OP/ED: Freedom? What Freedom?

Which is another major problem, Jeff.

They have people believing that to be a good "citizen" you have to do what your Government says and never speak out against it. I honestly seeing it getting a lot worse before it gets better.

as posted by Odium
They have people believing that to be a good "citizen" you have to do what your Government says and never speak out against it. I honestly seeing it getting a lot worse before it gets better.

Erm, Odium, I would beg to somewhat differ?
You have left out one important freedom, and that is the 'freedom to disagree or to dissent'. Freedom means nothing without dissent or the ability to freely disagree. As such, being a good citizen does not entirely rest on the premise that one has to do what the Government says or dictates.





seekerof

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Ox
And thats the problem right there.. "Big Business" Do you know what it costs just to run for a city council seat? About $10,000 U.S. (In the city I live in anyway)

Money is power.. Greed is everything.. Are there ways to get people like that out of office? Sure there is.. It's happening right now.. but it takes time.. There's other ways.. but they can be costly if your caught..

Jeff

Agreed. It seems more and more these days that government and big business are one in the same. I fear that this continued partnership will ultimately be our downfall. I watched a segment on 60 minutes about large corporations getting more and more involved in the private lives of their employees. One example was a corporation firing employees who smoke cigarettes. They are given random breathalyzers and if tested positive, they are fired on the spot. There are virtually no laws [in the U.S. anyway] to protect the average citizen from being fired on a whim. Sure, there are some anti-discriminatory laws present, but they don't cover everything.

One could certainly argue that if you don't like it, don't work there. But what happens when this trend catches on? What about the people who worked for this firm 15+ years who are now unemployed because they did something perfectly legal and on their own time? Also, what the government can't put a stop to via law enforcement they can now enforce through monetary incentives in the corporate world [tax breaks and so on]. We have two major entities working together to control our thoughts, our behavior and our lives. Of course, I'm not stating anything new. It just seems at times like a giant snowball rolling down the hill into infinity.

I would like to close this "rant" by giving this editorial a big thumbs up. It is well articulated and well thought out. It sure is nice to read something based on reality and logical thought as opposed to the typical cranial junk food found on the net. :-)

Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by Odium
They have people believing that to be a good "citizen" you have to do what your Government says and never speak out against it. I honestly seeing it getting a lot worse before it gets better.

Erm, Odium, I would beg to somewhat differ?
You have left out one important freedom, and that is the 'freedom to disagree or to dissent'. Freedom means nothing without dissent or the ability to freely disagree. As such, being a good citizen does not entirely rest on the premise that one has to do what the Government says or dictates.

seekerof

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Seekerof]

I see this as part of Political Parties and Speech myself, so I didn't give it its own section however I do have a fair bit of information on it and knowledge of it.

Back in April 2000, the European Parliament approved the Dimitrakopoulos-Leinen Report. This report actually [Article 6] makes it clear that "parties that do not respect human rights and democratic principles as set out in the Treaty of Rome shall be the subject of suspension proceedings in the European Court of Justice"

So although people might have the freedom to say they disagree, this actually allows political parties to be banned if they do not uphold and agree with the Treaty of Rome.

So in a democratic society, where the parties are banned no matter what you say you can't change things. It's a fantastic piece of legislation on the basis that it controls us without us even knowing about it. These "rogue" parties will never get in the news and will never be put on a ballot box. In fact this is something the U.S.S.R. did. They banned all political parties but their own and allowed votes to happen between different members of the same party.

What happens when these European Wide Political parties begin to form?

The European Union will be another United States and in the long run, I believe [from their actions] they will be another fachist state.

Love your work Odium

Affluence=Influence

Came to read this after checking out some material about the Patriot act...and this cheered my up mate. Glad to know there are still people who care.

Originally posted by Odium
I see this as part of Political Parties and Speech myself, so I didn't give it its own section however I do have a fair bit of information on it and knowledge of it.

You may have a valid point, but I inferred such as being a separate freedom.
At any rate, they do intermix, so in a sense, in general, we are both on the right track.

What happens when these European Wide Political parties begin to form?

That I am unsure of, Odium.

The European Union will be another United States and in the long run, I believe [from their actions] they will be another fachist state.

I would have a tendency to agree, but something in me wonders if there will be a EU in the future to be concerned with such. Some political and European analysts feel that the EU will dissolve. The CIA even went as far as to predict such by 2020.


Good OP/ED piece though, Odium.
Very thought provoking given with an interesting perspective.





seekerof

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Seekerof]

Glad you like it Seekerof, however I am not so sure about the C.I.A's Statements. It seems with each passing year the divide on E.U. or Not is getting more split so they can attempt to force the legislation through.

It is sad to say but it seems the older generation do not want it and give it 20 years and they'll be no more.

