No finance no romance

you whine like a woman...no confidence..many excuses.
Do you for one moment think this is the attraction to most women. No wonder you feel a shortage of everything.

Science Guy ..ever heard of the trial and error method or the "Scientific Method. ???"

Agree again with the entirety of Dr Strangeloves post..well done again olde man..well done. Keep up the good work.

Orangetom

I meant Dr Strangecraft...my apologies.

Orangetom

Learn to be charming.
Grow a sense of humor.

It's free...And I have been told that women appreciate both..

It's about Jane Goodall's work among chimpanzees.

She was observing a troop with a very strong alpha male. This male, as is common among the cloudforest-dwelling primates, chose two helpers, or "captains," each of whom was to choose a couple of "leutenants." The whole thing is a bit like the mafia organization, with a Don (alpha male), several Caporegimes (beta males) under him.

The real warfare is supposed to be among the "bagmen," the peripheral males, who are trying to get into the organization, either by "making their bones" (attacking a rival troop) or by fighting a member, and taking his spot.

Anyway, there was one chimpanzee who had been crippled by polio. All the others picked on this one. He was a peripheral male, apparently for life. And as you point out, among the lower primates, status dictates access to mates. I cannot remember this poor dudes name, so let's just refer to him as "Z," reminding us of his low status.

Did he give up and leave the troop? No. He didn't. The chimps had noticed Goodall, and even "raided" her camp a couple of times (very unprofessional of her to have allowed that kind of contact, btw.) Well, most of the other males had begun ignoring Goodall. But not "z." In fact he found a couple of empty Kerosene-cans behind her tent, and quickly stole them.

Now, in the chimpworld, you demonstrate your "jock" status by beating someone up, or by vandalizing a tree or bush. You rip it up, break the biggest branches off, etc. The women are attracted by how much noise you can make. If you are a lower-ranked male, and the alpha male feels threatened, he picks a tree next to yours and starts snapping off branches, much louder than you ever could. It really takes you down a notch with the judys when boss man puts you in your place by being noisier than you.

So one day, a captain is challenging the alpha for control of the pack. Happens every 6 months or so. The captain and his leutenants are tearing the hell out of a tree. So here comes the alpha, and his other capos and leutenants and bagmen. Rather than a physical fight, they just pick a bigger tree, next to the rebels, and start tearing the holy crap out of their own tree.

Suddenly "Z" walks in the middle of things, and starts banging his kerosene-cans. Louder noise than all the rest of the males collectively can muster; you can hear it for miles. ALL the chimps, who were just about to get physical, can agree that they have to murder this dude who is louder than everything they can do.

But the females come running. They surround "z," and are vying for his attention; "presenting" furiously, by aiming their genitals at him, to show they are ready to mate. Some of them are trying to latch on him and perform fellatio, and biting each other to drive off the peripheral females.

In less than 10 minutes, "z" has gone to the top of the sex-pyramid, and without hurting anyone. The previous alpha, his capos, AND his rival all end up leaving the troop because they are no longer getting sex. Z lived for almost a year like an oriental despot, with a harem of females petting him from sunup to sundown.

"Z" ran that troop until Goodall left Africa, and stole her Kerosene cans back while Z was napping. Which I thought was incredibly cruel of her.

Here's my point. If "Z" didn't let physical disability rule out his sexual and social success, why should you????

I mean, he's a frikken chimp. He lives in the original jungle, not even the concrete one that you inhabit, with its laws and welfare and doctors. Z inhabited the world Thomas Paine was thinking about when he said that life without government would be "nasty, cruel, brutish, and short."

If "z" could prosper in that environment, why can't you prosper in yours???

He found a "nuclear option" that vaulted him over the heads of even the mightiest apes. So, that's what you should do. I mean, if he could get laid while having a crippling disease, surely you can do so, too.

You just need to find your own "kerosene-cans"

Maybe a guitar?

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I agree with you here ..and I'm getting worried..I am agreeing with you entirely to much!!!

Don't fight it my friend. You are doing well.

you whine like a woman...no confidence..many excuses.

Well you were.. :shk:

While I am not the neatest person in the world...I dont like piggyness in men or women. I notice this quickly when I see a woman.

