no chance for the grail

Since the very fictional "Da Vinci Code" there is no real chance for the truth to come out! If there was a very real and serious research team to come about with findings regarding this subject, there would be no chance for them.......this is what bothers me about flogging a dead horse! I wish there was even a minimal chance of us know some truth.

of what the truth must be. What do you think it is that will never come out now?

Or better yet, what the heck are you talking about? The grail was the cup of jesus or his bloodline, depending on what fantasy your buying into. I read your post have no clue as to what you are alluding to.

I believe a little clarification is in order for us slower members

Wupy

I did some research for myself and found that the data agreed with what most researchers have said: The grail is a medieval legend.

Here's a nice page on it:

The oldest form of the Grail legend has Percival as the hero:
www.timelessmyths.com...

...and then Galahad:
www.timelessmyths.com...

The story of Joseph of Amramathea appears only after 1200 AD:
www.timelessmyths.com...

Crystalinks suggests that it may be the fusion of Christianity with Celtic legends, and there's much that makes sense about that idea:
www.crystalinks.com...

The cup actually being symbolic also part of a ritual that is actually proof of God like powers within every Human yet also proof stating all religion is wrong. Things learned from ancient Egypt. No these couldn't possibly come out it would end the world

Sorry I have a wild imagination or do I....

Anyway here is The Knights Templar bit
www.ufodigest.com...

Originally posted by fishmaster
Since the very fictional "Da Vinci Code" there is no real chance for the truth to come out! If there was a very real and serious research team to come about with findings regarding this subject, there would be no chance for them.......this is what bothers me about flogging a dead horse! I wish there was even a minimal chance of us know some truth.

[edit on 26-10-2005 by japike]

my personal belief that the "holy grail" is actually the moment of enlightenment to the true meaning behind life.

Thats a good point. I most agree with you there.

The question comes to mind, what is the true meaning? Maybe the search of the true meaning is the search itself...

I should start a different topic but would love to here thoughts of true meaning. Beyond the book what is it all really?

Originally posted by McGuirk
my personal belief that the "holy grail" is actually the moment of enlightenment to the true meaning behind life.

I really am still searching...
i really wish i had enough money to live off of and not have to worry about working and such so i could spend more time searching.. it really is difficult to dedicate yourself to a solid soul search for the meaning ... i recently began trying AP but that is for another topic, i don't want to steer this one away from it's original topic.

If you are interested in Grail Lore, have a look at this thread and let me know what you think...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I remember reading an idea that the holy grail has roots as a form of alchemy, and that some believe it has something to do with a from of self discovery and enlightenment. I guess it had something to do with all the symbolism involved, and if I stretch my memory wasn't there a German opera that had something to do with the alchemist version of the Holy Grail and that it was something Hitler was interested in after gazing upon the spear that supposedly pierced the side of Jesus? It's all very mysterious....

did any one else read the thread about how all the religious stuff might have been just preists eating magic mushies?

maybe the grail is what they drank some kind of tea out of?

magic mushrooms... flesh of the gods... it's hard to think that magic mushies weren't used at some stage of experimentation to contact god... I know I've swallowed more than I should one night and thought God waved his finger at me with a motion that implied I was somewhere I shouldn't be... but it didn't feel like the holy grail or anything right... just mind blowingly overwhelming for a glimpse into the different faces of reality...

Originally posted by tiddly54
did any one else read the thread about how all the religious stuff might have been just preists eating magic mushies?

maybe the grail is what they drank some kind of tea out of?

eatin shrooms and drinkin absynthe from the holy grail... i must say that is a bold statement indeed! if you want to get into the whole religion debate i say we need to start another thread.. i dont really want to hijack this thread!

back on topic, yes hilter and himmler were very interested in many occult things. they performed many experiments on human subjects for a variety of reasons, one of them was to create a super soldier.

going back to the alchemy stand point of the holy grail... what would it symbolize then in alchemy? human transmutation?(sorry, yea i know its from an anime cartoon, but isnt the show based in some reality of alchemy?)

Originally posted by cyberfenix
magic mushrooms... flesh of the gods... it's hard to think that magic mushies weren't used at some stage of experimentation...

EDIT: im going to edit my own post as i already had a thread removed and i dont want to get in anymore trouble

[edit on 10/26/2005 by McGuirk]

I never experimented with dangerous drugs . . . it was full-blown research!

I have moved away from psychodelics, and have continued my research into esoterica, including alchemy.

