NEWS: Iran's President Calls For Israel's Destruction

Originally posted by subz

Whats to say that couldnt happen in reverse?

UN-Charta, & International law (just to name two)..., subz.

Originally posted by subz

Should I be ashamed of myself for getting angry because your nation wants to drop bombs on a nation I have close friends in?

Oh you have friends in Israel?

do not forget:


- it is Ahmadinejad from IRAN calling for Israel's annihilation

- it is Rafsanjani from IRAN who called on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel - and NOT the other way.


- And to answer your question:

Yes, you should be ashamed to applaude calls for the destruction of another people.



[edit on 8-11-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Riwka
UN-Charta, & International law (just to name two)..., subz.

It says the UN cant reverse one of its resolutions in the UN charter? Thats a new one. And international law....ahhhhh the thing belligerents drag out when things dont go their way...and conveniently forget when they break it themselves.

Originally posted by Riwka
Oh you have friends in Israel?

Yes I do but I said "your nation" wants to bomb them. Hence I was saying I have close friends in Tehran. Remember the Israeli ultimatum to the Americans? Stop Iran's nuclear programme or we will. Wheres International law there? Im pretty sure bombing a country that has not attacked you is against international law, right? Or does Israel not play by the same rulebook as you insist every other country abide by?

Originally posted by Riwka
do not forget:

- it is Ahmadinejad from IRAN calling for Israel's annihilation

He said it should be "wiped from the map", not annihilated. You're being deliberately duplicitous.

Originally posted by Riwka
- it is Rafsanjani from IRAN who called on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel - and NOT the other way.

So what? What about the Samson option? What about Israel's clandestine nuclear weapons? How about the Israeli doctrine of targetting Islamic holy sites with nuclear weapons? You cant paint one side as completely evil when the Israelis are just as bad.

Originally posted by Riwka
- And to answer your question:

Yes, you should be ashamed to applaude calls for the destruction of another people.

Huh? Can you drop the duplicitous twisting of my words please. I never said "should I be ashamed because I want the destruction of another people". I said should I be ashamed because I am angry YOUR COUNTRY wants to bomb Iran over its SUSPECTED nuclear weapons programme.

[edit on 8/11/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz

It says the UN cant reverse one of its resolutions in the UN charter?

subz,

the United Nations had emerged from the ashes of the Holocaust (Kofi Annan) - Did you ever read the UN Charter?

What do you think

How it comes, that ALL members of The United Nations Security Council unanimously condemn the remarks about Israel attributed to H.E. Mr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, President of the Islamic Republic of Iran?!?

Think twice, please.

Originally posted by subz

I said "your nation" wants to bomb them.

No, we don't want.

In interview with Newsweek Teheran-born (Israels) Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz says,

‘I believe for the time being the diplomatic channel is the main one, There is a chance that by putting pressure on Iran, a decision in U.N. Security Council will delay or stop Iranian nuclear capability...

Mofaz: A Military Option Is Not on the Agenda


[edit on 8-11-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Riwka
subz,

the United Nations had emerged from the ashes of the Holocaust (Kofi Annan) - Did you ever read the UN Charter?

What do you think

You asked me how it was possible to "wipe Israel off the map" without bloodshed and abiding by the UN charter and International Law. I gave you a way it could happen. I never said it WOULD HAPPEN did I? Israel was created with the pen and it can be removed by the pen. OK?

Originally posted by Riwka
How it comes, that ALL members of The United Nations Security Council unanimously condemn the remarks about Israel attributed to H.E. Mr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, President of the Islamic Republic of Iran?!?

Think twice, please.

Your confusing two issues. It might arise from language differences but you are trying to bait and switch me like a pro, it would seem. You didnt ask me for a probable way Israel could be "wiped off the map", you asked me how it could be done and I gave you a way.

Originally posted by Riwka
No, we don't want.

