Creationism on an atomic level

Everything - us, earth, air - is made of atoms. Atoms do not evolve. Destroying one creates a lot of energy. Creating one is impossible for us. You cannot pluck an electron out or add one to make it different. Atoms do not multiply.

Cells multiply. Cells multiplying is growth, both for animals and plants. Cells, of course, are made of atoms. As cells grow and mutiply, where are these new atoms coming from?

I am not saying that this is proof of creation, I am just seeing if there is a logical explanation for this. If there is not, it could become [additional] proof or at least [additional] evidence.

Woops - is it considered being biased when I add the [additional] brakets in there. Bad godservant!

Some of the minds on this board often catch my good ear.




[edit on 11-11-2005 by godservant]

Most biological processes are effect by combining atoms into different molecules. Molecules can split naturally. There are natural processes that can combine molecules, change molecules, and seperate molecules back into atoms.

Also I hesitate to say that an evolution of an atom would reflect back on this subject. Since you have one refering to physics and the other refering to a biological process. Almost like two definitions to the same word.

The basic of all atoms is hydrogen. Its from combining hydrogen in stars that atoms up to Iron (Fe) is made. The resulting colisions in a supernova is what produces the other naturally occuring atoms. Then you have radioactive decay which is the transformation from one atom to another. So this might be able to be classified as the "evolution" of an atom. However I don't see how it has any effect on evolutionary processes in biological entities.



[edit on 11-11-2005 by silentlonewolf]

Originally posted by silentlonewolf
However I don't see how it has any effect on evolutionary processes in biological entities.

Because evolutionist say that something cannot come from nothing. Creationist say it can. If molecules split and grow, and molecules are made of atoms, like everything is, where are these new atoms coming from?

Say a molecule is made up of 1 billion atoms. It splits into 2 and grows to the same size as it was originally - thats now 2 billion atoms. Where did they come from?

Originally posted by godservant
As cells grow and mutiply, where are these new atoms coming from?

From digestion of nutrients.

If molecules split and grow, and molecules are made of atoms, like everything is, where are these new atoms coming from?

The bonds between atoms, which are for the most part dependant upon the characteristics of electrons ('valence' electrons, electrons in the 'outer most' 'shell' (keeping in mind that this isn't precisely what is going on, there aren't strictly speaking, orderly pretty shells, etc)). When a molecular bond is 'broken', nothing is actually detroyed, the electron-ic interactions are just 'focused' elsewhere, lets say.



[edit on 11-11-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by godservant

Originally posted by silentlonewolf
However I don't see how it has any effect on evolutionary processes in biological entities.

Because evolutionist say that something cannot come from nothing. Creationist say it can. If molecules split and grow, and molecules are made of atoms, like everything is, where are these new atoms coming from?

One more time:
Evolution is "how life forms change over time. It has nothing to do with how life began.

Evolutionists only talk about how one type of creature changes into a different type of creature... how primitive crocodiles changed into modern crocodiles or how tiny eohippus changed into the modern horse.

They do not have any opinion about where the atoms for a horse came from.

Does that make things a little clearer?



To learn about how different elements are formed from Helium (yes, we know that and have good data), you need to read up on astronomy and not biology or evolution.

Originally posted by godservantCells multiply. Cells multiplying is growth, both for animals and plants. Cells, of course, are made of atoms. As cells grow and mutiply, where are these new atoms coming from?

like Nygdan said, the digestion of nutrients...basically just reconfiguring existing atoms and incorperating them into its structure. it wouldn't just "create" atoms out of nowhere if thats what you mean.

[edit on 12-11-2005 by Urn]

I do understand about the evolving of life. I thought evolutionists thought life evolved from a single cell.

How does it work? A tree, for example, has atoms specific to wood among others. Where do these wood atoms come from if you can't modify existing atoms nor create new ones? Simply, where do the atoms that make up wood come from? How could it pull it from the ground when the ground is without wood?

I don't know much about how atoms work, and I can very well be proven wrong here. I am merely inquiring.

I once thought and read about a theory that the universe IS an atom. That idea can trigger a lot of crazy ideas.

If this were true and it seems like you might be thinking this yourself, then I would have to guess or theororize that every form of a seed would create new atoms since it is bringing together new life.

This is a far out, complex idea and it could even bring to thought why the atom bomb would be so dangerous.

I've only found a few links on this idea if anyone knows any others please post.

Universe in an Atom
The Universe in a Single Atom : The Convergence of Science and SpiritualityThe Universe Inside the Atom

Originally posted by godservant
How does it work? A tree, for example, has atoms specific to wood among others. Where do these wood atoms come from if you can't modify existing atoms nor create new ones? Simply, where do the atoms that make up wood come from? How could it pull it from the ground when the ground is without wood?

I don't know much about how atoms work, and I can very well be proven wrong here. I am merely inquiring.

Wood doesn't arise from nothing, and it's not a spontaneous creation of atoms. This is not rearrangement of atoms. Physics rearranges atom; biology rearranges electrons and other molecular, not atomic structures. There's no such thing as wood atoms. There's no such thing as wood molecules. Wood is a mixture of component molecules. You can't break wood down into a single simple unit. Wood and other products of primary production are the result of natural processes entirely. Perhaps you learned about the carbon cycle at some point in your life?

Either way... wood comes from a variety of things cellulose, lignins, etc. We'll discuss cellulose whose structure and synthesis I am most familiar with.

Cellulose is basically sugar molecules arranged in such away as to make them unavailable for digestion and subsequent metabolism by organisms like us. Sugar molecules are one of the primary products of a process called photosynthesis. Photosynthesis creates sugar molecules via the reduction (believe it or not in this case, reduction means adding something) of Carbon Dioxide. Photosynthesis provides the energy that creates sugar molecules from CO2 and Water. The sugar molecules are then arranged around the plant cell to create a rigid structure known as cell wall. These cell walls, and other specialized apparatus including the xylem and phloem are also ususally constructed of cellulose.

You can see the reverse reaction everytime you eat sugar and exhale carbon dioxide. In this case what you're doing is oxidizing sugar molecules back down to CO2 and H2O, in the process harnessing the energy released via the breaking of chemical bonds. Same thing when you burn wood. You're releasing the CO2 that the plant collected over the years back into the atmosphere... hence the description Carbon Cycle. This is why plants need water. Yes, it's true plants don't extract wood from the ground... but did you consider why plants die when you don't water them? Wood is a mixture assembled by woody plants via the synergistic coupling of multiple anabolic processes.

It's not magic... It's science that's been worked out and well known for decades.

Originally posted by godservant
How could it pull it from the ground when the ground is without wood?

A tree is a living thing that has the ability to tap into the organic compounds (which merely means compounds with carbon), take them into themselves, and process them in to wood, bark, leaves, buds, etc.

I don't know much about how atoms work, and I can very well be proven wrong here. I am merely inquiring.

Here's a nice little bit about
Atoms in general
Atoms make up Molecules
Molecular Bonds
Digestion in Humans

Essentially, the world is made up of atoms, elements. These elements are neither created nor destroyed (essentially, for our purposes anyway). Atoms bind to other atoms, this forms molecules, even very complex ones. These molecules can have functions; one molecule might tend to, upon contacting another molecule, break it up into bits, or tend to cause individual elements to bind to one another to make other molecules. Organisms, made up of lots of molecules, have to constantly replace those molecules, they do this by going out into the world and eating other organisms, breaking those organisms molecules down to very simple components, and then rebuilding, from those components, their 'worn out' parts of themselves.