CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret "Black Site" Prisons

Originally posted by vuoto
And "skippytjc", if you hate American ideals so much that you want to see us turn into some caricature of the Soviet Union, torturing prisoners in secret prisons, you still have time to catch a plane to North Korea, where you can live in a place a little more to your liking.

[sarcasm]
No - you don't get it Man.

If the Russkies do it, its BAD - when US do it, its OKEY.

Can't you understand that these people Deserved it?
[/sarcasm]

Any information gathered under torture can't be trusted because a prisoner will tell you anything just to stop the pain. Apparently, you're desire for torture does not arise out of a desire for information, but simply from an atavistic need. Did you lose any friends or family members in 9/11 or Iraq? No? So why the need for revenge?

True.

A tortured prisoner will tell you, that he is wearing a pink g-string underwear, just to stop the Pain.

Imagine if you are Innocent man, being illegaly kidnapped, flown with an illegal Air service to illegal detention camps, where ALL of your Basic Rights as as a Human and an alleged Prisoner of War are being stripped away, just like your clothes?

I guess some people did not see that movie called Shawshank Redemption...

Originally posted by truttseeker
Yes, I love the bashing of the United States. Im sure there are no other countries in the world today with secret prisons. The only reason the US is singled out is because we're the only ones that got caught. If you think that it's only the United States you are just blinded.

You don't get it, do you?

It is NOT about Bashing the United States - its about Bashing the CURRENT US GOVERMENT, that is Obsessed with Secrecy.

The Current US Goverment, that ignores International Laws and Conventions, and then expects to be treated as a "Honest Superpower"?

That's how an Empire works, remember?

Originally posted by vuoto
And "skippytjc", if you hate American ideals so much that you want to see us turn into some caricature of the Soviet Union, torturing prisoners in secret prisons, you still have time to catch a plane to North Korea, where you can live in a place a little more to your liking.

Any information gathered under torture can't be trusted because a prisoner will tell you anything just to stop the pain. Apparently, you're desire for torture does not arise out of a desire for information, but simply from an atavistic need. Did you lose any friends or family members in 9/11 or Iraq? No? So why the need for revenge?

Its funny, people like you criticize people who defend the US’s actions, but where are your comments on the terrorists themselves and their actions? LOL, your agenda is clear...

I read this article and orginally posted in this thread. I was't aware of this thread until Indy's post in the last one so I figured I would post here too.

After reading this article I found a few very interesting points. I though this was pretty crazy

"Virtually nothing is known about who is kept in the facilities, what interrogation methods are employed with them, or how decisions are made about whether they should be detained or for how long."


I also thought this part of the article was insane to say the least

"But the revelations of widespread prisoner abuse in Afghanistan and Iraq by the U.S. military -- which operates under published rules and transparent oversight of Congress -- have increased concern among lawmakers, foreign governments and human rights groups about the opaque CIA system. Those concerns escalated last month, when Vice President Cheney and CIA Director Porter J. Goss asked Congress to exempt CIA employees from legislation already endorsed by 90 senators that would bar cruel and degrading treatment of any prisoner in U.S. custody."


So basically they don't have to say where these prisons are, who's being held in them, what the people are being held for or for how long not to mention it sounds like they can pretty much do whatever they want to the prisoners with impunity under the guise that they are terrorists.

would anibody be concerned if Osama was somehow captured and taken to one of these secret facilities? would u be like awww poor Osama, im goin to send a letter to Congress to show my complaint about Osama been held secret and being treated bad.

I guess some people did not see that movie called Shawshank Redemption...

I'm glad someone brought this up. What goes on in many US (and other countries) prisons makes what happened in A-G seem like nothing more than wearing women's underwear on their heads.

I guess some people did not see that movie called Midnight Express...

Deltaboy I understand your point, but would you care when one of your friends, family memebers or co workers gets locked up in one of these prisons as a suspected terrorist?

