Race and Sports

I recently got into a discussion with a roommate regarding the “domination” of black athletes in sports. I am not an expert on this by any means, but from my understanding of evolution I have come to the current conclusion that our genetic makeup stemming from tens of thousands of years of evolution has caused certain gene superiorities in different races if you will. In writing this I am also doing research to either confirm or enlighten my understanding of this topic. I figured it would be a good discussion for the board in light of recent events and a good second post for moi.

To give you a little background my roommate believes that the athletic “dominance” you see today is a byproduct of slave breeding. He believes that (African) slaves were bread to produce stronger, healthier slaves to work in the field and that the athleticism you see today in blacks is a direct result of that. While I do not deny that this took place, I cannot locate any information to review on what scale this occurred, nor do I feel the short time span in which this took place would allow for such genetic differences to occur, again its my belief and understanding that these physical differences in human genetic makeup takes tens of thousands of years to evolve. What say you?


[edit on 30-10-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

Be careful what you say here as this was the downfall of Jimmy the Greek! Seriously, I can see where you are coming from but I think there are many other factors involved here. I believe that there are economic and social factors that play a roll as well. This is an interesting topic but it's one that is hard to discuss without the race issue comming to the surface. It can be a sensitive issue but if handled correctly it could be interesting.

No I understand. Too bad people are more concerned over being politically correct then a legitimate discussion regarding science. To make those with a racial conscious feel better I am white and my roommate is black, well half black and white. This is a serious and legitimate discussion and im not into playing the politically correct game. Others should respect the science behind the arguments and not turn them into racial issues.

If we look at sprinting its primaraly West african is it not?

The east africans are better at longer distance running.

Black people are not the only ones who have been slaves at some point. it may be true, im not an expert.

As i understand it, it is true that west african people have more fast twitch muscle fibre than others generally.

I am very sketchy though, i havent really looked at it but its a start.

This is what I found in my research.

All muscle contains two kinds of fibres - fast-twitch and slow-twitch. The former is good at producing explosive bursts of energy, the latter at sustaining muscle effort over long periods. Physiologists have shown that the muscles of Kenyan athletes have a higher proportion of slow-twitch fibres than those of white or West African athletes. Kenyans also enjoy a slighter body profile, have relatively longer legs and larger lung capacities, and possess more energy-producing enzymes in their muscles which are better able to utilise oxygen.

Athletes of West African descent - which include most African American, Caribbean and black British athletes - have, on the other hand, a physique which is suited to explosive events, requiring sprinting and jumping. Such athletes possess what biologists call a mesomorphic physique with bigger, more visible muscles including a larger chest. Their muscles contain a higher proportion of fast-twitch fibres than do whites or East Africans. Athletes of West African descent also possess less body fat, a higher centre of gravity, narrower hips, and higher levels of testosterone in their blood."

LINK

As far as my logic is concerned this is a genetic difference that has to do with the evolution of a specific race over tens of thousands of years. This difference has to do with climate, way of life among other things I'm sure, but as I stated I am no expert by any means. I hardly attribute it to slave breeding, but if someone can shed light on the subject?





[edit on 30-10-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

The Western African tribals are truely amazing Human specimines in just what they can do. By continueing to live a primitive lifestyle they are still most like our Hunter Gatherer ansetors, something which we only learn about in History books yet these people live it every day of their lives (and seem genuinly happy about their lot in life too) It is not surprising to me one bit that they would outperform whites in many physical aspects. I'm kind of envious in a way.

As for the fast twitch muscle fibre count in Africans, it diserves more study as I want faster reflexes dammit! We could quite literally find out some very usefull stuff out of such studies.

I hardly attribute it to slave breeding, but if someone can shed light on the subject?

Neither would I and I'm not expert either. I attribute it to the fact that Genetically speaking they have not changed that much from their Hunter Gatherer tribal ancestors all that much. Some tribes STILL live the same way they have been living for thousands possible tens of thousands of years. It's like looking back in time in a way.

[edit on 30-10-2005 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1
athletic “dominance” you see today is a byproduct of slave breeding. He believes that (African) slaves were bread to produce stronger

Then why do african african's tend to do so well in sports?

From what I understand, 'blacks' tend to have more " fast twitch muscle fibers' than 'whites'. (also see here (there is a pop up window tho) and especially here and here for a good explanation).

Of course, this sort of thing is not constant, not all people that would be considered 'black' have this ratio, for example. And also, fast twitch fibres wouldn't be good for endurance competition, but kenyans seem to allways win the marathons.