I actually meant chauvinist.. though I think being a slob is a prerequisit to being a pig. Cleaning up the bear cans for instance is 'womans work' so there is a need for consistency.

Scienceguy,

Why do you think attractive women should date ugly men.. don't you think they have a right to actually enjoy themselves too.. or do you just want pity sex?
Why do you think you 'deserve' the cream of the crop? They've got looks.. what can you bring to the table?

I'm just trying to understand your side of things and why you think this is 'unfair'.

[edit on 3-11-2005 by riley]

Now that is a funny story..and very appropriate. Once again well done.

Its been years since I read Jane Goodall's book. I do not know how many volumes she wrote or updated but I found her writing very intresting.

One of the phenomonon from Jane Goodall's book that I have used often with the women I've seen is the one of patting a woman on the behind to show that everything is alright...in private of course. If I recall the pattern correctly ..if the Alpha Male is not patting the others on the behind when they present their rears ...keep away..things are not alright. I've had women tell me that it is very reassuring when they get accustomed to it. I have found it very intresting and useful behavior. No doubt that Jane Goodall was on to something or perhapsed more accurately the chimps were on to something.

Great post Doc..

Thanks,
Orangetom

in which we could talk about the physical/body language that is common across cultures and species.

One example is the female displaying her eyelids as a sign of sexual receptivity. Baboon females actually have brightly colored eyelids, so you can see from a distance what she's saying.

Funny how women in our culture put on "eye-shadow" that looks a lot like baboon coloration . . .

You just need to find your own "kerosene-cans"

Maybe a guitar?

this is a great story. So what can a guy use as his nuclear option? I take it that bringing a gas can to a club and banging it loudly will may make the women go away. Lets hash this out now?

The trick is, to find something that makes you unique, makes you stand out.

Jocks want to make it about muscle.

Richie Rich wants it to be about his money.

Remember (if you're old enough) the star trek training simulator, the Kobiayashi Maru; when there is no way to win, you must change the rules.

I don't know what you're good at; I don't know what would separate you from the pack.

---Breaking News-----

Actually, I've just decided on starting a new thread, to be called "how to find women (and helping them find you). go there and let's post it positively.

All this trouble, and all you really needed were two kerosene cans...

Aren't we helpful?

Seriously, great analogy....

The Analogy if I remember correctly used by Warren Farrell in his book "Why men are the way they are " is that females tend to go for the guy with the most percieved "Potential". The male who is able to give them Options. It may be money. ...survivability ..the "Jock " in school etc..etc. Combine this with the female status associated with the "P" word.."Potential" and you have a social structure.
Obviously the female chimps percieved this other chimp with the kerosene cans as having more "potential " than the other male chimps. He quickly became the rage or fashion by his ability to "peform successfully for female attention." Often incurring risk even at the cost of male life...at times...ie ....male disposability.
Warren posts more in his book and others he has written but this is the basic outline I recall.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Part of what primate troops are struggling against is a small population.

The males just don't go down to the water-hole and cut eyes at some females on their way home from work.

In a small, closed society, you already know everyone.

So if you decide you like Ponga, then you have to remember that her ex-boyfriend was Pan, who is a "second" for Washoe, who lately has been seen to challenge some of the Alpha's rights to the Beta females. If Washoe fails at his coup, then Ponga will be available. If Washoe succeeds . . . . .

See. That sucks. And most humans in history have lived in the small closed society of a troop. It's political. Luckily, most of us westerners now have unbridled access to "new" females that hold no ties to our pack.

The trouble is, we are still playing these games.

"Will everyone who judges me realize how hot she is? Will people be impressed? Will my mom think she's a slut? Maybe I want mom to be horrified by whom I copulate with . . ."

If those kind of thoughts seem shallow, that is what I see when I read posts like the one that started this thread. Young men with no real status (in other words, peripheral males) complaining about how they have no prospect of mates, and the only guys who are getting any are bungwholes. Obviously, no peripheral male ever got any by whining.

As someone (I think female) pointed out earlier in the thread, what does such a peripheral male bring to the table.