In interview with Newsweek Teheran-born (Israels) Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz says,

‘I believe for the time being the diplomatic channel is the main one, There is a chance that by putting pressure on Iran, a decision in U.N. Security Council will delay or stop Iranian nuclear capability...

Mofaz: A Military Option Is Not on the Agenda

I beg to differ, Riwka:

"They won't be stopped unless they are convinced their programs will be destroyed if they continue," [Arieh Eldad] said.
Yuval Steinitz, chairman of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, said the best hope was for the United States and other major powers to make it clear to Iranian leaders now there was "no chance they will ever see the fruits of a nuclear program."
"Threats of sanctions and isolation alone will not do it," said Mr. Steinitz.

The Washington Times: Israelis urge U.S. to stop Iran's nuke goals

"Threats of sanctions and isolation alone will not do it,", I dont know how you interpret that but I see that as an ultimatum: bomb the Iranian nuclear programme or we will.

So yes, your country (Israel) wants to bomb a country where I have close friends (Iran). Hence my anger at the lies and belligerance spewing from some members here. We are not playing a game here, you are calling for the bombing of a nation based on suspicion and unsubstantiated accusations. People will die and my good friends are in the potential firing line and I wont sit idly by and read trash talk coming from Israelis, Americans, British, Australians, Iranians or anyone. This is not a bloody game!

[edit on 8/11/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz

you asked me how it could be done and I gave you a way.

No subz, you did NOT give a way.

So - How could it be done?

Originally posted by subz

"Threats of sanctions and isolation alone will not do it,", I dont know how you interpret that but I see that as an ultimatum: bomb the Iranian nuclear programme or we will.

Of course threats of sanctions will not do it.

The deeds matter: IRAN has to SHOW the world that it fully suspend its uranium enrichment-related activities

Originally posted by subz

So yes, your country (Israel) wants to bomb a country where I have close friends (Iran).

No, we do NOT want.

Please read carefully the source I provided above, subz.

[edit on 8-11-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Riwka
No subz, you did NOT give a way.

Yes I did:

Originally posted by subz
Its quite simple really. How was Israel created? There was a UN assembly vote and a resolution passed. Whats to say that couldnt happen in reverse? Wheres the bloodshed and death with a UN assembly vote that calls for the dissolution of Israel? I think you'd find the people who would be carrying out the killing and bloodshed would be the pissed off Israelis. But then that wouldnt gel with the whole victim persona you've got going, would it?

Originally posted by Riwka
So - How could it be done?

Like I said, with a vote in the UN Assembly on whether to dissolve the Jewish state of Israel or not. If Israel could be created from a UN Assembly vote it goes without saying it could be dissolved by the same process, no? Or is the sanctity of Israeli land more important than Palestinian land 50 years ago?

Originally posted by Riwka
Of course threats of sanctions will not do it.

The deeds matter: IRAN has to SHOW the world that it fully suspend its uranium enrichment-related activities

Quite, so you've just contradicted the statement made by Shaul Mofaz. You quoted Mofaz in a vein effort to show that Israel wants to pursue a diplomatic only solution to Iran's suspected nuclear weapons programme. Yet you've just shown that threats of sanctions will not work. What does that leave up the diplomatic sleeve?

Originally posted by subz
No, we do NOT want.

Of course Israel wants to bomb Iran. There is no evidence supporting American claims that Iran is going for nuclear weapons. Israel then wants to forcibly deny Iran nuclear power due to spurious claims of nuclear weapons. If Israel had evidence that showed Iran was going for nuclear weapons, now is the time to share it with the World. If not, then you can only construe the threats of Steinitz as aggression.

Originally posted by subz
Please read carefully the source I provided above, subz.

Why should I read it again? You've contradicted it yourself and I've shown you quotes from the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee that say otherwise. How can you sit there and argue something so black and white as Israel's intention to forcibly deny Iran its NPT approved nuclear programme based on nothing more than unsubstantiated rumour.

[edit on 8/11/05 by subz]

Subz,

again: please READ the UN charter .



