Gods law

has the church corrupted the laws of God?

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Is churchianity wrong?

'Churchianity' I often say 'churchians,' but I've never heard anyone else say that.

I don't think 'wrong' is the way I look at it--I see 'right' and 'wrong' as judgment calls that lie far beyond my scope of jurisdiction. BUT I have no doubt, at all, in my heart of hearts, that the whole idea of 'christianity' is not at all what it is believed to be, by both its followers and otherwise, all over the world. It has come to my understanding that it is the 'strong delusion' which Paul warned about in 2 Thessalonians. And this came with much dismay, I assure you--I never could 'unsee' now what I see--that I hadn't even had a glimpse of because it had been hidden from the possibility of anyone's understanding up until just recently. It is 'that wicked revealed.' Not some individually outstanding evil man--'The Antichrist'--but the religion that uses the name 'Christ' in no way is on His side (I do not mean the followers, but the forces behind the delusion, not people, but powers and principalities in high places.) The reason it is not following God's laws is demonstrated in its group configuration, and its manipulation of scripture--each listening to others, instead of God alone--and confusing 'worship' (adoration for God) with 'fellowship' (comfort for ourselves). We cannot listen to God 'en masse.' It is a one-on-one experience for each of us, without exception. After we get to know Him, He blesses us with the comraderie of His other scattered people.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

(Genesis 22:1-2)
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Now, the word translated as 'tempt' is not the most accurate for the word 'nasah'--it is, more accurately, 'test' in the sense of 'prove'. God wanted to prove Abram's heart toward God--was Abram truly of good faith? Not as in
'believing in God' but as in being a soul who would keep the 'faith' and 'charge' of God. Of course God knew he was, but I feel that God 'proves' us for our own benefit of being sure where we stand in our loyalty to Him. This is how He both teaches us and blesses us (although at the time it often seems like a curse).

The word 'nasah' is spelled nun-samech-he; which, according to the representation of each character paints a word picture of soul (nun) - divine presence/support and holy of holies (samech) - spirit/breath of
God (he).
Our souls are given support by the breath/Spirit of God--and Abraham's experience on Mt. Moriah led to a promise fulfilled regarding access to the holy of holies some 4000 or so years later!

God's promise regarding Messiah and the blessing extended to 'every family in the world' had nothing to do with 'laws and statutes'--because God knows far better than we do that we are incapable of understanding God's laws, in their essence, let alone following them of our own volition! God gave His Son because Abraham was willing to give his own:

(Genesis 22:10-12)
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

And so, the vow God made, voluntarily upon His own name:

(Genesis 22:15-18)
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

(If you read up on the laws in Leviticus regarding 'freewill offerings' and the fulfillment of vows made voluntarily, you will see that God followed His own statutes to the letter in every way.)

To 'obey' God's voice is not necessarily the same as obeying His laws and statutes--although certainly important, it is not always 'obeying' His voice--those laws are relayed to us, oftentimes, by those who came before us, who knew
because they were told by those wqho preceded them. Only by hearkening to God's voice, individually, as it comes from inside in a small soft whisper, just as we read of in 1 Kings:

(1 Kings 19:11-13)
And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there
came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

King David served God with a 'perfect heart, and advised Solomon to follow suit:'

(1Chronicles 28:9) And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a
perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Solomon's downfall was idolatry--the transgression the only 'unforgivable sin'--not hearkening to the voice of God, and God alone (we have this in the Holy Spirit, all of us--Solomon had access for the whole nation, and so when he didn't listen, the whole nation suffered the consequences--this was a type of Christ for us to learn about the importance of a King obedient to God.)

(2 Chronicles 25:1-2)
One can follow the laws and statutes, but not be perfect in their heart toward God:Amaziah was twenty and five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was
Jehoaddan of Jerusalem. And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, but not with a perfect heart.

Adam and Eve didn't listen to God's voice, only--and so they lost that privilege and help for all of us--for the time determined. Then the Word came manifest in a man called Jesus, and those who had not heeded what God had said, through His voice of the prophets, 'knew not the time of their visitation.'

See John 5:36-47, Luke 19:41-44, also 1 Samuel 8:7, and the 28 and 30 chapters of Deuteronomy.

[edit on 10/30/2005 by queenannie38]

We can know right and wrong. We are told the difference by God. Now lying is either wrong or right. Murder is either wrong or right. Man is tainted by sin so that is why God tells us right and wrong, so that we know. It's a copeout to claim that there is no way to know right and wrong. It also lets mankind of the hook for the sins we do.