[edit on 2-11-2005 by warpboost]

Yes I would care, and if they were guilty I'd want to be the one to pull the trigger.

That argument is used by pro-capital punishment types against anti-capital punishment types.

"Would you care if it were your daughter that was raped and murdered?"

The difference being, I won't apologize for the guilty.

Whoops...I just saw that you directed your question to deltaboy. Sorry.

[edit on 2-11-2005 by jsobecky]

The problems here is why the secrecy of having bases in other countries and why, if these individuals are link to Alqaida and to the war on terror they are not here in the US for the American people to see that justice is done.

The question of braking laws is not so much as which ones more than what is considered a questioning technique in a foreign land.

If the prisoners are indeed the so call masterminds of terror I care less for what is happening to them.

But how the screening is conduct, how the Innocent is filtered from the guilty ones that is something we never will get to find out.

Torturing has never been know to bring good results in information gathering, actually in stressful situations humans tend to agree with what the torturer is telling them as to stop the pain.

Now the point here is how can we trust our own government involvement in the so call secret detention centers and will our own government will use them to house Americans that are suspicious of being terrorist.

That is what I find very questionable.

Originally posted by warpboost
Deltaboy I understand your point, but would you care when one of your friends, family memebers or co workers gets locked up in one of these prisons as a suspected terrorist?

if i was Osama's relative...probably not care at all. be making more money from the oil business than be watching my cousin Osama making more attacks on the infidels in the name of Allah.

who cares what they do......as long as they keep us safe from terrorists......if this means making a guy get naked to get info on a possible attack on America...or US troops.....then spare the rod and spoil the child.

Interesting thread as it shows the very short term way in which Americans look towards the future.

In ten or fifteen years time when the definition of terrorist has changed to include a few more mundane crimes such as political protest and attacking the government? What will people say then?

It sounds extreme, but by giving a part of the US government the power to detain people anywhere without telling anyone where they are or why for as long as they want is the top of the slippery slope towards totalitarianism.

from marg
The problems here is why the secrecy of having bases in other countries and why, if these individuals are link to Alqaida and to the war on terror they are not here in the US for the American people to see that justice is done.

There are approx about 300 of these prisoners, marg. How else can they handle them? Would you have them brought back to the states?

Prisons in other nations might be necessary for a couple of reasons: one is for the prisoner to be housed in his native country.

If that isn't possible, then hide them somewhere where the other terrorists can't find them.

The WOT is global. There is no one country we are at war with. It would be much easier if it were that way, but they're scattered all over. So we have to adopt some of their tactics.

Originally posted by vuoto
Bikereddie, if you still find Souljah's claims "laughable" you might want to check out news reports hitting the American media right about now, though it might spoil your good time.

The American media also reported the flushing of korans down the toilet....didn't happen.

The American media also reported the AWOL of GW....didn't happen.

The American media also reported the election of Thomas Dewey...didn't happen.

The American media also reported dozens of dead bodies, rapes, and murders in the SuperDome....didn't happen.

The American media also reported that GM/Chevy trucks exploded into fireballs when struck in the side....didn't happen....until they fired off a small initiator just before impact.

The American media will jump at any chance to report sensational news....even if it didn't happen.

Originally posted by Souljah
Are You Serious Man?

Yes. Please cite the law.

Because then they are the Same "Terrorist Animals" - and not the "Civilzed West" that is so proudly said each and every time.

Ok. And?

This my friends is nothing new. The CIA has been doing this for many years, in fact since the early 80's.

You think that the Navy Seals only pull snatch and grab missions during war? I do not think so.

In essence these reports are (some what) old and to a degree out dated since the media does not care nor know about what the Spec Ops Community does during peace time. but one would have to know of such things and how Spec Ops teams work and the types of missions they perform to even know of such things.

I really do not like this, but the terrorists would do the same thing except for flying prisoners to a different country.

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
Interesting thread as it shows the very short term way in which Americans look towards the future.