Originally posted by sardion2000
The Western African tribals are truely amazing Human specimines in just what they can do. By continueing to live a primitive lifestyle they are still most like our Hunter Gatherer ansetors, something which we only learn about in History books yet these people live it every day of their lives (and seem genuinly happy about their lot in life too) It is not surprising to me one bit that they would outperform whites in many physical aspects. I'm kind of envious in a way.
[edit on 30-10-2005 by sardion2000]

The east africans still live in tribes too. so there is no real difference there. wouldt attribute it to tribal lifestyle.

It is something that relates to human origins and how we spread out over the planet, and whether we originate from one source or not.
so i am quite interested in it is suppose.


The link about fast twitch/slow twitch is what i had learned too.

Of course, this sort of thing is not constant, not all people that would be considered 'black' have this ratio, for example.

Yeah, im not saying all blacks are dominant, just pointing out that on a consistent basis your superior athletes are a majority black and there’s a genetic reason for that. I was just trying to show him that it was an evolutionary issue on a grand scale and not a slavery breeding issue. It’s my understanding that we are physically different due to evolution because of climate and or way of life. I’m sure these aren’t the only factors, but my logic tells me they are the huge ones!

Well I don't know much about East African tribes but in the West tribals need to be able to scale 50 foot trees and run short distances really fast in order to gather food. This one tribe in particular used the flimsiest looking bow you can imagine with a dart like arrow tipped in some of the worlds deadliest poison that came from a common wildflower it could drop just about anything if it pierced the skin (including Humans )

They need to adapt to their surroundings and living like that for tens of thousands of years will have an effect on their gene pool. For us city dwellers the Farmers and Herders would have to adapt differently after living like that for more then a thousand years. When did the first cities pop up again I forget what it is now after so many revisions lol? Nature and Nuture both play key roles I believe.

I guess my point is our incessant need to create our own environments must have had some effect on the gene pool.

[edit on 30-10-2005 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by sardion2000
Well I don't know much about East African tribes but in the West tribals need to be able to scale 50 foot trees and run short distances really fast in order to gather food. This one tribe in particular used the flimsiest looking bow you can imagine with a dart like arrow tipped in some of the worlds deadliest poison that came from a common wildflower it could drop just about anything if it pierced the skin (including Humans

)

They need to adapt to their surroundings and living like that for tens of thousands of years will have an effect on their gene pool. For us city dwellers the Farmers and Herders would have to adapt differently after living like that for more then a thousand years. When did the first cities pop up again I forget what it is now after so many revisions lol? Nature and Nuture both play key roles I believe.

I guess my point is our incessant need to create our own environments must have had some effect on the gene pool.

[edit on 30-10-2005 by sardion2000]

I understand. Im sure it does.
But the argument its because of tribal living doesnt stand imo.
Theres more to it than that

I totally agree there’s more to it, but way of life over tens of thousands of years has to have an influence on the gene pool for a species or race. I am leaving work now, but I hope someone with a similar mindset as my roommates can bring in a different perspective to the latter point of this topic.





[edit on 30-10-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

There are two sports that I do not see a dominance of African-American influence, and that is figure skating and auto racing.

Auto-racing is a perserverance sport. The longer one can "hang in there", the better the athlete. Recruitment has a lot to do with how long a driver can endure what can often be grueling conditions. Intense doesn't begin to describe it. (Please save the "auto racing isn't a sport" debate for another time)

As for figure skating...well, I see a lot of Asians and Europeans, but not many African-Americans.

And what about hockey? There aren't many there, either.

Originally posted by Rouschkateer
There are two sports that I do not see a dominance of African-American influence, and that is figure skating

And what about hockey? There aren't many there, either.

That seems to be general for all cold weather sports. Hockey, Skiing,Skating, Snowboarding etc... Along with pretty much all water sports Swimming, Water polo, Diving etc... Lets not even get into extreme sports.

There is no Black domination in sports, there is Black domination in some sports and White domination in others.

#1 High Jump White - Sweden
#1 Triple Jump White - Sweden
#1 Men's Decathlon White - Europe
#1 Women's Heptathlon White - Sweden
Virtually all strongmen competitors are white
Swimming, cyclist, gymnastic, ice hockey, skiing, and the list goes on but you get the idea. It has to do with tradition and sociological factors.
How many black people do you see in the winter Olympic? It just doesn't have so much to do with "genetics" they are too equal to make up for these differences.