Becoming a christian brings with it accountability and responsibility. It requires us to repent(turn away from sin) and accept the changes the Holy Spirit will reveal to us that we need to make.

Originally posted by dbrandt
We can know right and wrong.

Who said we couldn't? Do you really read what I write, or just see my name and leap to reply due to indoctrinated reflexes? What I said was:

Originally posted by queenannie38
I don't think 'wrong' is the way I look at it--I see 'right' and 'wrong' as judgment calls that lie far beyond my scope of jurisdiction.

Do you understand my point, with that statement? Specifically I am saying that to say 'churchianity' is wrong, in general, is not within my God-given right to decree--all that lies within my sphere of true responsibility is the discernment which I can only apply to myself according to what I understand is 'my lot in life.' I can not say what is wrong for me is wrong for another--or right, either. That is judgment and it is unrighteous judgment, considering all I have to go on is material viewpoints, or IOW, 'fleshly' judgments.

We are told the difference by God.

Are you talking OT or NT? Because there are about as many different words translated as 'wrong' as there are incidents of such in the OT--and the NT translates a word that basically means 'injustice/unrighteousness' as 'wrong.' As far as that goes, I can agree. It is all about equity (the opposite of iniquity). But if that were what you understood 'wrong' to be, you wouldn't have such an aversion to the idea that God loves everyone, not just christians--even enough to save every last one of us. According to the bible, selective salvation is unrighteousness, or iniquity--and therefore, technically 'wrong' in God's view.

Now lying is either wrong or right.

Of course lying is always false and therefore the opposite of true (which, in some ways = 'right' as truth is always correct.) But, then again--do we apply what's 'right' and 'wrong' as judgments toward what God does? Although God will never lie to us, He has allowed a delusion to seed and grow, for His ultimate purpose, of course--but the bottom line is that God allowed something 'wrong' for the eventual 'good' He intends.

Here are some verses worth contemplation:

(Isaiah 66:1)
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

(Be sure and read verses 3-5, too--if not the whole chapter)

Stephen echoed the same in the speech that earned him a martyr's crown at the hand of the Jews--who put more faith in their temple than in their God:

(Acts 7:48-51)
Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things? Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

And, yet still, the institution of 'churchianity' is largely defined and/or dependent upon a physical place of meeting--into which money is invested, rather than being spent as 'alms'--which is surely not 'right' in the eyes of God--what kind of service is that qualified as, in regard to serving others? It only serves the self-designated individual 'churches' in every way--evangelizing on the horrors of hell is not 'visiting the widows and the fatherless.' It is basically diversionary tactics, on the group participant level.

Do you think God suddenly changed His mind after 4000 years of churchians killing His prophets and messengers? Do you think there is any difference than the Pharisees and Jews of the time--aside from a different name--one that gets it validity from the Greek name for Messiah? 'Christ' is not the LORD's name--neither did God give the name--the 'gentiles' coined it and Constantine capitalized upon it. The world, in general, 'doth not consider' the whole picture--it's easier to judge a book by its cover.

Murder is either wrong or right.

Once again, is that according to our limits--or God's? Elijah certainly murdered a number of people, according to scripture, and Samuel made a bloody mess of Agag, the king of the Amakelites--whose life Saul spared in disobedience to the LORD:

(1 Samuel 15:32-33)
Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past. And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

Now--does that make God 'wrong?' Or is He a 'sinner?' Or could it be that 'His ways are not our ways?'

Man is tainted by sin so that is why God tells us right and wrong, so that we know.

Man is more than tainted--he is dead, as far as the Spirit is concerned. God does tell us all we need to know--if we listen, that is. But unless we hearken to His voice, we cannot hear what He says. And for those who do not listen for God--He has sent a 'strong delusion that they should believe a lie' for the express purpose of punishment (condemnation) of those who 'believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.'

It's a copeout to claim that there is no way to know right and wrong. It also lets mankind of the hook for the sins we do.

How is being aware of what constitutes 'righteous judgment' and what is beyond one's ability to decide (especially in the case of others) the same as 'copping out?'

I can't 'cop out' on behalf of another--and so there is nothing I can do or say that 'lets mankind off the hook', as you say. That's another thing far beyond the boundaries of my jurisdiction.