In ten or fifteen years time when the definition of terrorist has changed to include a few more mundane crimes such as political protest and attacking the government? What will people say then?

It sounds extreme, but by giving a part of the US government the power to detain people anywhere without telling anyone where they are or why for as long as they want is the top of the slippery slope towards totalitarianism.

Well that's a common mistake every dictatorship or dictatorship in making or leaning toward makes. First it starts with military superiority. With military superiority you develope the feeling that you don't need anybody else. And then you develope a delusion that you are the greatest or even God sent or given a mandate, to save, unite or enslave the whole world. Does anybody remember that Spain was once a peacefull community where Christians, Jews and Muslims lived in peace? But the Christians had weapon superiority and they've soon developed this simptomes I stated before. And we all know what happened next don't we.

Every empire went through this in history, why should be any different for US?

ARMY-

Let's see:

Bush said Saddam had weapons of mass destruction - DIDN'T HAPPEN

Bush said Saddam was 45 minutes away from launching a nuclear strike -- DIDN'T HAPPEN

Bush told us that Saddam was involved in the 9/11 terrorist attacks - DIDN'T HAPPEN

Bush told us that if he found out any of his staff was "involved" in outing a CIA agent, he'd fire them - DIDN'T HAPPEN

If you want to point out that the media sometimes doesn't get it right, does that bother you more than the fact that our Commander in Thief LIES OUTRIGHT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE? Say what you want about the fact that the media has been wrong, but when they're wrong, over 2000 young Americans don't have to die in the desert.

Today, all of the major polls have only 35% of the American people supporting George Bush, down from nearly 90% after 9/11. That means only the most boneheaded are still hanging on to this failed presidency, which will go down in history as one of the worst periods in the existence of the USA.

Have a good day.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by Souljah
Are You Serious Man?

Yes. Please cite the law.

The United States has ratified the UN's Convention Against Torture and the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions. The Convention Against Torture defines torture in the following terms:

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him... information or a confession, punishing him for an act he... has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him. (Article 1)


In 2004 the atrocity of U.S. troops abusing Iraqi POWs exposed the dark side of human rights performance of the United States. The scandal shocked the humanity and was condemned by the international community. It is quite ironic that on Feb. 28 of this year, the State Department of the United States once again posed as the 'the world human rights police' and released its Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2004. As in previous years, the reports pointed fingers at human rights situation in more than 190 countries and regions (including China) but kept silent on the U.S. misdeeds in this field. Therefore, the world people have to probe the human rights record behind the Statue of Liberty in the United States.

Violatng Both - the Geneva Convention and Universal Human Rights.

Because then they are the Same "Terrorist Animals" - and not the "Civilzed West" that is so proudly said each and every time.

Ok. And?

So you Agree that word "Civilized" is not Describing the West when talking about Torture and Abuse in CIA detention Camps?

BERLIN, Nov. 3 - The European Union said Thursday that it would "seek more information" on allegations that a member country and a would-be member might have been sites of secret American jails for suspected members of Al Qaeda. The European Commission, the organization's executive arm, stopped short of starting a formal investigation.

The Washington Post reported Wednesday that the C.I.A. had been holding its "most important Al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe." The report, attributed to American and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement, did not name the countries.

Human Rights Watch, however, said it had information indicating Romania, scheduled to join the union in 2007, and Poland, which joined last year, had sites for secret prisons.

The Associated Press cited Marc Garlasco, a senior military analyst with Human Rights Watch, which is based in New York, who said the group matched flights with testimony from former detainees held by the United States. He said "the indications are that prisoners in Afghanistan" were being taken "to facilities in Europe and other countries in the world." He would not say how the organization obtained the flight logs, according to The A.P.

Source.
New York Times

Poland and Romania ey?

I wonder if our Goverment - Sloveian - has some "Secret Deals" with the CIA also. They are also trying very hard to be the Good NATO soldiers, and Obey.