China now will be able to track U.S. submarines

The other possibility (fingers crossed here) is that we have anticipated such a compromise, and already have methods in place to use.

Well, after the case in the 80’s where our Sub operations were compromised by John A. Walker Jr, I hope we put some kind of plan in place so if it ever happened again we were prepared for it.

Originally posted by jsobecky
The problem is, many of these companies are fronts for espionage, and if you don't shut them down they will just get new players.

- Er, surely the point is that when you do 'shut them down' they just get new 'players'?

Originally posted by warpboost
I think they should be public executions to remind proestive traitors what happens

- Yeah! Hell why not.
How about 'Medieval Torture hour' live on TV to show just what happens to those who step out of line and are traitor to the new war effort?

That'll show everyone just how enlightened and different we all are from every other primitive blood-thirsty repressive tin-pot fascist state!

'We' only do it if you really deserve it!'
Wow, what a strap line!

You guys.

Well sminkey please enlighten us on how you suggest we punish traitors who give very very important classified information to potential adversaries? You don't recommend a few years at club med, do you?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Well sminkey please enlighten us on how you suggest we punish traitors who give very very important classified information to potential adversaries?

- Well first of all I accept there is a huge difference between disclosing secrets during 'war time' as opposed to when the country is at peace.

I think it also relevant, for those who wish to claim the so-called 'WOT' is a 'proper' war, that whether one is 'at war' with the country supplied with the 'secrets' is also highly relevant.

Do I think taking a life is (ever) justified? Or a 'Medieval Torture Hour' etc etc or any such revolting depravity?
No.

So I guess that just leaves prison.

I don't automatically go along with the idea that it is always a hugely damaging thing requiring extreme measures either.
Spying has been going on since forever, it isn't always and in every case a bad thing and has undoubtedly contributed to 'the peace' at various times.

As for this latest episode?
Those now wishing to cry into their beer that the USA might not now be quite the omnipotent power capable of doing just what the hell she likes whenever she fancies in all instances are going to get little sympathy from me.

Like as if the US isn't currently spying on everyone and the world's dominant military power - by far and in every sphere - anyway.
I prefer to try to tune in to the reality of how the world is right now, not give myself over to the simplistic myths, slogans and synthetic rage.


I hope this episode has helped bring some greater balance in the world.

I quite like the idea of balance; it tends to stop the deranged power-mad war-perv crazies on any/either side wrecking everything for the rest of us not so crazies that just want to get on with our lives in peace.


[edit on 6-11-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by jsobecky
The problem is, many of these companies are fronts for espionage, and if you don't shut them down they will just get new players.

from sminkeypinkey
- Er, surely the point is that when you do 'shut them down' they just get new 'players'?

No, quite the opposite. Rasputin had said

I don't think they should be shut down, but I think they should be excluded from future government contracts, sanctioned, etc. If we make it clear that we will not tolerate spies or any leak of military information coming from the private sector, and make it clear that these companies will suffer financially as a result, then I think we'll see a major improvement.

And that was my response to him. Shut the companies down; they are merely a front anyway. Make sense now?

from sminkeypinkey - Well first of all I accept there is a huge difference between disclosing secrets during 'war time' as opposed to when the country is at peace.

I think it also relevant, for those who wish to claim the so-called 'WOT' is a 'proper' war, that whether one is 'at war' with the country supplied with the 'secrets' is also highly relevant.

It's only relevant insofar as they can now receive two death penalties instead of just one death penalty. :

Do I think taking a life is (ever) justified? Or a 'Medieval Torture Hour' etc etc or any such revolting depravity?
No.

Well now, here I was thinking that the attitudes were coming from a simple jealousy and/or hatred of the US. This explains it all.

Tell me, sminkeypinkey, what is "creative altruism"? Would that be like pouring the tea for the man who just killed your mum? j/k

Ain't it great that we can have such widely divergent views expressed in the same forum?

Well, it's official in my eyes.

China is our enemy. We should cease trade with them. God knows there is enough cheap labor in the world.

As far as all those crying about Iraq being over oil... If it is, then it's good forsight. We should take Iran and Saudi Arabia as well (not like we actually will or even could), and starve China of oil to topple their economy.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Shut the companies down; they are merely a front anyway. Make sense now?

- Oh I understood the points made I am simply saying that you may do what you like but 'they'll' only come back in or with another form/front.
(often I'd say the most valuable and best idea would be to simply let things continue, monitor and feed disinformation)

Well now, here I was thinking that the attitudes were coming from a simple jealousy and/or hatred of the US.

- Hand on heart I can honestly say that as a British person I feel no such hatreds to entire countries nor jealousy to any person; I consider myself highly and unusually priviledged to have had the blessing of my own little accident of birth placing me exactly where I am and in the circumstances I enjoy, 'warts and all'.
Seriously.