Here's where the advice starts getting specific.

Females are aware that the best prospect for rapidly increasing their status is to attach to a male who is rapidly improving his own status.

So, instead of picking a guy who is a junior executive in a law firm, who may get a shot at partner before he turns 50, she starts looking at this kid who never finished school, but plays the guitar.

Sure, the guitar player is a long-shot, but you never know. Especially if she thinks she's hot enough that she can find another junior executive next year if things don't pan out.

Here we go

Most women are not particularly astute at judging guitar-work, or abstract painting, or computer software, or whatever it is that a young peripheral male may be about to use in order to rapidly improve his status.

So, they just sort of "guess." Here's some of the things they look at:

- is this young "outsider male" fun to be with?

- Is he a rebel? does he seem to challenge the status quo? i.e., does he have a new style of art, music, software, or religion? Be the standout. If you go to a liberal school, be the lone republican. If you go to Bob Jones University, become a Christian Anarchist. If you go to a school with a great football team, but no fencing team, take up fencing.

- do other MALES acknowledge his potential? (Because it is other males who will be deciding his status.) Did he sell a painting? Has he got an appointment with a record executive? So, go on TV. Write an incindiary editorial to the school paper. Start your own pirate radio station. whatever. By the way, getting a write-up in the paper for your unorthodox dating of a local archaeological excavation is an excellent method. *ahem*. Never mind.

- Does he have an older, "retired" male mentor? This nugget of wisdom is actually very deep in our collective psyche. "The Karate Kid" had Mr. Muyagi. Arthur had Merlin. Luke Skywalker had Yoda. And all of them got cute girlfriends before they became central males, didn't they?

-Does he have a fan club? Remember in "16 candles," (I know, dating myself here), Farmer Ted is a geek, but he's still "king of the "dip-$***s." If you have males "under" you, then you are no longer a peripheral male, by definition. A friend of mine in college, a fellow anarchist (hey, it was the 80's) founded an "Anarchist Confederation." Which is idiotic, if you think about it. But it made the campus paper, and sure enough, the local cafe was full of chicks at the first meeting. Bastard. Traitor to the revolution.

Another friend of mine and I wanted to use the "open mike" on the mall to shout profanity at the crowd. But you had to have a campus organization to support you. So Scott became "President of the Founders' society." And I was billed as the "Founder of the President's Society." Or maybe it was the other way around. But sure enough, a couple of hotties showed up on Friday, to "learn about our organization."

-Is he secretly allied with an alpha male? Seriously. Make friends with a jock, even if he won't hang out with you or acknowledge you in public. Look at "16 candles" again. Hey, I know that John Hughes made nothing but teen movies, but they were hits because they spoke to teenagers in their own language. Remember Farmer Ted? He makes friends with the captain of the football team, sort of. Cap'n football hates his girlfriend, whom he is breaking up with. So Cap'n turns the girl over to Ted!!!!! That's right, a total geek gets to have real live sex with the prom queen! And the second time, she's even conscious, and loves it! Yes, it's a teen fantasy. But some people currently living have pulled this off in real life. Are you ever forced to be around jocks outside of school? Maybe in a church youth group, or in your community service program for troubled kids? Whatever. Use the chance to make friends with a guy who knows cheerleaders. Hey, it'll do more for your love-life than playing video games tonight ever will.

-Starving Artist persona. you should probably copy this, even if you're not an artist. Think about it. Those guys were all so poor they had to live on rice and beans, but they still got women. Why? Because the women realized (or imagined) that they had potential. I mean Van Gogh. Roy Orbison. Picasso. Sidney Pollack for Godsake: "I'm a mean old drunk, who spills paint on clean canvas and calls it art. Now come do me." All of them had some kind of romantic action, even though the world largely agreed their "art" sucked. At least until other guys saw how much ___ they were getting!

There, I've given y'all more ideas than you can possibly live out.

Your welcome. Please pay at the next window.


