Was paul bad for jesus??

i think that paul did more than anyone to distort the teachings of jesus.
He even admitted to lying and deceit


* Corinthians 9:20-22: To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law -- though not being myself under the law -- that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak.

* Romans 3:7: If through my lies God’s truth abounds to His glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?

* Philippians 1:18: In every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Jesus is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.


can anybody explain these comments??


[edit on 8-11-2005 by scienceguy94]

Originally posted by scienceguy94
i think that paul did more than anyone to distort the teachings of jesus.

It's awfully unfair to lay the mass distortion of scripture upon Paul's head--when it is mankind's, in general, to bear. Christianity and the early church (after about 200 AD) are more deserving of blame than Paul--although I do not even think this is something rightfully 'blamed' on anyone.... I tend to be of the mind, these days, that all that happens is meant to be, as God has determined for our benefit and education--even the distortion of religious ideas of God being after our own characters rather than our ultimate goal of becoming more akin to His own.

Paul is extremely hard to understand; he was a true mystic--the first human being, probably, to be privy to the ultimate mystery of God's hidden blueprint for humanity. I do understand where you are coming from, though--don't think I'm condescending or not relating to your point--I do, straight from experience, myself. For most of my life I ignored Paul, then I had various suspicions regarding his true intent and purpose--even to the point of thinking he was 'antichrist'--mainly because he was a bully in the worst way to the early Messianic followers. I didn't even read his words--they made little sense and I felt sure he was God's enemy and the devil had tricked him with an apparition on the way to Damascus!

Then an amazing thing (or series of 'things', events, miracles, what-have-you) happened in my life--which changed my life in the 'twinkling of an eye.' And suddenly it became all too clear--what Paul was saying--and I knew he was for real because my own experience was quite similar to his. I didn't even really know what had happened to him, aside from the blindness on the road.
But God transformed Paul in an instant--truly converting Paul's soul in a permanent way that no man could do on his own.

And so Paul then knew, like I realized, that God loves us all--no matter how 'reprobate' we are, no matter how awful our self-serving self-righteousness and/or rebellion became, at its height. None of us are any more deserving of God's mercy than another one--and when He does reveal Himself to persons, one at a time, it is not because they deserve God's blessing--it is for the purpose of demonstrating God's abundant love and mercy to the rest of the world.

Think about it--Paul was most likely a murderer--we know he was an 'accessory' to Stephen's murder as a marytyred witness to the gospel. Paul was also a Pharisee--he denied and rejected Christ in every possible way. Paul is the poster child for what God can do! God can change every heart just with a thought--and He will, in the end--that is why I believe fully what it says in the OT--that He will make every knee to bow and every tongue to confess--that He will save the world. Because He can. He intends to. What He intends to do He surely will do.

In 2 Peter 3:15-16:
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I wonder if this a verse ever expounded upon from the pulpit? I see it all the time--and this is the basis for the christian religion--it has taken Paul's enigmatic deep teachings toward it's own man-made doctrines. It is very easy to conform hard-to-understand sayings to fit a desired meaning. Christ was plain-spoken and still His words are wrested with (or rather, picked and chosen according to the sermon of the day).

He even admitted to lying and deceit

* Corinthians 9:20-22: To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law -- though not being myself under the law -- that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak.

How is that deceit? Paul was genuinely all of those things: a Jew, born under the law and highly learned/disciplined in same, outside the law (liberated by the cross and no longer obligated toward Mosaic law), and weak (we are all weak yet some of us don't realize it yet, and other would rather ignore their weakness). Paul truly had the background to be able to relate to everyone--necessary as the first Ambassador of the Gospel.

* Romans 3:7: If through my lies God’s truth abounds to His glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?

This must be understood in context--and in regard to Paul's epistles, 'in context' often requires consideration of the entire epistle in question.

Start in chapter 2, Paul is saying what I said above: none of us are any less a 'sinner' than another--God doesn't play favorites. And so, if some lie about God (not understanding, surely, rather than purposeful lying, IMO), and their lies will only serve, in the end, to more starkly demonstrate, by contrast, the true abundance of God's nature--then why are even those who lie (for whatever reason) still counted as a sinner? They are ultimately doing God's will--we all are, whether we realize it or not. Paul goes on to say that without sin, we cannot know forgiveness--or understand just what a relief it is to be out from under to yoke of the law. Because we are all in the same boat--ultimately so that God can demonstrate His perfect righteousness (just mercy and impartiality) to all of us the same.

* Philippians 1:18: In every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Jesus is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.