Just do it - sit down, click on one of the images and start reading the facts.
It is worth it.

Riwka I've already read it thank you. You've assumed wrong and your arrogance is showing through clearly, ok?

Im not about to sit here and be lectured to about how the UN Charter works by an Israeli. Do you want me to list all the resolutions critical of Israel that the Israeli government has ignored? Shall I list all the resolutions critical of Israel that have been vetoed by a single veto from the United States?

Your nation is a rogue nation, you only preach about abiding by the United Nations rules and regulations when it suits Israel. When Israel wants to break the rules and flout international law it does so. I suggest you get your Knesset to read the UN Charter and bloody start abiding by it!

[edit on 8/11/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz
Riwka I've already read it thank you.

Ok, Great. Then, let's start.

• You know about the use of force. It is barred by
  
  Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which prohibits "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state."
  

• You know that under the UN Charter, there are only two circumstances in which the use of force is permissible:
  
  
  • in collective or individual self-defense against an actual or imminent armed attack (which is under Article 51 of the UN Charter)
    
    
  • and when the Security Council has directed or authorized use of force to maintain or restore international peace and security (Council decisions embodied in Chapter VII resolutions, that are binding on all members)
    
  
  

Originally posted by subz

Do you want me to list all the resolutions critical of Israel that the Israeli government has ignored?

Yes, please.
List those resolutions, which really binding, the resolutions under Chapter VII

You know, this is an easy job to do, since Israel has never been subject to a resolution based on Chapter VII

All resolutions have been non-binding recommendations according to Chapter VI.

So... there is no argument for the United Nations to use any force against Israel, no way to argue Israel should be expelled from the United Nations




[edit on 9-11-2005 by Riwka]

All resolutions have been non-binding recommendations according to Chapter VI.

That is because the Yanks will veto any binding resolutions put forth to the Security Council. It is impossible to criticise and make Israel abide by international law in the UN. Even the non-binding ones must contain some vitreol against the Palestinains, regardless of what it is in there.

Get rid of the veto powers (for everyone) and you would see a very different world.

Originally posted by Riwka

• You know about the use of force. It is barred by
  Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which prohibits "the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state."
  

• You know that under the UN Charter, there are only two circumstances in which the use of force is permissible:
  
  • in collective or individual self-defense against an actual or imminent armed attack (which is under Article 51 of the UN Charter)

How quaint, you're towing the Zionist line like a pro Riwka. I know, and you probably know, that Israel has provoked every single War it has been in. If it wasnt sending Israeli secret agents to sabotage Egyptian infrastructure it was starting, and backing, a civil war in Lebanon. Israel is the aggressor plain and simple but creates a maskarovka or a cassus belli for every single action it takes. No one is saying Israel is dumb here, they know how to start a war and make it look like they are being attacked. Its the oldest trick in the book and Israel is a master at it.

I would urge you to read Moshe Sharett's Personal diary if you already havent. It will show you just exactly what the Israeli aim was during all those wars and it comes from an Israeli Prime Ministers own words.

Originally posted by Riwka

and when the Security Council has directed or authorized use of force to maintain or restore international peace and security (Council decisions embodied in Chapter VII resolutions, that are binding on all members)

You mean like when the UN ordered Israel and Haddad out of Southern Lebanon in 1981? Then the Israeli army, with Haddad's Israeli backed militia, bombarded UN soldiers from UNIFIL, killing 3 Nigeran soldiers? Yeah I can see why you would try and lecture me on the UN charter, Israel follows it to the letter...

Originally posted by Riwka
Yes, please.
List those resolutions

Resolutions 1955-1992:

• * Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
  
• * Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
  
• * Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' Jerusalem".
  
• * Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
  
• * Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
  
• * Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
  
• * Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
  
• * Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
  
• * Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
  
• * Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
  
• * Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
  
• * Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
  
• * Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
  
• * Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
  
• * Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
  
• * Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
  
• * Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
  
• * Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
  
• * Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
  
• *Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
  
• * Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
  
• * Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
  
• *Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
  
• * Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
  
• * Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member
  ]states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
  
• * Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
  two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
  
• * Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians".
  
• * Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
  
• * Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
  
• * Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its
  claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".
  
• * Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors".
  
• * Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's
  nuclear facility".
  
• * Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan
  Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".
  
• * Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
  
• * Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and
  allow food supplies to be brought in".
  
• * Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions
  and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
  
• * Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
  
• * Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia
  in attack on PLO headquarters.
  
• * Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw
  its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
  
• * Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
  
• * Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices
  denying the human rights of Palestinians.
  
• * Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
  
• * Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
  
• * Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
  
• * Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
  
• * Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians
  at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
  
• * Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.
  
• * Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of
  Palestinians.
  
• * Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and
  calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
  
• * Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
  
• * Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for there immediate return.
  

A list of UN Resolutions against "Israel"

That list is by no means comprehensive and all the resolutions that the World has condemned Israel with. Israel screams bloody murder when the Iranian President utters the phrase "Israel should be wiped off the map" but when the World issues a statement condemning Israel it is shrugged off as simply non-binding words. Oh the hypocrisy!

Originally posted by Riwka
You know, this is an easy job to do, since Israel has never been subject to a resolution based on Chapter VII

All resolutions have been non-binding recommendations according to Chapter VI.

So... there is no argument for the United Nations to use any force against Israel, no way to argue Israel should be expelled from the United Nations

Ah yeah, the old Zionist chestnut that Israel has never faced a binding UN resolution therefore it has done nothing wrong. I wonder why that is...

• Palestine: Syrian-Lebanese Complaint. 3 power draft resolution 2/10784. Vetoed by US 13 - 1
  
• Palestine: Examination of Middle East Situation. 8-power draft resolution (S/10974). Vetoed by US 13 - 1
  
• Palestine: Egyptian-Lebanese Complaint. 5-power draft power resolution (S/11898). Vetoed by US 13 - 1
  
• Palestine: Middle East Problem, including Palestinian question. 6-power draft resolution (S/11940). Vetoed by US 9 - 1
  
• Palestine: Situation in Occupied Arab Territories. 5-power draft resolution (S/12022). Vetoed by US 14-1
  
• Palestine: Report on Committee on Rights of Palestinian People. 4-power draft resolution (S/121119). Vetoed by US 10 - 1
  
• Palestine: Palestinian Rights. Tunisian draft resolution. (S/13911). Vetoed by US 10 - 1
  
• Palestine: Golan Heights. Jordan draft resolution. (S/14832/Rev. 2). Vetoed by US 9 -1
  
• Palestine: Situation in Occupied Territories, Jordan draft resolution (S/14943). Vetoed by US 13 -1
  
• Palestine: Incident at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. 4-power draft resolution. Vetoed by US 14 -1
  
• Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. Spain draft resolution. (S/15185). Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. France draft resolution. (S/15255/Rev. 2). Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. USSR draft resolution. (S/15347/Rev. 1, as orally amended). Vetoed by US 11 - 1
  
• Palestine: Situation in Occupied Territories, 20-power draft resolution (S/15895). Vetoed by US 13 - 1
  

U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel
(1972-2004)

Yeah I can see how you think Israel is free from wrong doing because it has never faced a binding UN resolution critical of it . Could it be simply because the United States is being blackmailed by Israel, via their threats of the Samson option, that they never face a critical resolution? Purely because 1 nation veto's them all.

How about more Security council resolutions critical of Israel that were vetoed?

