an explosion. The rapidly expanding wave front due to overpressure flattens all objects within close proximity of the epicenter of the aerosol fuel cloud, and produces debilitating damage well beyond the flattened area. The main destructive force of FAE is high overpressure, useful against soft targets such as minefields, armored vehicles, aircraft parked in the open, and bunkers.

The blast effects from vapor cloud explosions are determined not only by the amount of fuel, but more importantly by the combustion mode of the cloud. Significant overpressures can be generated by both detonations and deflagrations. Most vapor cloud explosions are deflagrations, not detonations. Flame speed of a deflagration is subsonic, with flame speed increasing in restricted areas and decreasing in open areas. Significantly, a detonation is supersonic, and will proceed through almost all of the available flammable vapor at the detonation reaction rate. This creates far more severe peak over-pressures and much higher amounts of blast energy. The speed of the flame front movement is directly proportional to the amount of blast over-pressure. A wide spectrum of flame speeds may result from flame acceleration under various conditions. High flame front speeds and resulting high blast over pressures are seen in accidental vapor cloud explosions where there is a significant amount of confinement and congestion that limits flame front expansion and increases flame turbulence. These conditions are evidently more difficult to achieve in the unconfined environment in which military fuel-air explosives are intended to operate.
www.fas.org...

There's also a great animation of an FAE going off on that page.