Becoming a christian brings with it accountability and responsibility. It requires us to repent(turn away from sin) and accept the changes the Holy Spirit will reveal to us that we need to make.

There's no question of whether a person 'accepts' the changes the Spirit makes--you can only turn toward God--but once you do, He does the rest. And I can't imagine anyone actually having the power, or the desire, to reject the Spirit of God once it arrives. Being a 'christian' doesn't entitle anyone to any special favors--my own experiences have made this plain and undeniable. It is a pretty wrapper for that 'strong delusion' and the idea that only christians will go to 'heaven' is an idea that is as full of unrighteousness as anything one might choose to deem 'evil.'

Originally posted by queenannie38
'Churchianity'

I often say 'churchians,' but I've never heard anyone else say that.

I don't think 'wrong' is the way I look at it--I see 'right' and 'wrong' as judgment calls that lie far beyond my scope of jurisdiction. BUT I have no doubt, at all, in my heart of hearts, that the whole idea of 'christianity' is not at all what it is believed to be, by both its followers and otherwise, all over the world. It has come to my understanding that it is the 'strong delusion' which Paul warned about in 2 Thessalonians. And this came with much dismay, I assure you--I never could 'unsee' now what I see--that I hadn't even had a glimpse of because it had been hidden from the possibility of anyone's understanding up until just recently. It is 'that wicked revealed.' Not some individually outstanding evil man--'The Antichrist'--but the religion that uses the name 'Christ' in no way is on His side (I do not mean the followers, but the forces behind the delusion, not people, but powers and principalities in high places.) The reason it is not following God's laws is demonstrated in its group configuration, and its manipulation of scripture--each listening to others, instead of God alone--and confusing 'worship' (adoration for God) with 'fellowship' (comfort for ourselves). We cannot listen to God 'en masse.' It is a one-on-one experience for each of us, without exception. After we get to know Him, He blesses us with the comraderie of His other scattered people. ]

Would you mind if I quiz you annie how many commandments to God give the Israelites, and are they still in force?

[quote

Originally posted by queenannie38
I don't think 'wrong' is the way I look at it--I see 'right' and 'wrong' as judgment calls that lie far beyond my scope of jurisdiction.

Do you understand my point, with that statement? Specifically I am saying that to say 'churchianity' is wrong, in general, is not within my God-given right to decree--all that lies within my sphere of true responsibility is the discernment which I can only apply to myself according to what I understand is 'my lot in life.' I can not say what is wrong for me is wrong for another--or right, either. That is judgment and it is unrighteous judgment,


No, I do have trouble understanding your points. Here's what I got out of what you are saying. Please correct your view if it is different than what I am stating.

1.I get that you are saying it is impossible for a person to know what is right and what is wrong. Also with the acceptance of Christ as Savior this is impossible.

2.Please define churchianity.

3. You said what is right for me may notbe right for another or what is wrong for me may not be wrong for another. I have a HUGE problem with that because then anything goes, everyone can do what is right in their own eyes. God says adultery is wrong. With your statement you make it possible to be the right solution for some.

And yes a christian is not supposed to judge to a certain extent. Let's say I steal stamps from work. Then I catch you stealing pens and I come to you and accuse and reprimand you for that and tell you it's a sin and never once deal with the stealing problem in my own life that would be wrong. Now let's I don't steal and someone else does. There are a couple of ways this can go. Christians are to be light in the world and with as much love and gentleness as possible help the situation. If the person stealing is not a christian then my news that stealing is wrong is not going to be well received. But I would be doing it to help that person deal with a problem they have and hopefully open up an opprtunity to share Christ and bulid a relationship. If the person stealing is a christian then my takling to him/her about what he/she is doing is meant to inform and get them closer to God and help them turn from sin.

There are absolutes to truth and as such there are things that are wrong for everyone God has ever made, no exceptions.

Originally posted by queenannie38
It is all about equity (the opposite of iniquity). But if that were what you understood 'wrong' to be, you wouldn't have such an aversion to the idea that God loves everyone, not just christians--even enough to save every last one of us. According to the bible, selective salvation is unrighteousness, or iniquity--and therefore, technically 'wrong' in God's view.

For God so loved the "world"...........that "whosoever believeth in Him" shall not perish.

Of course God loves everyone ever made, but not all believe in Him and as such not all will be saved. God gives everyone the opportunity to be saved but not all will accept His way of salvation through Christ. Many will try to make their own way.