Freedom- I agree is an illusion. But- with freedom comes responsiblity. So is populism dead- or have the elite captured the propaganda machine to make you think you have freedom? Are populists against diversity? Does melting pot diversity benefit society?

Sorry, this brings up more questions than answers for me. I am just as free to walk out of this corporate prison as I am to getting fired for abandoning my post-

Is it my choice to be bombarded with advertisements? Is one third of my wages (fed tax $)really going to fight the war on terror? Is my insurance going to help pay for me to get well, or just prevent me from dying? Am I free to use my insurance for prevention of illness, or just treatment of disease?

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energy policy for the wrong century
how much abuse constitutes torture (answer)anything but organ failure- ie death

[edit on 2-11-2005 by accountability]

Thanks FreeThinking1..

And it's true. Government and Corporations are slowly becoming one in the same.. For many reasons.. Corportations arent standing up against the government bull that is handed down to them..

As for the smoking and firing thing.. Well there was a story out of Japan a few months ago where a corporation over there was telling its employee's to divorce their spouses.. just divorce.. they may live together still.. Those who did not divorce were ultimately fired.. This is control of the worst kind.. Also known as DICTATION.. Which. I'm afraid to say we're not far from, because of the political choices that some people have made..

As I said.. We, belong to this earth.. not own it.. We need to realise that before we all destroy ourselves.. When will enough be enough? When poverty reigns? When death is begged for? When we have to fight animals for our food? It needs to end now..

Good one Odium. Thanks.

...Yes, re: boiling the frog. It is that, isn't it?

And yes, government and corporations are becoming one and the same. I'm thinking the Corporate States of North America, for starters.


.

I agree with everyone here.

odium I think the govt is DEFINTELY trying to create the norms and stuff.

Money is power in this country

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist06
I agree with everyone here.

odium I think the govt is DEFINTELY trying to create the norms and stuff.

Money is power in this country

Glad more than me notice this.

It is something I worry about, I think the people not the Police need to correct them for their actions if they harm nobody. If they wish to keep doing these actions and do not harm anyone, so be it.

If it was up to the Government, homosexuality and many other things would be illegal and still illegal to this day. It is a World I really do worry about coming into existance.

A Police State where nobody notices that they are in one...except those who get removed.

I just saw a bumper sticker that read

"killing one person is murder, Killing thousands is foreign policy"

Let the truth be spoken, print or otherwise be told..

Jeff

Originally posted by Ox

"killing one person is murder, Killing thousands is foreign policy"

Thanks for that one.

Odium - Great thread, and good work.

Seems we need not to take our freedoms for granted...

What freedoms do you have to take for granted?
The fact that you get up in the morning to go to work? to pay the government taxes.. money that you work hard for? If you dont pay them these taxes.. where do you end up? Without freedom in a state penitentiary.. It's a joke.. Sorry G.W. But there is no price, should not be any price on freedom you dingleberry..

I dont like the president.. And I hope he knows..

What freedoms do you have to take for granted?
The fact that you get up in the morning to go to work? to pay the government taxes.. money that you work hard for? If you dont pay them these taxes.. where do you end up? Without freedom in a state penitentiary.. It's a joke.. Sorry G.W. But there is no price, should not be any price on freedom you dingleberry..

I dont like the president.. And I hope he knows..

What freedoms do you have to take for granted?
The fact that you get up in the morning to go to work? to pay the government taxes.. money that you work hard for? If you dont pay them these taxes.. where do you end up? Without freedom in a state penitentiary.. It's a joke.. Sorry G.W. But there is no price, should not be any price on freedom you dingleberry..

I dont like the president.. And I hope he knows..

Originally posted by Odium
The European Union will be another United States and in the long run, I believe [from their actions] they will be another fachist state.

I don't think it's possible to unite Europe into one superstate without forcing it, which requires fascism. There's simply too many totally diffrent cultures involved.
So I definately agree that that's what they're pushing for, and have been ever since the Coal and Steel Union was formed.

The EU is a perfect example of conditioning, fabian socialism.
First it was the Coal and Steel Union, then the European Economic Community (one of Hitlers ideas for after the war BTW), then the European Community and now it's the European Union.

I personally am not happy about the fact that my country is already basicly run by foreign unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

So I don't think the United States of Europe will end up being any better than the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany.

"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer!" is beginning to sound more and more familiar.

Youve got my WATS vote Great article! well doneup:

SwearBear, you hit on some of the most important points.

Europe is different...each Nation has a different culture and the idea of the European Union is slowly changing these cultures - year by year. One example if the push for English to be the language of the European Union. [Seen a report on it on C4 not long ago.]

I think in the end they will force the English language onto the whole of Europe and many other views which do not 'suit' these cultures, forcing them into one 'hybrid' culture.