• S. Lebanon: Condemns Israeli action in southern Lebanon. S/16732. Vetoed by US 13 - 1
  
• Occupied Territories: Deplores "repressive measures" by Israel against Arab population. S/19459. Vetoed by US 10 - 1
  
• Lebanon: Condemns Israeli practices against civilians in southern Lebanon. S/17000. Vetoed by US 11 - 1
  
• Occupied Territories: Calls upon Israel to respect Muslim holy places. S/17769/Rev. 1. Vetoed by US 13 - 1
  
• Lebanon: Condemns Israeli practices against civilians in southern Lebanon. S/17730/Rev. 2. Vetoed by US 11 - 1
  
• Libya/Israel: Condemns Israeli interception of Libyan plane. S/17796/Rev. 1. Vetoed by US 10 - 1
  
• Lebanon: Draft strongly deplored repeated Israeli attacks against Lebanese territory and other measures and practices against the civilian population; (S/19434). Vetoed by US 13 - 1
  
• Lebanon: Draft condemned recent invasion by Israeli forces of Southern Lebanon and repeated a call for the immediate withdrawal of all Israeli forces from Lebanese territory; (S/19868). Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Lebanon: Draft strongly deplored the recent Israeli attack against Lebanese territory on 9 December 1988; (S/20322) Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Occupied territories: Draft called on Israel to accept de jure applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention; (S/19466). Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Occupied territories: Draft urged Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention, rescind the order to deport Palestinian civilians, and condemned policies and practices of Israel that violate the human rights of the Palestinian people in the occupied territories; (S/19780). Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Occupied territories: Strongly deplored Israeli policies and practices in the occupied territories, and strongly deplored also Israel's continued disregard of relevant Security Council decisions. Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Occupied territories: Condemned Israeli policies and practices in the occupied territories. Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Occupied territories: Deplored Israel's policies and practices in the occupied territories. Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Occupied territories: NAM draft resolution to create a commission and send three security council members to Rishon Lezion, where an Israeli gunmen shot down seven Palestinian workers. Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Middle East: Confirms that the expropriation of land by Israel in East Jerusalem is invalid and in violation of relevant Security Council resolutions and provisions of the Fourth Geneva convention; expresses support of peace process, including the Declaration of Principles of 9/13/1993. Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Middle East: Calls upon Israeli authorities to refrain from all actions or measures, including settlement activities. Vetoed by US 14 - 1
  
• Middle East: Demands that Israel cease construction of the settlement in east Jerusalem (called Jabal Abu Ghneim by the Palestinians and Har Homa by Israel), as well as all the other Israeli settlement activity in the occupied territories. Vetoed by US 13 - 1
  
• Call for UN Observers Force in West Bank, Gaza. Vetoed by US 9 - 1
  
• Condemned acts of terror, demanded an end to violence and the establishment of a monitoring mechanism to bring in observers. Vetoed by US 12 - 1
  
• On the killing by Israeli forces of several UN employees and the destruction of the World Food Programme (WFP) warehouse. Vetoed by US 12 - 1
  
• Demand that Israel halt threats to expel Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Vetoed by US 11 - 1
  
• Seeks to bar Israel from extending security fence. Vetoed by US 10 - 1
  
• Condemns Israel for killing Ahmed Yassin. Vetoed by US 11 - 1
  
• Calls For Israel To Halt Gaza Operation. Vetoed by US 11 - 1
  

Security Council Vetoes/Negative voting 1983-present

Looking at that track record it is crystal clear to see that Israel has been working outside of accepted international law for decades now. The only thing that has stopped Israel from receiving full blown UN sanctions is the US veto, nothing more. You should be ashamed of supporting a country that has received such widespread condemnation. It is easy to see why Palestinians have no other option but to resort to terrorism against Israel. Their only other option, the UN, has been circumvented by the United States veto.

You reap what you sow.

[edit on 9/11/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz

I know, and you probably know, that Israel has provoked every single War it has been in. [...]

Israel is the aggressor plain and simple but creates a maskarovka or a cassus belli for every single action it takes. [...]

they know how to start a war and make it look like they are being attacked. Its the oldest trick in the book and Israel is a master at it. [...]

It is easy to see why Palestinians have no other option but to resort to terrorism against Israel [...]

subz,

You shold be ashamed.

In the future, please let the big ATS-family know, that you are not intersted in serious discussions about Israel, but only want to spread some HATE.

