Are you good enough to get to Heaven?

ps) One of the most amazing discussions I have seen on BTS thanks to the new "all-in-one board."



Kudos to all.

Zedd, the “eye for an eye” law was instituted as a guide for judges, not as a rule for personal relationships or to justify revenge. This rule made the punishment fit the crime. So with our new covenant with God please "turn the other cheek".

If a man or woman knows Gods laws they will be held accountable for following or ignoring as it's their choice in life.

Originally posted by Gazrok

Salvation is found in Jesus Christ. Good deeds don't cut it. A person's sin must be completely removed, that happens through accepting Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

Ooohhh....my favorite...

So, given the above, let's see how it works in the real world.

Man A: lives in rural China. Never heard one word about Jesus. Lives a good life, is charitable, lives like a saint.

Man B: hacked up his whole family with an axe...but after years in prison, accepts Jesus as his savior, and then gets fried.

According to the quoted belief above...Man B goes to heaven, while Man A burns in hell. Personally, seems like better company in hell....

[edit on 2-11-2005 by Gazrok]

Man B- sinned no doubt about it, and at some point asked Christ to forgive him, and if he meant it, yes he would spend eternity with God.

Man A- did good works throughout his life, but there is one problem he also at some point committed sins.

Both men were born with a sin nature that eventually evidenced itself with sins. This sin nature and the sins have to be dealt with. Sin brings death and death brings seperation from God. Forgiveness/removal of that is accomplished in Christ. He became sin for us and God's wrath/punishment against sin was taken out on Christ. If anyone accepts that by faith they are forgiven.

Now a very key point with sin. People rate sins. Lying is on the low end of our scale, murder is on the high end. God doesn't rate sins, all sins or any sin seperates us from God. If you had 2 people and the only sins they ever committed were one lied and one murdered, both sinned and are seperated from God and both are in need of salvation.

Now there are different consequences for different sins, but any sin causes seperation from God.

God does not weigh our good deeds against our bad deeds to determine if we get to enter heaven. If that were the case we would never know if we had done enough to escape hell. Through Christ we believe in Him and we know He has paid our penalty for our sins. He then indwells us and begins to change us into what we should be, not to be svaed but because we are saved.

As far as man A never hearing about Christ, that's why God has people become missionaries. There is also an underground church in China. Don't use the excuse of what about the guy who never heard, because that is something God takes care of. Your responsibility is to decide for you, when you hear about Jesus.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
ps) One of the most amazing discussions I have seen on BTS thanks to the new "all-in-one board."

Kudos to all.

Yeah man I agree.

So I have this cousin that is mentally challenged from his umbilical cord being wraped aroung his neck at birth. He just so happens to have never of sinned never whached television and his christian mother home schooled him. He was never exposed to any sin, and never concieved a sinful thought. He understands what his mother has taught him of Jesus Christ and the bible.

He has an older brother, that was raised by his father but in another family. He trusts this older brother more than anyone else he knows, including his mother. His brother makes him believe the bible is lying and he rejects Jesus Christ.

Will this inoccent, child like man that has not ever sinned in either body or mind go to hell?

OK, I've only been away for a couple of hours and WOW!!!!
So many replies I don't know where to begin!

Well, let me ask you all who think that you are getting to Heaven because you are good, a few questions:

Have you ever told a lie? It doesn't matter how big or small it is or what color it is, answer yes or no.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
He was never exposed to any sin, and never concieved a sinful thought. He understands what his mother has taught him of Jesus Christ and the bible.

His brother makes him believe the bible is lying and he rejects Jesus Christ.

Will this inoccent, child like man that has not ever sinned in either body or mind go to hell?

Everyone is born with a sin nature, yet that sin nature will not manifest itself right away. Your cousin was also born with a sin nature. You really didin't say how bad his handicap is, but you did say his mother tells him of Christ and his brother tries to destroy his mothers work. That seems to indicate he has some concept and ability of being able to distinguish and choose.

This next sentence I am not saying to judge or offend in anyway. But there is only one who would know if your cousin has had a sinful thought and that would be God Himself.

Your cousin is a complicated matter, but here is what I know. God is faithful, fair and just. He understands your cousins situation and takes that all into account. God Himself even takes responsibilty for the disability your cousin lives with. It sounds like your aunt is doing what she needs to. Becuase of the disability your cousin lives with God will go the extra mile for him.