PS: Come to think of it, when Frau_Dr met me, I was living in a little garrett loft on campus that was slated for demolition once they could get the EPA to let them remove the lead paint. I was also a "rebel" in my graduate department, advocating that the dominant theory in my discipline was not correct, but merely accepted because no one had bothered to collect any contrary data. My classmates HATED me, and I caught more crap from them than I ever did from the profs. however, when Frau_dr's supervising professor told her to research my field, she said to go ask for both sides of the debate. When Frau_dr asked who had the "other side" of the debate, my Department Head mentioned my name. The guy whom I thought was the Alpha Bungwhole. So, Frau dr was sent by her department head to come visit me . . .

and now you know the rest of the story. Good Day.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
-Starving Artist persona. you should probably copy this, even if you're not an artist. Think about it. Those guys were all so poor they had to live on rice and beans, but they still got women. Why? Because the women realized (or imagined) that they had potential. I mean Van Gogh. Roy Orbison. Picasso. Sidney Pollack for Godsake: "I'm a mean old drunk, who spills paint on clean canvas and calls it art. Now come do me." All of them had some kind of romantic action, even though the world largely agreed their "art" sucked. At least until other guys saw how much ___ they were getting!

Social status yes.. breeding status as well. Even if a woman has no intention of having kids she'll still size up a guys stud potential.. talent is hereditory. If a guy has worked his way to a high social status.. he probably has intellect so his offspring probably will have too.

I'm wondering.. we've talked about all the things attractive women value in a partner. 'How to increase a losers chances of getting laid without going bankrupt'.. someone mentioned a woman's 'value' going down has she gets older..
Don't men [in general] value things other than looks? Why don't men want the fantasy of a female musician serenading them? The charactor of a woman seems to have no real social status whatsoever short of novelty value. I could work out the mysteries of the universe and cure cancer yet still to a potential mate my looks would be the priority and my status would still be below someone who's spent a fortune getting fake breasts. I am an 'alpha female' and I concede that it is probably because of my looks.. however if I were a guy it would probably be because of my talent. Is this cultural or biological? Don't men [disclaimer.. in general] have at least some reproductive drive to find a mate with more than just looks?! Most women have a long list for 'inner qualities' they'd like in a man.. yet to many men this doesn't seem very relevent. Kind of annoying.

See Orangetom.. I finnally winged like a woman.

When Frau_dr asked who had the "other side" of the debate, my Department Head mentioned my name. The guy whom I thought was the Alpha Bungwhole. So, Frau dr was sent by her department head to come visit me . . .

and now you know the rest of the story. Good Day.

Awww

[edit on 4-11-2005 by riley]

Good Grief....I am agreeing with you again.

YOu often see me making the point in some of these rooms..what a dumb bunch of men!!!!!

What I have noticed is that the number one requirement for most of the men posting in these rooms is sex/looks or some combination.

The facts are that most men are capable of taking care of thier own security needs. Hence the requirement for most is fiinding ways to take care of their "Oil Shortage " . Even in long term relationships many men never outgrow this mentality. It is so one dimensional. Their actual requirements of a woman are so low...and obviously many of the posters in a room like this cannot even get that "low " requirement met. This is thier main " status " requirement from a female. Talk about a dumb bunch of men. Their attention spand doesnt seem to function well outside this arena. This is why I also often say ..when you throw the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition in front of most men ..thier brainwave pattern ..flatlines. Not very enlightening to me. Many are dumb enough to call this Love.

On the other hand ..with most women ..you do not usually find women marrying or dating down the status ladder. Particularly the economic ladder. Women who have moneys usually want a man who has the potential or the means to get more....status is very important to many here. They are not looking to maintain a man in this manner as a career opportunity/option.
Though I was not a fan of hers ..the now deceased Marilyn Monroe was obvious in her marrying up the food chain so to speak. Trophy men. This happens among women of "enligntment " more than most are aware. Once again ..do women who have the means of their security marry or take up with a man for love only as a status or do they want more...the traditional status/baggage...and call this ..love???

Thanks,
Orangetom

scienceguy94,

You don't like it? - Then join another species!

Frankly you are coming off as shallow as any of those other u r complaing about.

Either start working out and educating yourself to make yourself worth dating or go out and build yourself a better woman.

Plus maybe its your complaining and lack of ambition thats making yourself unattractive not to mention poor.

