We seem to have "moved past" torture. Now we murder.

LINKAGE

At least 21 detainees who died while in US custody in Iraq and Afghanistan were the victims of homicide and usually died during or after interrogations, according to an analysis of Defence Department data.

The analysis by the American Civil Liberties Union, released today, looked at 44 deaths described in records obtained by the ACLU. Of those, the group characterised 21 as homicides, and said at least eight resulted from abusive techniques by military or intelligence officers, such as strangulation or "blunt force injuries", as noted in the autopsy reports.

The 44 deaths represent a partial group of the total number of prisoners who have died in US custody overseas; more than 100 have died of natural and violent causes.

In one case, the report said, a detainee died after being smothered during interrogation by military intelligence officers in November 2003. In another case cited by the report, a prisoner died of asphyxiation and blunt force injuries after he was left standing, shackled to the top of a door frame, with a gag in his mouth.



Hmmmmmm....Appears as if the U.S is beyond being controlled by something as petty as The Geneva Convention. But remember, instead of trying to get hopefully valuable information from them, it IS easier to just kill them.

Some other stories (emphasis on stories) from your source:

"The Plan is for the United States to rule the world"
"Memo: Bush made intel fit Iraq policy"
"America's War for Global Domination"
"White House Insists That CIA Should Be Allowed To Continue Torture Of Detainees"
"60,000 Iraqis 'Disappeared' into US Camps"
"How The CIA Looted $40 Billion"
"The Real Face of The U.S. Occupation Of Iraq "
"The Secret Government "
"The Panama Deception "
"Americas Third World War "

You quote a source that is questionable to say the very least, and bias to the nth degree. And not only to you quote a source thats as credible as 3 dollar bill, you have bought their propaganda hook line and sinker. In the videogame world, they would have described you as "pwn3d" my friend.

Hey, if you believe that stuff, I want to talk to you about some swamp lan...er prime real estate in Florida I want to sell you...







[edit on 25-10-2005 by skippytjc]

Originally posted by skippytjc

You quote a source that is questionable to say the very least, ...

This is just humorous now.

You did realise that, despite the website it appeared on and your attempt to discredit it* the story was:

US detainees 'murdered' during interrogations ~ By Associated Press

Associated Press

Founded in 1848, The Associated Press is the backbone of the world's information system serving thousands of daily newspaper, radio, television and online customers with coverage in all media and news in all formats. It is the largest and oldest news organization in the world, serving as a source of news, photos, graphics, audio and video for more than one billion people a day....

The Associated Press has received 48 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other news organization in the categories for which it can compete. It has 29 photo Pulitzers, the most of any news organization.

And in fact, here's the story again: Foxnews More to your tastes? (Now where's that $3 bill when you need it?)

(Sorry, still having trouble getting over someone who takes the word of IranFocus.com having the audacity to raise the question of source credibility.)

But hey, if your recent posts are examples of your attention to detail I want to talk to you about some swamp lan...er prime real estate in Florida I want to sell you...

Here though, what might have interested you had you not reverted to a surface-scan, knee-jerk reaction to something that you didn't want to believe is that the analysis of this Defense Department data was by the American Civil Liberties Union.

Jak

*A website who has on it's front page articles from:

Associated Press

Eric Shmitt ~ New York Times journalist

Lawrence B. Wilkerson ~ chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin L. Powell from 2002 to 2005.

Paul Craig Roberts ~ who has held a number of academic appointments and has contributed to numerous scholarly publications. He served as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. His graduate economics education was at the University of Virginia, the University of California at Berkeley, and Oxford University.

Reuters

ascribe.org ~ Ascribe Newswire delivers public-interest news releases from more than 600 nonprofit organizations and governmental agencies - including foundations, public-policy advocates, professional associations, think tanks, colleges, universities, medical and scientific research centers, publishers and public relations agencies.