Still - and for very good reasons - you are unable to prove your assertion , that it would be possible to "wipe Israel off the map" without bloodshed and abiding by the UN charter and International Law.

YES....Of course, the new born state of Israel provoked Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq to invade us immediately in the night May 14, 1948 .

Who knows....Maybe Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League ("This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." ) has been one of these well known "evil Zionists"?!?

- And of course, in 1991 poor Saddam army has been provoked by Israel, to fire more than 30 SCUDS which struck Israel.

Our simple existence is enough to be a provocation.

Sit down and learn about the facts, subz. Look into each and every single resolution, look at the circumstances, try to find out what happened before and what happened afterwards. It'll be a far better way than copy & paste lists which for good reasons never became resolutions.

And: Like it or not, the Jewish State of Israel is a well respected member of the United Nations.



[edit on 10-11-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Riwka
Subz,

again: please READ the UN charter .



Just do it - sit down, click on one of the images and start reading the facts.
It is worth it.

The United Nations is one of, if not the most corrupt organization in the world. 80% of them are tyrants and dictators posing as statesmen. I just can't see where ANYONE would let people they can't "fire" run their country. I'd advise everyone here to do some research on the UN Agenda 21. Does anyone really think that it would be a good thing to rid the world of 2/3rds of it's population, with the UN dictating where in your own country you can or should live?

Does anyone agree that the following is a good idea?:
The Charter for Global Democracy gives the U.N. a standing army with blanket authority to intervene in American affairs "in a crisis." It gives the U.N.’s International Criminal Court the authority to prosecute Americans for violations against U.N. dictates without the protections of the Constitution. And it forces U.S. compliance with radical U.N. environmental treaties that will devastate the U.S. economy and destroy property rights.

This dangerous Charter creates a global IRS with power to tax and regulate international commerce that affects the U.S.

Most important, this treaty strips the U.S. of our permanent seat in the U.N. Security Council and abolishes our veto power.

If the U.N. achieves these dangerous goals our sovereignty will be damaged beyond repair. The U.S. will steadily lose control over its own land and people until it becomes insignificant

At the June 1998 Rome Summit, the UN openly called for the ability to bring to trial any person in the world before their criminal court.

In June of 1999 the UN’s Environmental Programme came out with its Human Development Report 1999. It calls for the imposition of several types of world taxation, a world central bank, and a socialist-style redistribution of wealth.

The September 1999 UN Report of the Group of Governmental Experts on Small Arms calls for global abolition of the right to keep and bear arms.

From September 1999 through the present, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan has delivered a series of addresses openly calling for an end to national sovereignty, the creation of world law under a global government, and the unrestricted ability of the UN to intervene in the internal affairs of nations.


These and other recent UN pronouncements have openly advocated the accumulation of all of the powers in the UN that modern governments exercise: Trial and punishment of criminals; raising armies and waging war at will; imposing taxes; redistributing wealth; imposing onerous environmental regulations; and confiscating firearms. Many of those powers are certainly not legitimate functions of government. But legitimate or not, the fact remains that these powers can only be exercised by governments, or the people they supposedly represent.
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I'm so very tired of people here in America calling us a "Democracy", and that includes President Bush when he says it. America is Coinstitutional Republic, with a very few Democratic principles.
Well, first of all we do not live in a democracy, and what follows is why we should NOT live in a democracy:
Democracy is indispensable to socialism. V.I. Lenin
Democracy is the road to socialism. Karl Marx
The goal of socialism is communism. V.I. Lenin

After that, here is a small history lesson:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government.
It can only exist until the voters discover that they can
vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that
moment on the majority always votes for the candidates
promising the most money from the public treasury,
with the result that a democracy always collapses over
loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:

1: from bondage to spiritual faith,
2: from spiritual faith to great courage,
3: from courage to liberty,
4: from liberty to abundance,
5: from abundance to selfishness,
6: from selfishness to complacency,
6: from complacency to apathy,
7: from apathy to dependency,
8: from dependency back to bondage."