This explains it all.

Tell me, sminkeypinkey, what is "creative altruism"? Would that be like pouring the tea for the man who just killed your mum? j/k

- OK, so you're kidding, fair enough.

But, where does this underlying notion that a disgust for all inhuman behaviour equates to an unwillingness to punish (no matter what or how barbaric the crime) come from?

I don't believe in a death penalty but do you honestly think a life sentence of incarceration is an easy ride?

Ain't it great that we can have such widely divergent views expressed in the same forum?

- It most surely is.

I don't believe in a death penalty but do you honestly think a life sentence of incarceration is an easy ride?

In certain circumstances, yes. For all purposes, the US is at war right now, whether you believe in it or not is irrelevant. If they are US citizens then they should be tried for treason, and executed according to the law. There should also be punishment for all the individuals that were negligent in their duty therefore allowing these people to gain access to secret information.

I agree. Watch them all wine as if they don't do any spying themselves! I would put next months pay packet that the US is spying on the UK and vice versa. Everyones at it and it is the 2nd oldest Profession in the world!

Forgive me for finding more comfort in an ally having some of our secrets than a Communist nation that is hell-bent on building up its military to unprescedented levels- levels which they won't even admit to. The bottom line is that the information that we may or may not be aquiring via spies in Britain will likely never be used to go to war with your country. There's a far greater chance of us going to war with China and our secrets being used against us, and ultimately costing the lives of countless Americans- both military and civilian.

So you guys can call us paranoid all you want. Its not your nation that is home to thousands of Communist China shell corporations and thousands of Chinese spies working daily to undermind your country and its military. I must be crazy because after all, all China wants is peace, love and happiness, right? They're not making this great effort at spying just to remain our ally.

Last time I checked we were DOWNSIZING the PLA from 3 to 2.3 then to 1.8 million men.

sinodefence.com

next, alot of what we're doing is replacing our equipment wiht more modern types and keeping the older units ither in reserve/storage or shipping it off to some other friendly nation.

Its fool hardy to suggest that we are increasing our army when in reality we're making it smaller.

Mod edit: fixed link

[edit on 7-11-2005 by sanctum]

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Last time I checked we were DOWNSIZING the PLA from 3 to 2.3 then to 1.8 million men.

sinofefence.com

next, alot of what we're doing is replacing our equipment wiht more modern types and keeping the older units ither in reserve/storage or shipping it off to some other friendly nation.

Its fool hardy to suggest that we are increasing our army when in reality we're making it smaller.

No, what China is doing is building up their MODERN military. It is very clear that China plans to take on America.

China has been actively stealing everything they possably can because they lack the infrastructure and R&D to challange western technology themselves.

from sminkeypinkey I don't believe in a death penalty but do you honestly think a life sentence of incarceration is an easy ride?

No it isn't, nor should it be. And your objection to capital puinishment is just as valid as my support of it. It is one of those points of views that we could go round and round all night long about, and neither of us would change our minds. Enough said, though. Good talking to ya.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Last time I checked we were DOWNSIZING the PLA from 3 to 2.3 then to 1.8 million men.

next, alot of what we're doing is replacing our equipment wiht more modern types and keeping the older units ither in reserve/storage or shipping it off to some other friendly nation.

Would you care to elaborate on that newer, more modern equipment you are planning to get? Better yet, just send every piece of documentation you have on it, over to us. We'll figure it out.

nothing can be done except to protect our secrets more vigilantly. also we should try doin more spy vs spy but dis time its China and not Russia. we have many Chinese Americans and we can recruit them to infiltrate the Chinese military and political structure. of course it be very tough since the Communist party is still very paranoid and the Taiwanese have a hard time infiltrating and learning wat Bejing's intentions are as well as wat new military weaponry they have. its time to start preparing.

actually th link I gave you tells what what Beijing is intenting to REPLACE which stuf with which.

We are building up our modern army yes, but we're doing it by getting rid of older equipment.

Can you doubt this? no. You have no evidence otherwise.

Next, China has had no wish to take on America as far as we are concerned your all just yang gui zi, we trade with you o make money that we use in turn to build up our economy we've done nothing wrong. What we d in our own country is our buisness.

For all of you who dun noe "yang gui zi" means something like western ghosts. Sounds a little bit offensive huh?

Anyway if u wan infiltrate CCP its easy. Money can do all the work. Juz look at the corruption down there.

I guess its a bit rude to steal others' stuff anyway...oh right buy original CDs, dun support piracy

China could no more invade and take over America than America could do the same to China. We're too large, too far apart, too diverse, it simply wouldn't happen, ever.

The only good this detection ability will accomplish will be to make America reticent to commit its nuke boats to a conflict involving China. They're covering their ass, not exposing ours.