You don't like "uglies" - well they don't like whiny broke a$$ Mo Fo's - deal wit it.

Originally posted by scienceguy94
I am sick of it. These days you need to have money or else you are relegated to dating uglies and retards. face it guys you have got to have money to attract a decent woman.

Not true, women you are talking about are ugly in heart. pretty girls with a pretty heart are around your just not in the right frame of mind to find them.

The simplest things can melt a woman's heart if you put your heart into it.
Whether it be cooking an authentic dinner like an italian dish, even a bbq is enjoyable, drinks by the fire, surprising her with a picnic or taking a day off to spend all day w/ her, or even just sitting down to a movie.
If you don't have any money at all, turn on the charm, a woman will always melt if you take her in your arms and whisk her away in your kisses ect. There is nothing better then to be left breathless,speechless, and numb.

edit: the guy mentioned the guitar is a great idea. I remember my previous boyfriend was a muscian, I loved sitting on the couch with him watching him strum songs and singing to me, he would even let me hit a few strings if we both knew what song it was. such small things in life pepole take much pleasure in, it's spending time with that person that makes it great. If you have NO personality, no charm/humor/romance in you, you might as well be just one of those guy that buys his way into a woman's heart.
But I can tell you that relationship won't last long, and you'll end up back at square one again, competely miserable and feeling love is hopeless.



[edit on 4-11-2005 by TrueLies]

Do men OR women become attracted to anything besides status?

All the time. If you have worked in a close-knit office, platoon, etc., you know how equals will "trade around," basically having a serial orgy in terms of eventually, over time, having sex with just about everybody.

I can remember a colleague who was exteremely knowledgeable in my field, who was sort of snotty and unfriendly, that I was a bit sexually attracted to. Looking back, I know it was completely an intellectual turn on, that she was that good of an expert. Probably also that she made a point of being unfriendly. What you can't have, and all that. I met her again after I had married and moved away, and the colleague had gotten married, too. I was startled to see her at a convention. She didn't look anything like I rememebered. I'm sure I had been looking at her through rose-colored glasses. It's not that she'd put on weight. Quite the opposite. But when I was attracted to her, she seemed hotter. Or at all.

A friend of mine claims that when you are in love, you imagine the beloved is better at whatever they actually lack. So if she is smart, you start to think she's pretty. If she's hot, you start to think she's kind of smart "in her own way."

Status is a lot less important to men AND women who are secure in their self-image. And that doesn't require money at all. The neuveau riche will always need an exotic-dancer wife, regardless of how rich they get. The guy who is basically happy with his life just wants someone who will laugh at his jokes. People who are satisfied with themselves want someone to entertain them.

honestly, it could be about social class. Just thinking of my previous g/f. She was a lovely person, but she didn't really fit in with my family and friends. She had lived in one place her whole life. She preferred eating off of paper plates to the china. She never wanted to dress up. Her idea of a party was a buncha people with beer out at the lake.

In contrast, Frau Dr matches my family more than she does her own. Similar interests, education. I frequently am relieved that she "presents" well. By that I mean she looks at home in an evening gown. She can make small-talk interesting, and she can tell an oyster fork froma salad fork. All of which is trivial, I know. but it is important not to feel embarrased by your lover. On a deeper level, she has multiple skills, and enjoys learning about the world. She can hang out with my family and friends without it being work.

There you have it. I think Dr_Strangecraft's given you ample info to ensure your success in scoring some chimp action. Which it's probably a good idea to work your way up to actual human gorgeous endowed babedom. Keep wailing away on those cans and before you know it, you'll have arrived at the pinnacle. A Hooter's waitress.

I was doing quite well reading Dr Strangecraft's post and agree with his statement about people who are secure in thier image..and status is not so important to them.

That is,however, till I read your post concering Hooters waitresses. I about spit out my spoonful of soup in laughter.

Bravo...well said.

There must be something wrong with me however..I have never had any ambition to go to Hooters for anything and havent done so to this day.
But your sumation is right on target...and very funny.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Hooters restaurants is the worst place to pick up hooters girls. there they get asked out all the time by guys. It might be smart to find out where hooters girls hang out after work.