Right now, America is about at number 8, because for the past 45 years there have been those, mostly Democrats, who have become the "Progressive" party.... progressive being a catch phrase for Socialists and marxists, and our country has become the worse for it.... Roosevelt started the ball rolling, and Johnson picked it up and ran with it. The UN has failed as did the league of Nations, and the only thing they are good at, at least some of the time, is distributing aid to certain parts of the world. Of course, is those countries had the freedom and liberty America does, they most likely would not be in that position.

The UN Earth Charter would turn the world into a global democracy, a global Marxist/Socialist state. The charter strips away any idea of religion, except for a global religion where we worship the earth, Water, the Sky, Fire..... Boy.... how's that for a religion!

Originally posted by Riwka
subz,

You shold be ashamed.

In the future, please let the big ATS-family know, that you are not intersted in serious discussions about Israel, but only want to spread some HATE.

Right back at you Arab-hater. Swings both ways Riwka, you cant acuse me of hate from my anti-Zionist views. I have no animosity towards Jews in the slightest. I am not a bigot and would defend any culture, religion or race from any form of abuse. However Zionism is an ideology as insidious as any terrorism and I reject its values and aims.

Originally posted by Riwka
Still - and for very good reasons - you are unable to prove your assertion , that it would be possible to "wipe Israel off the map" without bloodshed and abiding by the UN charter and International Law.

Are you dense? I said the UN could vote a resolution calling for the land of Israel to be given back to the Palestinians. If they can give the land to Israel they can take it back. This is a hypothetical purely to prove to you that there is a bloodless method to "wipe Israel off the map" yet you purposely ignore this on the numerous occasions I've mentioned it. The UN charter does not expressly forbid them from revoking previous resolutions in the slightest and thats all the dissolution of Israel would entail - revoking a resolution!

Originally posted by Riwka
YES....Of course, the new born state of Israel provoked Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq to invade us immediately in the night May 14, 1948 .

Maybe if they were consulted before the Zionist land grab of Arab land they might not of felt the need to reclaim Arab land.

Originally posted by Riwka
Who knows....Maybe Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League ("This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." ) has been one of these well known "evil Zionists"?!?

The Mongolian massacres and Crusades are spoken of fondly? I dont read anything in Pasha's quote that shows he is endorsing the extermination in the slightest, in fact he sounds like he is lamenting the coming slaughter as the Crusades and Mongolian massacres are today. Try again Riwka.

Originally posted by Riwka
- And of course, in 1991 poor Saddam army has been provoked by Israel, to fire more than 30 SCUDS which struck Israel.

40 years of Israeli aggression and wholesale slaughter coupled with 40 years of Israel ignoring the UN can push people to do heinous things.

Originally posted by Riwka
Our simple existence is enough to be a provocation.

I'll tell you now, if some one came into my home and annexed my living room stating that this is their home now I can gurantee you I'd beat them out of the door.

Originally posted by Riwka
Sit down and learn about the facts, subz. Look into each and every single resolution, look at the circumstances, try to find out what happened before and what happened afterwards. It'll be a far better way than copy & paste lists which for good reasons never became resolutions.

Whats more to learn about them? They are critical of Israel are they not? And every single UNSC resolution critical of Israel is vetoed by 1 solitary vote.

Originally posted by Riwka
And: Like it or not, the Jewish State of Israel is a well respected member of the United Nations.

!
HA! Surely you jest. I cant think of a single biggest source of violence and instability than the creation of Israel.

[edit on 11/11/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz

Right back at you Arab-hater.

I am an Arab-hater? Interesting. Could you please give some proof to this?

Still - and for very good reasons - you are unable to prove your assertion , that it would be possible to "wipe Israel off the map" without bloodshed and abiding by the UN charter and International Law..

Originally posted by subz

The UN charter does not expressly forbid them from revoking previous resolutions

Right - in case the United Nations made a mistake, abiding by the UN charter and International Law, they can recall a resolution.