Matthew 7:13-15
[13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


The teaching that all will be saved is not true. Or that people live more than one life and will eventually get it right is not true.

Originally posted by queenannie38

And, yet still, the institution of 'churchianity' is largely defined and/or dependent upon a physical place of meeting--into which money is invested, rather than being spent as

The dwelling place of God is in believers. A church building is a meeting place for those believers to come together. Could this be done in a home, sure that's how the church I attend started 20 years ago, then more people started coming than what the house could hold. So the meetings were held in a empty store then that got to small so they built a church buliding. Is it a crystal cathedral, no, I don't agree with building a structure like that.

Too many people don't realize that the ultimate place God wants to live is in(literally) believers(and anyone can become a believer in Christ, it isn't a selective group, anyone can become a christian).

To say that church buildings are not appropriate is not true. Church bulidings are around so that when people are convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sin they have a place to go and learn and grow and receive Christ. Does someone have to do this at a church no, but it's a blessing we have and should be used to reach others.

Originally posted by queenannie38
And I can't imagine anyone actually having the power, or the desire, to reject the Spirit of God once it arrives. Being a 'christian' doesn't entitle anyone to any special favors--my own experiences have made this plain and undeniable. It is a pretty wrapper for that 'strong delusion' and the idea that only christians will go to 'heaven' is an idea that is as full of unrighteousness as anything one might choose to deem 'evil.'

So what do you believe happens to a mentally healthy adult person who dies before accepting Christ?

[13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

The preceeding verses from Jesus own mouth tell us many will not enter eternal life, and that there are false people leading others astray.

Originally posted by scienceguy94
Would you mind if I quiz you annie how many commandments to God give the Israelites, and are they still in force?

I don't mind at all--but could you be more specific? Do you consider a commandment in the truest sense of the word--which I understand to be something one is given charge of, appointed to serve, or otherwise be given official responsibility to perform? Or are you including ordinances. laws, statutes, and things of that nature?

The 'law' will be in place until the next age begins--necessarily for balance, it seems....

But while the law still stands, God provided a means of justification for the remnant of Israel--in order that they might serve and fulfill the commandments given to them--which these days come not on stony tablets but written on fleshy hearts directly.

The ultimate commandment is to serve God by serving each other in love that lacks favoritism--for the purpose of glorifying God in His perfect righteousness and mercy.

There are the 10 fundamental commandments which, IMO, are perfect and complete in their simplicity and purpose--the first half concerning love for God and the second half, love for one another. Of course, the biggest trap with those, in regard to modern christianity, is the disregard for the Sabbath appointed by God to be a 'sign between me and thee' (thee referring to Israel) forever.

Many believe that justification means impunity without restraint--but God did not establish the fundamental principles of all things just to throw them out the window one day. Instead, He provided a way for us to make the once-impossible mark of compliance by giving His Son, who then 'gave up the ghost' so that we might have our Advocate--the Spirit of Truth.

What kind of god sends people to burn in hell for eternity just for not accepting what is idolatry. believing that a man can be God. If Jesus was a savior then the old testament would have said something more explicit to warn people to not reject his son. right? Jesus himself said he was not God.

Originally posted by scienceguy94
What kind of god sends people to burn in hell for eternity just for not accepting what is idolatry. believing that a man can be God. If Jesus was a savior then the old testament would have said something more explicit to warn people to not reject his son. right? Jesus himself said he was not God.

People chose hell when they reject Christ. If someone is given a choice between 2 things and chooses the wrong one, you can't blame the one who gives the choice. Especially when it is clearly stated in the Bible that choosing to accept Christ leads to eternal life and rejecting Him leads to eternity in hell. It's not like God is saying to us, you have your choice of a snickers or a milky way. The choice He offers to us, is as different as black and white. So to push the blame onto God is not right.

People want to be able to live life freely and make choices yet when it comes to deciding where they will spend eternity suddenly we play dumb and act like we can't figure out what to do.

Jesus said He and the Father are one and there are many other places where we are told that Jesus is God.

[edit on 31-10-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by scienceguy94
What kind of god sends people to burn in hell for eternity just for not accepting what is idolatry.

The kind man makes after his own image.

Originally posted by dbrandt
No, I do have trouble understanding your points. Here's what I got out of what you are saying. Please correct your view if it is different than what I am stating.