Then he will have to go the extra mile with everyone. Why do I say this? Because my God is a fair and Just God and he made me in his own image. He did this so our souls could evolve.

God is good. God understands us. Man made the call for salvation, for in Gods eyes his childrens salvation was never in question, this is the way he meant it to be.



[edit on 2-11-2005 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Then he will have to go the extra mile with everyone.

[edit on 2-11-2005 by LoneGunMan]

I believe that also because He wants none to perish, so I totally agree that He goes above and beyond what we know.

We were talking in the context of someone who is mentally handicapped. God understands the limitations they may have and so His mercy and grace is great to them.

[edit on 2-11-2005 by dbrandt]

Holy crap, why is it that the more thorough a response I prepare, the more likely it is to glitch out and get lost! :bnghd:

Zed:
In the hypothetical universe under consideration, duty to the Supreme Creator of that universe outweighs all other considerations, especially small and narrow human ethical considerations, which change from one culture to the next. So those horrible horrible people aren't getting into heave via a technicality, they are doing the one thing that is required to 'get into' heaven as dictated by god, those who reject the super-god-creator actually are doing something far far worse than any of those other people, as perverted as that sounds to man. One of the biggest hero's of the bible, the one that god speaks to first after such a long hiatus, is a child-murder, worse, a guy who killed his own kid because of some voice in his head. Abraham is exactly like those women a few years ago who drowned and strangled their kids because 'god' told them to do so. In such a universe, if thats what the creator demands, its, by default, the right thing to do.

KL:
If you or I had answers to those questions, we'd be popes and dali lamas and the like!

But again, for someone to 'know' the basic outline of the jesus mythos, to know that its true, and reject it, well, how do they know that its true? From themselves? They can't, man doesn't have the ability to, at least reasonably, distinguish the supernatural truth/divine truth. A decision can only be arrived at irrationally, and that means either that people are more or less willy nilly accepting some things as true and not true, which almost makes it meaningless even if what they accept really is true, or the knowledge of it being the truth is stemming from god. But then, thats basically saying that god is picking and choosing who gets saved, that he picks and choses who gets to beleive in jesus, which is perverse and meaningless in a way. (as I say above, we'd have no choice but to accept this as actually being morally right, but still, damn man )

Dbrandt
Why is man born with sin tho, such that it keeps them from salvation? Hardly seems correct that god would actually do that to people no?

As far as any sin is sin enough, I beleive that church dogma is that only mortal sin is the sort that, should you die with it, you won't be saved. This at least makes sense when preists and confession to those preists is actually required for absolving sin.

As far as god wanting everyone to be saved, that seems to present a bit of a conundrum no? He's all powerful, and salvation comes entirely thru him, so he decides who gets saved and who does, regardless of whatever we think are our own 'decisions'.

As far as the bit about the missionaries, what do you think about the questions i asked KL in the first page of the thread? I'd be curious to hear.

LGM:
It doesn't make sense to say that god is 'good' in the human sense, because a god man stops bad things from happening, when he can. God doesn't do this. Heck, even in the bible, jesus inists that his followers do nothing to fight against or prevent evil and bad things from happening, that's what 'turn the other cheek' means, it means don't get caught up in fighting evil.

if god is everything, then god doesnt need anything. if so, then what you have is an imperfect god. thus, you don't have to do anything to get anywhere, just live. get it? we've been jibbed.



[edit on 2-11-2005 by deafence#]

Originally posted by deafence#
if god is everything, then god doesnt need anything. if so, then what you have is an imperfect god. thus, you don't have to do anything to get anywhere, just live. get it? we've been jibbed.



[edit on 2-11-2005 by deafence#]

Heh, but if God were imperfect, then why would we expect him to follow the everyone exception? Why wouldn't we expect him to follow the "thumb suckers get into heaven" rule?

Originally posted by just me 2
I'm taking a poll!
How many people believe that to get into Heaven, you have to be a good person?

Heres my 10 cents.
Am I good enough to get into heaven?
I dont believe in an afterlife in any form .
Will I have regrets leading up to the time I die ?
Of course I will but I will be at peace with what I have done in my life.
Due to the self belief that I have in my past and future actions I dont feel I need to seek approval from any group of people.