Indeed, yesterday has been a historical date on this:

On November 10, 1975 - 30 years ago United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379

DETERMINED that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination

The UN had learned, although they needed 20 years to adopt Resolution 46/86 on December 16, 1991:

"THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, DECIDES to revoke the determination contained in its resolution 3379 (XXX) of 10 November 1975".

But the idea to create two states, one Jewish and one Arab - has been no mistake, so there is no way to recall this abiding by the UN charter and International Law, right?

Originally posted by subz

the UN could vote a resolution calling for the land of Israel to be given back to the Palestinians

The term "Palestinian" once referred to anyone living in Palestine (like hundreds and hundreds of years my family – JEWS - )

but there has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. ...and there has never been an independent country or state of Palestine....


You seem even to forget that under International Law, still the land in the West Bank (and also was the Gaza Strip) is "disputed territories" to which both Israelis and Palestinians have claims - and describing the territories as "Palestinian" (= arab) may serve the political agenda of one side in the dispute, but it prejudges the outcome of future territorial negotiations that were envisioned under UN Security Council Resolution 242.

It also represents a total denial of Israels fundamental rights.




[edit on 11-11-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Riwka
I am an Arab-hater? Interesting. Could you please give some proof to this?

Can you give me some proof that I am full of hate?

subz - I never said so.

Refering to

Originally posted by subz

I know, and you probably know, that Israel has provoked every single War it has been in. [...]

Israel is the aggressor plain and simple but creates a maskarovka or a cassus belli for every single action it takes. [...]

they know how to start a war and make it look like they are being attacked. Its the oldest trick in the book and Israel is a master at it. [...]

It is easy to see why Palestinians have no other option but to resort to terrorism against Israel [...]

I answered:

In the future, please let the big ATS-family know, that you are not intersted in serious discussions about Israel, but only want to spread some HATE.


To me, statements like yours I quoted above, are NO basis for respectful and serious discussions.

Now please, your proof that I am an Arab-hater - and maybe afterwards it is possible to do research and look into matters a serious way?

[edit on 11-11-2005 by Riwka]

You said I'm spreading hate. So you think I could spread Israeli hatred whilst not hating Israelis? Dont backpeddle Riwka, you think I hate Israelis and you wrote as much. You have no basis for saying that and its not true. Its a tactic that's been used to deflect criticism of Israeli policies since its inception and I reject it.

So come on, back up your words. Show me proof that I hate Israelis.

Originally posted by subz

you Arab-hater.

Originally posted by subz

you think I hate Israelis and you wrote as much.

subz, now I would kindly like to ask you to deliver two proofs:

• Please deliver a proof that I am an Arab-hater
  
• Please deliver a proof that I wrote you hate Israelis
  

(Do you really believe you know me so well that you even claim to know what I THINK ?)



[edit on 11-11-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Riwka
subz, now I would kindly like to ask you to deliver two proofs:

• Please deliver a proof that I am an Arab-hater
  

That was me being facetious, I dont believe you are an Arab-hater. I was simply giving you a taste of your own medicine. Just as I had no evidence or right to call you an "Arab-hater" you had no right to infer that I only want to spread hatred of Israel. Understand?

Originally posted by Riwka

Please deliver a proof that I wrote you hate Israelis

Originally posted by Riwka
You shold be ashamed.

In the future, please let the big ATS-family know, that you are not intersted in serious discussions about Israel, but only want to spread some HATE.

What exactly should I be ashamed of? The fact that you think that I "only want to spread some HATE"? What exactly do you think I only want to spread hate of? Taxation? Reality TV? Ashton Kutcher?

Originally posted by Riwka
(Do you really believe you know me so well that you even claim to know what I THINK ?)

I can only go by what you write, which I have quoted more than once. There is only one way to interpret:

You shold be ashamed.

In the future, please let the big ATS-family know, that you are not intersted in serious discussions about Israel, but only want to spread some HATE.

[edit on 11/11/05 by subz]