1.I get that you are saying it is impossible for a person to know what is right and what is wrong. Also with the acceptance of Christ as Savior this is impossible.

First of all, I didn't say anything about anyone else besides myself--or about whether it is possible to know right from wrong. I certainly know what is right and wrong--in many ways beyond just things like murder and lying. But this isn't about dogma at all. It's about judging. Knowing what is right and wrong in a deeper sense also brings a clearer picture of what constitutes judging.

All I said, in the beginning of this snafu was that it was not correct for me to say churchianity is 'wrong.' But I will clarify--it is 'wrong' in one sense, in that it is not a way of following God like so many whole-heartedly believe--because it's following men's ways regarding God, instead. But is this 'wrong' in general, or 'wrong' for those who believe it is 'right?' I can't say that it is--God does all things for a reason and the 'wrong' is for the purpose of instructing us toward what is 'right'--by way of experience.

2.Please define churchianity.

Religion. Institutional pseudo-spirituality. Idolatry. Strong delusion. Political superstition.

3. You said what is right for me may notbe right for another or what is wrong for me may not be wrong for another. I have a HUGE problem with that because then anything goes, everyone can do what is right in their own eyes.

Guess what? It's not your problem. Not in the least. That's called 'meddling' and 'judging.' It takes away from what you have truly have a responsibility toward--which is yourself. How can you be paying adequate attention to your own 'rights' and 'wrongs' if you're worrying about that of others? Don't tell me you've already got it all down pat, because that would be too hard to swallow.

God says adultery is wrong. With your statement you make it possible to be the right solution for some.

Be realistic--does what you say, think, or believe matter--as far as someone else doing what you consider 'wrong?' Do you really believe you can change another person's mind? Do people not do what they think is right, in their own eyes, continuously--yourself included? Your ideas of 'right' and 'wrong' leave out the literal necessity of education and learning on our parts, as humans. If we could be perfect, would we even be having this discussion?

And yes a christian is not supposed to judge to a certain extent. Let's say I steal stamps from work. Then I catch you stealing pens and I come to you and accuse and reprimand you for that and tell you it's a sin and never once deal with the stealing problem in my own life that would be wrong.

'Accusing' is a fleshly thing--it would just make you seem holier-than-thou whether you had a problem with stealing or not. There are other ways to help people than going about accusing and pointing fingers at 'sinners.' Don't point at anyone--there are 3 more fingers pointing back at you when you do!

Now let's I don't steal and someone else does. There are a couple of ways this can go. Christians are to be light in the world and with as much love and gentleness as possible help the situation. If the person stealing is not a christian then my news that stealing is wrong is not going to be well received.

I think most people know stealing is 'wrong'--even career thieves know this--obviously that's not what it's all about. Judging a person based on whether they meet your christian-standards is just as wrong. 'Who are you to judge your brother?'

But I would be doing it to help that person deal with a problem they have and hopefully open up an opprtunity to share Christ and bulid a relationship.

I know you fully well believe that; but it is a way of comparison that is psychologically acceptable to the mind that diverts itself from its own housekeeping. Comparison leads to envy and envy leads to strife. We all basically have the same 'problem'--we're humans and basically selfish to the core.

If the person stealing is a christian then my takling to him/her about what he/she is doing is meant to inform and get them closer to God and help them turn from sin.

What? Does your idea of 'christian' allow for theft? What else? Why would a 'christian' thief be any more 'salvagable' than a non-christian? Does it all depend on what a person says, or calls themselves?

There are absolutes to truth and as such there are things that are wrong for everyone God has ever made, no exceptions.

And yet we are told there is only one sin which will not be forgiven. So, in the end of it all--which is more important? Judging one another's 'rights' and 'wrongs' or just loving each other as God loves us? What does the bible say about that?

Originally posted by dbrandt
To say that church buildings are not appropriate is not true.

'God doesn't dwell in a house made by human hands.' Or something like that. Is that not true? Why have it, then? God destroyed the temple in 70AD for a specific reason. There need not be any 'temples' of any kind--since the 'Father is pure spirit.'

Church bulidings are around so that when people are convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sin they have a place to go and learn and grow and receive Christ. Does someone have to do this at a church no, but it's a blessing we have and should be used to reach others.