The idea of heaven is like praying I dont believe in either , but no harm is done to me so if people want to believe in heaven or pray they should be free to do so.

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by deafence#
if god is everything, then god doesnt need anything. if so, then what you have is an imperfect god. thus, you don't have to do anything to get anywhere, just live. get it? we've been jibbed.

[edit on 2-11-2005 by deafence#]

Heh, but if God were imperfect, then why would we expect him to follow the everyone exception? Why wouldn't we expect him to follow the "thumb suckers get into heaven" rule?

to clarify, i didnt mean god was imperfect, but would have to be nothing less than perfect. to be perfect is to be complete, and since everything came from god, and god is supposedly everything, there is nothing such a being would ever lack, or need fulfillment from. god wouldnt need praise, because god already is the praise in a persons everyday life. god wouldnt need to lash out in anger, since god would only be lashing at itself. and god certainly wouldnt need to judge or condemn, since to do so, would be condemning a part of itself. to think otherwise states that god is seperate from everything else, ie; not complete, not perfect.

im not saying god doesnt exist, but if god does, it would be something like what i mentioned above. otherwise, god would just be a tool for control. and that doesnt sound right to me.

I am in heaven for one.

Second I am judged by man everyday so I don't fear god or any book.
Most men don't agree what is right and wrong anyway so I fear nothing.

My theory of all souls = god well it would be a numbers game if over 50% think I should go to hell cause I am to poor to donate 10% to a church or don't go to one that doesn't agree with other religions. So be it. I welcome hell I am sure souls with equal thought can spruce hell up to be heaven anyway. Plus I am smarter than satan so he better watch his red ass when I bust through the gates!

So next time you judge a man or woman remember you to will be judged for that no matter who its by. What we could change this world to with a positive belief would be amazing until than we live in chao!

BTW its kinda racist satan is red an not a white guy like Jebus! Know what am saying? I will woop him extra hard for that!

Originally posted by just me 2
I'm taking a poll!
How many people believe that to get into Heaven, you have to be a good person?

Originally posted by japike
BTW its kinda racist satan is red an not a white guy like Jebus! Know what am saying? I will woop him extra hard for that!

interesting point of view... but to get technical, satan/lucifer is a demon (or ex- arch angel), ie; not human. so i hardly see it racist at all. plus i dont know where it says satan is red, besides what you see in cartoons. same with jesus, just a false portrayal. people around the world who have faith in him tend to picture him as someone they can relate to, depending on what time era they are from, or what they are taught. clearly, jesus was born in israel, so he wasnt white. although if both jesus and satan are placed in the false context that one is white and the other red, i suppose some might see it as being the way you described...

[edit on 3-11-2005 by deafence#]

Originally posted by Nygdan
Dbrandt
Why is man born with sin tho, such that it keeps them from salvation? Hardly seems correct that god would actually do that to people no?

As far as any sin is sin enough, I beleive that church dogma is that only mortal sin is the sort that, should you die with it, you won't be saved. This at least makes sense when preists and confession to those preists is actually required for absolving sin.

As far as god wanting everyone to be saved, that seems to present a bit of a conundrum no? He's all powerful, and salvation comes entirely thru him, so he decides who gets saved and who does, regardless of whatever we think are our own 'decisions'.

Adam was made in the image of God without sin, when He and Eve chose to disobey God their spirit died. Then they had children in their image, with this sin nature and so on and so on right down to today.

I heard someone say this and it's something I haven't forgotten because it helps to understand why God did things the way He did. "Without the power to choose there is no ability to love", so God did things the way He did for reasons known only to Him. We won't know all those reasons this side of heaven. We will get glimpses here and there.

You bring up the catholic church with it's views. I believe the catholic church is false and doesn't correctly teach and follow God. I've sat and watched EWTN several times and they miss the mark on what God truly says and bring complication and confusion to actual salvation.

God calls everyone to salvation, but He has given the choice to make to answer His call. If your phone was ringing. You have a choice to answer it or not, that's kinda they way it is with salvation. God is constantly "ringing our phone" and He's the one calling with the offer of forgiveness. We can chose to answer the call or let it keep ringing.