Greg Palast ~ This is his fourth investigative report for Harper's Magazine. Leni von Eckardt was chief researcher with Palast on this project. This is the Palast team's fifth Project Censored award from California State University's school of journalism.

The Guardian

Newsweek ~ a circulation of more than 4 million readers in the US.

Inter Press Service (IPS) ~ set up in 1964 as a non-profit international cooperative of journalists... The objectives broadened - to cover news from the "Third World", give a voice to the voiceless, promote information on development issues, and help create a better balance and flow of international news.... In 1994, in order to strengthen its non-profit identity, IPS changed its legal status to that of a ‘public-benefit organisation for development cooperation’, open to journalists, professional communicators and bodies active in the fields of information and communication.

United States House of Representatives

Juan Cole ~ Professor of History at the University of Michigan

Yet another boohoo about the "source". And so soon after the whole Rense boohoo in a thread 2 days ago. Why are you cheerleaders so lazy? Teach your brains to take the next step and look at the bottom of the articles (usually) for the real source and quit spamming up threads with boohoos about websites reprinting legitimate articles. You just make yoursevles look stupid.

Why should we follow the Geneva Gazette (even though we do follow it more then most) when were fighting a war against suicide bombers, and kidnappers who behead innocent people. I think the tactics we use are more humane then any one they will ever use. Sometimes you just have to do what you can to get answers.
Just my opinion, don't hate me because I believe in an "eye for an eye" philosophy

i dont know, i'm kind of torn here. yes, i believe whole heartedly that if it will save american lives, so be it. however, i also understand that some methods completely bypass our own constitution. i just dont know. if it were my buddies whose lives were at risk, i think that i'd probably ignore the law of the land, which makes me just as much of a criminal as the animals we are fighting. in time of war, its a very shady line. i'm not sure that if i were on the convening authority of a courts-martial i could faithfully execute my duties without prejudice....what do the rest of you think?

I guess people nowadays only listen to what they want and read only what they desire.

In response to some of the members here who said such source could be a propaganda in the very sense that it tries to sell the idea that America is the big bad evil, my question to you is how do you define propaganda and false information from a reliable and credible one?

Definition of "propaganda":

1) The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
2) Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.

Makes you wonder who is really to be trusted? The advocates or the opponents? When the advocate uses and information against the opponent, the opponent will preceive the information as propaganda against him/her and vice versa.

It's a never ending cycle you see. So what I'll do is read it first and cross check it with other neutral source( but credible still). There's no wrong in reading propaganda but it is wrong to be blinded by it without doing some research of your own.

I have no problems with this.

I do not think that torture with pain should be condoned nor allowed by anyone. I wish ALL parties in combat would abide by this but the animals that commit such acts will never stop using torture as a way to get information.

Now drugging them with a truth serum would be perfectly alright IMO.

But again, torture is like terrorism, it has been around for thousands of years and unfortunately will not go away

Again, do not group all US soldiers in this, it is only a select few that are usually attached with Spec. Ops units or Intel Units out side of the US Military.

[edit on 10-26-2005 by BlackBeard]

When fighting for 'freedom' and 'justice' its a mite hypocritical to then torture people without any due process no?

But wait these are Americans doing the torturing, that makes it ok... especially when the victims are just wogs.. not like there real people...

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
When fighting for 'freedom' and 'justice' its a mite hypocritical to then torture people without any due process no?

But wait these are Americans doing the torturing, that makes it ok... especially when the victims are just wogs.. not like there real people...

im sorry joe, but every time you post about freedom and justice i get a good chuckle. a self proclaimed stalinist who complains about america. how many of his own people did he kill in the purges again? it was in the millions wasnt it?

What is everyone a hypocrite now??

Just look at both of the above two posts.. What is this??

It looks to me like a game of who can point the most fingers..

Member 1:"America did that and that!!!"

Member 2:"Yeah but the commies did that and that!!!"