I think people are over-reacting in general, not to the act of spying, which is most certainly treason, but moreover they're over-reacting to the net gain realized by China as a result of this action.

They cost us money, to engineer a solution, that's all. The war between our two countries probably won't start tommorow.

China has no interest in a shooting war with America, it would be mutually disasterous. They are grinding us into the ground with economics, which is ironically our weapon of choice for subjugating nations in this civilized age.

Chickens come home to roost much?

Execute the traitors though, you just don't sell secrets, it's dirty and shameful. If you must trade in secrets, give them away freely. At least then there's an excuse.

And then there's the fact that a fool and his secrets are soon parted.

We left the door open, we got robbed. Close the damn door or get used to it.

[edit on 7-11-2005 by WyrdeOne]

What you are all missing in the possiblity of this being a disinformation campaign. It is very possible that the US has been feeding disinformation to China through these spies. What a great way to have your enemies build the wrong equipment and waste alot of money.........

China has no interest in a shooting war with America, it would be mutually disasterous. They are grinding us into the ground with economics, which is ironically our weapon of choice for subjugating nations in this civilized age.

The difference is that we've always done it on the straight and narrow. We didn't pay our people rediculously low wages, purposely continue to undervalue our currency to manipulate the markets, have absolutely no respect for copyright laws and intellectual property rights, and so on. There is nothing wrong with competition in the international economic market- its the cornerstone of our capitalist free economy. But what isn't fair is China's cheating and manipulation to get ahead. They'll actually sell products at a loss, and it makes no difference to them because of their Communist funding.

What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. I'm not saying that our government is a bunch of Saints, but we've seen that China will go to great lengths to lie, cheat and steal just to get ahead in the world.

Originally posted by Rasputin13
The difference is that we've always done it on the straight and narrow.

- You have got to be kidding us, right?

You're joking, hmmm?

We didn't pay our people rediculously low wages

- The decades old fashion for imports/outsourcing is just what then, hmmm?

How about the decades old pressure to keep commodity prices at rock bottom - or are ultra low wages only your concern when it's within the US?

purposely continue to undervalue our currency to manipulate the markets

- Riiiiiiight; that's what all that business about establishing the US dollar as the world's currency after WW2 was all about then, hmmm?

Never mind the US's economy and the wildly variable fundamentals (things like the persistant vast debt, which doesn't actually support it's value) just make sure the globe uses it to trade almost every resource worth anything and 'it'll all be ok', hmmm?

have absolutely no respect for copyright laws and intellectual property rights, and so on.

- So are you saying that a world where every piece of "intellectual property" is available only at a cost and laden with conditions for its useage (no matter how petty) is just sooooo much better, eh?
Yeah right.

There is nothing wrong with competition in the international economic market- its the cornerstone of our capitalist free economy.

- Americans tend to love 'free markets' (despite there never actually ever being any such thing and there never ever going to be) when they go their way.

But what isn't fair is China's cheating and manipulation to get ahead.

- As if the US doesn't have a reputation for corporate and governmental corruption and international bribery (cheating and manipulation, eh)?

It's nothing new or too surprising, when anyone else does it you howl the place down but are blind to when your guys do it.

(....and yes it makes a difference, the individual national aero industries of Europe were pretty much destroyed by the 'political leaning' in conjunction with the scandelous corporate behaviour of the US aero industry in the 60's.
Jobs, families, potential.
Not nice is it?)

They'll actually sell products at a loss, and it makes no difference to them because of their Communist funding.

- I think you'll find plenty of US companies have connections and invest in these companies.

The idea that they get lavish funding from the Chinese communist party gov is pretty far from the mark.
(What ever happened to the idea of old inefficient clapped out command economies then, hmmm? Suddenly the communist way is a cheating leg-up to better the US economy? As if.
)
IIRC many Chinese industries have had their gov funding cut as they pursue a much more western economic program (as they have done since the 1980's).

What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. I'm not saying that our government is a bunch of Saints, but we've seen that China will go to great lengths to lie, cheat and steal just to get ahead in the world.

- So, quite a lot like the USA in their own way then, hmmm?

......and if you think the Chinese are "ahead" (or anywhere near close) and that the average standard of living of an American verses a Chinese person is not the huge disparity that it is (in favour of the US citizen) I think you need to really think again.


[edit on 7-11-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by ferretman
What you are all missing in the possiblity of this being a disinformation campaign. It is very possible that the US has been feeding disinformation to China through these spies. What a great way to have your enemies build the wrong equipment and waste alot of money.........

I agree that it could be a disinfo campaign, and it wouldn't be the first time the Chinese fell for it the US intel agencies could have known all along that the suspect people were chinese spies and let them stay and then feed them crap info that has just enough truth so they will actually try to act on it