Oh, and 400 meter dash Olympic Champion 2004 is white - USA. 110 meter hurdles Olympic Champion 2004 is Chinese. BTW expect China to dominate 2008 Olympic games in Beijing.

www.athens2004.com...

[edit on 31-10-2005 by Raabjorn]

[edit on 31-10-2005 by Raabjorn]

Wnen I was going to school for avionics, another student was from Kenya. He was the fastest little guy I have ever seen. My full-steam-ahead, give'er all she's got sprint was not even as fast as his no-hurry lope. He is not decended from slavery. He could've ran Tony Dorsette down, stripped him of the fottball, ran back for a touchdown and not even have broke a weat of breathed hard.

[edit on 31-10-2005 by Thomas Crowne]

I am by no means an expert on any of this but as I was reading this thread I thought about looking at the lifestyle of the races and diet came to mind. Perhaps that would be worth looking into also ?

Probably nothing there, but just a thought as I am sure their diet has consisted of more wholesome foods that are more nutritional for the body as opposed to general western diets, today and many moons ago

Then how come blacks don't dominate the UFC?

I would look at the ratio of blacks in the UFC, and then I would look at the type of skill that's needed. Speed and agility are not huge factors in the UFC IMHO. I mean you can have a lot of speed and agility, but there’s not very much room to go anywhere so one solid shot or grapple can do you in.

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1
I recently got into a discussion with a roommate regarding the “domination” of black athletes in sports. I am not an expert on this by any means, but from my understanding of evolution I have come to the current conclusion that our genetic makeup stemming from tens of thousands of years of evolution has caused certain gene superiorities in different races if you will. In writing this I am also doing research to either confirm or enlighten my understanding of this topic. I figured it would be a good discussion for the board in light of recent events and a good second post for moi.

To give you a little background my roommate believes that the athletic “dominance” you see today is a byproduct of slave breeding. He believes that (African) slaves were bread to produce stronger, healthier slaves to work in the field and that the athleticism you see today in blacks is a direct result of that. While I do not deny that this took place, I cannot locate any information to review on what scale this occurred, nor do I feel the short time span in which this took place would allow for such genetic differences to occur, again its my belief and understanding that these physical differences in human genetic makeup takes tens of thousands of years to evolve. What say you?


[edit on 30-10-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

Black people are superior to whites in certain kinds of sports only.

The reason blacks are superior in certain sports is that they have longer bones and muscles.

The reason blacks have longer bones and muscles is that a) less mass is exposed to sun rays and heat, b) body deflects heat easier, c) body moves faster, d) body is easier hydrated.

If one studies the human shapes from Africa all the way to the Eskimoes, he/she will see that, the more north people live, the less thin they become. As you travel to the north, you will see a) arms and legs getting smaller and fatter b) hands getting wider and fingers getting fatter, c) hair getting thinner and more 'white', d) noses getting longer and thinner, e) lips getting thinner.

Eskimoes are flabby types that can do almost do sport at all. The reason for this is that they need to expose a very large skin surface, in order to get as much sun as they can...where African people need to deflect heat, so their body's surface must be as less as possible.

Of course, in our day and age, there are social issues that play a role on how people look. Some societies have managed to eliminate hunger or terminal diseases, so their offsprings are healthier, taller and better athletes.

Another worthwhile thing to note is that American blacks are not like African blacks at all. American blacks have lighter skin, they are much taller, and their facial characteristics are less striking than those of african people. Slave breeding must have played a role, as well as the wealth of American society.

We should also do not underestimate the social factor in sports: many poor black kids coming from the ghetto do not have many opportunities in life other than sports...so a larger part of the black population in America is in sports, whereas whites traditionally follow other disciplines.

Last, but not least, is the sports technology available in western countries: better ways to train, better chemicals, better food, more scientific preparation.

As a conclusion, I would like to say here that blacks will dominate solo sports that require speed. All other sports that require strategic thought, team play, are open to whites in the same degree as in blacks.

Basketball's greatest players were black: Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan are remembered not only about their leaping ability or no-look passes, but about their strategic and commanding abilities, the way they read the game, the way they inspired and motivated their teammates...same qualities as the third greatest player of all times, Larry Bird, a white man.

But, on the other hand, we see NBA teams and the USA 'dream team' consistently beaten the last few years in international basketball competitions by all-white teams. Recently, Maccabi Tel Aviv managed to beat the Toronto Raptors for the first time in history. If black physical superiority was the dominant factor in sports, these defeats would never have taken place.