Now a very key point with sin. People rate sins. Lying is on the low end of our scale, murder is on the high end. God doesn't rate sins, all sins or any sin seperates us from God. If you had 2 people and the only sins they ever committed were one lied and one murdered, both sinned and are seperated from God and both are in need of salvation.

What about God's sins? Is he simply not accountable to anyone? I realize this would be construed as blasphemy, but for argument's sake, it's something to consider. In his own book, he swept down on Egypt and slew all of the first born of the Egyptians. Thousands of innocent babies, children, etc. slain, all as an object lesson. But oh no...I eat meat on a Friday and I need to be forgiven? Sorry, but it all seems like a sick joke....

Salvation, salvation.... What EXACTLY is salvation to you? Seriously...consider it for a moment. What does salvation or the idea of it really mean to you? Personally, I'd rather be surrounded by fellows like Man A. There's a REASON we as people rate sins. Maybe God can learn something from us, just as parents often learn from their children? No?

As far as man A never hearing about Christ, that's why God has people become missionaries. There is also an underground church in China. Don't use the excuse of what about the guy who never heard, because that is something God takes care of. Your responsibility is to decide for you, when you hear about Jesus.

BS...you are assuming that the word of Christ has made it to every living man, woman, and child on Earth? I'm sure there are some very remote tribes that have no idea whatsoever. Again, assuming Christianity is correct, these people would be absolutely doomed... I simply cannot accept the idea of a "perfect" being doing this.

God did things the way He did for reasons known only to Him

The Lord works in mysterious ways....yes, the standard cop-out, we've heard this one way too many times.... It's used anytime the idea of a "perfect" God is questioned. Indeed, it's amazing to me how a "perfect" being can make such a "flawed" creation (thereby of course, nullifying it's "perfect" status).

I still chuckle at the story of Adam, Eve, and the Tree. Originally, it was called "The Tree of Knowledge". This of course was used as a tool by the early church to teach the sheep that knowledge should come ONLY from God (or his trusty reps), not be sought on it's own. NOW though....it's been stealthily ammended to "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil", hehe....

IF there is a Heaven, and IF there is some kind of deity in charge of it all (regardless of name), then I seriously doubt he or she's going to be concerned with the little petty rituals and dohgmas MAN has created. I can only assume that the concern will be more with how we lived our lives. And, if not, then well, such a being isn't worth my worship anyhow....and I'll do a tripple Lindy into the Lake of Fire willingly and without regret...for I've lived my life as I believed, and tried to be the best man, friend, son, father, brother, husband I can be....



[edit on 3-11-2005 by Gazrok]

OK, we're getting a little off topic.
I was trying to establish that every one of us (including myself) has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

Consider these questions:
1. Have you ever told a lie?
2. Have you ever stolen anything? (regardless of the value of the item)
3. Have you ever used God's name in vain? That is the same thing as using God's holy name as a curse word which is blasphemeing.
4. Jesus said that whoever looks upon a woman with lust in their eyes has committed adultery with her already in his heart. Have you ever looked with lust?

If you have done these things, God sees you as a lying, theiving, blasphemous, adulterer at heart.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Rev. 21:8 "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

Based on that criteria, on the Day of Judgement will you be innocent or guilty? Will you go to Heaven or Hell?

Based on that criteria, on the Day of Judgement will you be innocent or guilty? Will you go to Heaven or Hell?

Why the simple question?

By the criteria of Christianity, it doesn't matter WHAT you do, or how often you do it....as long as...in the end....you HONESTLY seek forgiveness from Christ. It's kind of a spiritual "Get out of Jail" card offered to followers...

1. Have you ever told a lie?
2. Have you ever stolen anything? (regardless of the value of the item)
3. Have you ever used God's name in vain? That is the same thing as using God's holy name as a curse word which is blasphemeing.
4. Jesus said that whoever looks upon a woman with lust in their eyes has committed adultery with her already in his heart. Have you ever looked with lust?

1. Do you think Jesus never lied? Not even like telling Mary he made his bed when he didn't? Sure...
2. I'd wager Jesus picked a fruit or two from someone's field during his travels...
3. Even Jesus asked why pops had forsaken him....
4. Like Jesus never looked at Mary of Magdelene's rack...

Even accepting him as the son of God, he was also of man....

[edit on 3-11-2005 by Gazrok]