Get over it people!! You're hijacking a huge amount of threads with this drivel. Constantly pushing the bar lower and lower.


And like the second poster in the thread, an instant knee-jerk attempt to debunk the source if it doesn't agree to their own propaganda.

I personally am sick of this. Especially after we mods have advised you members time and time again that this nonsense isn't helping anybody and is actually harming us... The common people.

Anyway, back on topic. No replies to this post please.

[edit on 26-10-2005 by TheBandit795]

The only problem I have is Muslim leaders condemning what Americans do, but not what they’re “own” people are doing. We have plenty of organizations and people in the United States that will cry out when they feel an injustice has been done. What surprises me is the ACLU and other factions are quick to condemn America, but I never hear a peep regarding the way THEY treat Americans.

Example would be this recent story of American soldiers burning the bodies of Taliban fighters. You’ll hear how disrespectful it is to burn the bodies of Muslims because its against their religion and yada yada, but I seem to remember them dragging our soldiers through the streets chanting anti-USA slogans and burning their bodies in front of everyone. I did not hear one peep from ACLU or any other “American” faction condemning these actions, nor did I hear anything from leading Muslim officials condemning this…..




[edit on 26-10-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

Snafu, just to be clear im not really a Stalinist... i just like the name. And have a healthy respect for constructive evil...

And just out of curiosity beyond a few silly slogans as singatures where have you ever seen me make a stalinist statement?

And again, its not like im wrong, if a nation preaches freedom an justice and then goes on a litte light torturing they are hypocritical at best and evil at worst. For US operatives to be murdering people in interrogation is unacceptable. No real way round this, no justification. Murder is murder.

Who cares what the arabs do? They dont pretend to fight for any ideals beyond 'no more westerners' The US does. As leader of the deomocratic world they have a duty to make sure they keep themselves whiter than white.

You cant maintain your credibility by spreading freedom with one hand and throttling with the other.

Well said BlackBeard.

The reason we shouldn't be able to torture, or in this case, apparently murder, is because it makes us just as bad as the terrorists we're trying to fight. If we kill people, some innocent, some not, and justify it as a means to spread our doctrine of freedom, equality, and liberty, then I think we've all lost the point.

America is supposed to represent something better than the oppression, torutre, and systemic abuse of people, and in the end, isn't that what we're all sacrificing for? Isn't that what we sent our soldiers out to die for?

Originally posted by BlackBeard


Now drugging them with a truth serum would be perfectly alright IMO.


[edit on 10-26-2005 by BlackBeard]

Sodium pentathol is effective with some people, less effective with others, not effective at all with a lot of people. In fact many times when they use it a tactic is to make a person think they reveiled a secret while under the "truth serum" when they really didnt say anything but they dont realize this because they are so out of it. So they try to get you you slip up thinking the cats already out of the bag.

If it were really was reliable, it would be used a lot more

Originally posted by BlackBeard
Now drugging them with a truth serum would be perfectly alright IMO.

A truth serum (e.g. scopolomine) merely imitates the feeilin of major intoxificaton, thereby reducing inhabitions and theoretically making someone more likely to tell the truth.

How many of you know someone in their local bar who is ex SAS/SBS/Delta/Navy SEALS when they're pi**ed? Ask yourself, would you believe a drunk?

Torture, in all of it's forms, is against the Geneva Convention. Point to note is that the U.S. has never signed up to this convention.

As for the arguement "they do worse to us, so we shouldn't feel so bad" - this makes us just as bad as them. The fact that we play by the rules is what seperates the evil, nasty scrotes from the good guys (us).

This isn't the first time torture and murder has occured in War. It's happened in every war and on both sides, it's nothing new. So many of you act as though you actually care. Yes we are the USA and yes we do both of these things and always have. What makes it different now? Nobody likes either torture or murder but that is part of war and always has been. I can only imagine if we had the media and camcorders when we arrived here at plymouth rock what kind of a nation this would be right now.