God doesn't need a church building in order to teach someone that truly seeks Him all they need to know. That's nonsense--and as far as 'reaching others'--that has yet to be seen. It's much more like what was written about making proselytes into 'children of hell.' What good is it to reach others with something that's all about man and what he thinks is proper, rather than what God says is His intention for our service? How can you 'reach others' by sitting in one place? Reach implies an outward movement, not a stationary and proprietory attitude.

People chose hell when they reject Christ.
People want to be able to live life freely and make choices yet when it comes to deciding where they will spend eternity suddenly we play dumb and act like we can't figure out what to do.

Jesus said He and the Father are one and there are many other places where we are told that Jesus is God.

[edit on 31-10-2005 by dbrandt]

So do holocaust victims deserve to burn in hell? Or howabout children who died before hearing the good news? please answer a yes or no?
if you actually read the old testament in its own light you will see that jesus as god is a contraption of the early church

[edit on 31-10-2005 by scienceguy94]

Originally posted by dbrandt
People chose hell when they reject Christ. If someone is given a choice between 2 things and chooses the wrong one, you can't blame the one who gives the choice.

Remember the citizens of Nineveh? In the book of Jonah? They didn't know their right hand from their left. Nothing's really changed--if we were able to choose the right thing--we'd still be in the garden and we wouldn't need rescue from death, or 'hell'.

Especially when it is clearly stated in the Bible that choosing to accept Christ leads to eternal life and rejecting Him leads to eternity in hell.

It's clear if that's what you want to see--but challenge your ideas--search out for yourself--what you say is what you've chosen to believe. It warrants personal investigation. BTW--the bible wasn't written in English, either

It's not like God is saying to us, you have your choice of a snickers or a milky way. The choice He offers to us, is as different as black and white. So to push the blame onto God is not right.

To 'push blame' onto anyone is further judging and personal justification by comparison. How can anyone be to blame for what God intended all along? Or do you think that somewhere along the way He lost control of His plan? God isn't giving you a choice, ultimately--because He knows good and well all of us would screw it up, just the same.

People want to be able to live life freely and make choices yet when it comes to deciding where they will spend eternity suddenly we play dumb and act like we can't figure out what to do.

Who needs to play dumb when they're already confused and blinded? What about 'the truth shall make ye free?' Freedom is the whole point--self-government in a manner beneficial to all of creation and in no way selfish or motivated by personal gain.

Jesus said He and the Father are one and there are many other places where we are told that Jesus is God.

Name just one, then....

Originally posted by queenannie38
God doesn't need a church building in order to teach someone that truly seeks Him all they need to know.

I agree with you, you don't have to attend a church to be a christian and be saved.

But you are totally ruling out the possisibility that there are established christian denominations with structure, as serving a purpose and you are totally wrong, and I will follow that statement up with an example from my personal life. Several months back a co-worker had a severe stroke and wasn't expected to live. She was taken from our town to a Madison, Wisconsin hospital in in critical condition. From us to Madison is 90 miles. Because of insurance reasons she had to go to a hospital in Rochester MN. Now that is a little bit farther. There was an update put up at work saying that she would be there for several more months. One of the problems is she has a 12 year old son that she has only been able to see once, since her stroke and so the nurse there, said her morale wasn't good. She said calls from coworkers and visits would help lift her spirits.

I belong to an Evangelical Free Church. So on the way home from work I got an idea. I went on the internet and checked to see if there were any Ev. Free Churches in Rochester. There were a couple of them, and I was able to get ahold of one by email. There are now people who live in Rochester from that church who are visiting her, so that she doesn't have to lay there day after day and not have anything to look forward too. Yes, this isn't her son visiting her, but it's a step up from what she was going through.

So I KNOW from personal experience that having a "system" of organized christians across the country in place has benefits. She can now have visits and bright spots in the day as people come to vist with her.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Remember the citizens of Nineveh? In the book of Jonah? They didn't know their right hand from their left. Nothing's really changed--if we were able to choose the right thing--we'd still be in the garden and we wouldn't need rescue from death, or 'hell'.

Jonah also went and preached to them. The citizens of Ninevah believed what he told them about God and the coming judgement, they repented?changed and God did not bring Judgement at that time. Judgement didn't come for another 120 years.

Could you please expand on the last sentence of yours in the quote above?

As far as christians meeting together in one place. Look at
Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

You can also look in the OT and NT as see the times when followers of God and Jesus assembled togehter.

So for christians to gather to a paticular place for taking care of the work of God, that He has given us to do, it's Biblical.