The goal is to 'introduce' the idea of resurrection through the life and death of the Messiah....God can do the rest. His plan is to give us the opportunity to seek Him in truth or seek Him in superficial pursuit of creating our own self-perception of righteousness. So regardless of whether we hear about Christ from someone falsely using His name for capital gain of some sort, or from someone humbly spreading the light of truth--the rest is up to us. If we love truth and seek God's ultimate truth, He does not hesitate to send the Advocate to us in order to show us exactly what's what. It doesn't matter what is said--if we want to know what God says, He will make sure we hear.

On another thread, I said that I can't really say christianity is 'wrong'--and this is one of the reasons; even though I am not a christian, I did have my baptism in a christian church--and without such a thing, I might not have been able to know what I was supposed to do. After that, God took over--because I didn't seek to be a christian, I was seeking God through His Son. But the 'start' must be somewhere--and until the remnant of Israel is reinstated as Ambassadors-at-large, the christian religion is the place many start. It is also something God uses as His 'threshing floor.' It is a separator, so to speak. There is no reason not to rejoice over anything God gives us for our ultimate good--both individually and as the whole human race.

I am not trying to beat on righteous people here. Paul added some things that are not in line with the old testament at all. such as his views on marriage.
Plus God in the OT never said he expects perfection at all times except that we work toward being with him. Fundamentalist christians believe that blood atonement is the only way to God. but for Blood atonement to be acceptable it had to be on the altar and blood atonement was for unintentional sins anyway.
DId you know that in the times of the messiah animal Sacrifices will be done? So how could jesus be the messiah if he was the one time atonement for sin?

Originally posted by scienceguy94
I am not trying to beat on righteous people here. Paul added some things that are not in line with the old testament at all. such as his views on marriage.

Like what, specifically?

Plus God in the OT never said he expects perfection at all times except that we work toward being with him.

When did He say, in the NT, that He expects 'perfection at all times?' God does expect us to do our best to have a 'perfect heart' toward Him--our example being King David. All that really means, though, is to listen to God and God alone--not other people and not even ourselves.

Fundamentalist christians believe that blood atonement is the only way to God. but for Blood atonement to be acceptable it had to be on the altar and blood atonement was for unintentional sins anyway.

Bood was for both sins knowingly committed and sins done in ignorance. The ram, or bullock, was a sacrifice given on behalf of the people, by the priest, even when they were unaware of their transgressions. It was the priest's duty and responsibility to the people, in the service of the LORD--for the priest was anointed and consecrated to keep everyone in good standing--or else he was guilty of sin, himself, if he neglected his duty.

Christ was the passover victim--the sacrificial lamb whose blood hides us from the angel of death as we escape our slavery in this world. Ironically enough, fundamentalist christians have pretty much obliterated the fundamental significance of passover and the flight out of Egypt with things such as the eucharist/communion--and there is a vast amount of confusion over the differences between 'the law' and things which God established as 'signs between me and thee' (speaking to the children of Israel).

Also--Christ also fulfilled the 'free will' or 'peace' offering given to Abraham on Mt. Moriah, freely uttered by the LORD.

The rules made regarding sacrifices are directly related to the things that took place in the time that Yehoshua was fulfilling the law.

From what I understand, the OT isn't regarded as important as the NT in many christian settings--just as the NT is ignored by the orthodox jews. So there is a lot missed--the connection between the two cannot be seen if it isn't considered a valid point.

DId you know that in the times of the messiah animal Sacrifices will be done?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'the times of the messiah?'

I know that many get that understanding from what Ezekial wrote regarding the temple God showed him....

So how could jesus be the messiah if he was the one time atonement for sin?

Because He was 'anointed'--that is all that Messiah means. Over time, various embellishments have been attached to the simple meaning of 'anointed' --but simply stated, one is 'anointed' in order to serve God in a priestly office--anointed, consecrated, and sanctified.

Christ was the passover victim--the sacrificial lamb.

Even yeshua's brothers though he was crazy

Mark 3:21: Upon hearing of it, his family went out to seize him, for they said, "He is beside himself."
If the immaculate conception was real then his family would really believe he was the savior.

So how could jesus be the messiah if he was the one time atonement for sin?

Because He was 'anointed'--that is all that Messiah means. Over time, various embellishments have been attached to the simple meaning of 'anointed' --but simply stated, one is 'anointed' in order to serve God in a priestly office--anointed, consecrated, and sanctified.

So was he messiah or savior?
There are several tasks the messiah must accomplish
# Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)

# Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)

# Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9)

# Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4

jesus did none of this

Well, it sure would have helped if Saul of Tarsus (in Turkey) aka Paul actually met R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("Jeeezuzz") before his execution for Sedition against Rome. Then he had the nerve to fight with the people who actually knew him (e.g. Galatians chapter 2).

Oh, that's right ! Paul DID meet him...well sort of...umm....er...umm...well kind of...er...in dreams and trances...like my cook !!

I forgot !

So I guess my Cook can go around claiming Apostleship too then...