Chritien de Troyes' original story can be read at face value. Or it can be seen as a political critique of an apostate who had just been elected Holy Roman Emperor. Or it can be seen as an allegory, along the line of "Pilgrim's Progress."

There are some similarities between alchemy and the grail myth. For instance, both of them claimed to be in search of physical matter that possessed supernatural qualities. Both systems stressed the inner qualifications of the seeker as being essential to the quest.

The reason I don't think either was talking about psychoactive substances is partly because anyone can consume mushrooms or drink a special tea, regardless of their spiritual state. The grail, as well as the philosopher's stone, could only be percieved or attained by someone who was pure.

A second reason is that the grail and the philosophers' stone were both expected to provide material benefits, which could alleve poverty and suffering in ordinary waking consciousness. Whatever their impact on the human imagination, psychoactive substances cannot make such promises.
.

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the holy grail with regards to alchemy was a method by which one might be able to obtain a complete understanding of the universe, information which is supposedly locked inside the mind/spirit. Once this is achieved, of course it is felt that one would become like a God. I know this is a little vague, but in an abstract manner I can sort of understand. Kind of like the philosophers stone. While the idea is to create gold, I guess we have to ask what the gold represents on a symbolic level. Was the cup not golden? I have heard that the stories of alchemists hiding away playing with substances were really studying ancient texts and programs for the mind in order to obtain this level of bliss. But then again, I could be wrong. But it is kinda cool to think that there is some secret method to unlock a part of the brain/spirit that has been hidden for so long. In that sense, it seems religion tries to do the same thing, considering the ceremonies and religious symbols and the testimonies that people have religious experiences. Any thoughts?

Originally posted by cyberfenix
. . . the holy grail with regards to alchemy was a method by which one might be able to obtain a complete understanding of the universe . . . it is felt that one would become like a God.

While the idea is to create gold, I guess we have to ask what the gold represents on a symbolic level. Was the cup not golden? I have heard that the stories of alchemists hiding away playing with substances were really studying ancient texts and programs for the mind in order to obtain this level of bliss.

Any thoughts?

Well, those concepts are the products of modern authors, selling books to modern audiences. The Grail Romance cycles of De Troyes, Malory, et al don't mention it as an allegory. Modern people have chosen to read it that way.

The grail Romances were purportedly Christian stories. So a goal of becoming "like a God" doesn't really fit in with the purpose of works. Again, that is a purely modern eisegesis (reading into the text something that's not there originally.)

The same with the alchemical search for the philosophers' stone. In later years (after the reformation, during the "Enlightenment"), poets and popular writers took up what they saw as the symbolism of alchemy, and read into it various "post-Christian" meanings. They never claimed to have actually succeeded at making Gold.

There were, during the classical period of alchemy, men who had claimed to have succeeded in transmuting one physical substance into another. Unlike the later mystics and poets, these men were Christians in the orthodox sense of the term. And they claimed to have transmuted physcial substances. What is more startling still, these men swore upon their salvation and faith in Jesus Christ that they were telling the truth in their claims. If you are a devout person, or know someone who is intensely religious you can understand how serious they are when making such a claim.

And it is not just one or two of them. I have a catalogue of the fellows who claimed to have succeded, and who also swore on their faith, and it runs to nearly a dozen names.

Here's an example, from Basil Valentinus' "Last Will and Testament" (Emphasis added):

"O Lord God Almighty, merciful gracious Father of Thine Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, who art only the Lord of Sabaoth, the principle of all things that are made by thy word, and definite end of all creatures above and below; I, poor miserable man and earthworm, return thanks with my babbling tounge from the innermost center of my heart, who hast been pleased to enlighten me with the great light of Thy heavenly and earthly wisdom, and the greatest mysteries of the created secrecies and treasures of this world, together with Thy divine saving word, by which I learn to know Thine Almighty power and wonders. To Thee belongs eternal praise, honour and glory, from eternity unto eternity, that Thou hast bestowed on me health and livelihood, strength and ability to be helpful to my fellow Christians in their necessities and inflicted infirmities with these mystical healing medicines, together with such spiritual comforts, to raise the drooping spirits. Lord, to Thee alone belongs power, might and glory, to Thee is the praise, honour and gratefulness, for all the mercies and graces Thou has bestowed upon me, and hast preserved me therein to this my great age, and lowest comforts, be not angry with me that I deliver up to Thee, mine eternal Creator, the keys of my stewardship; wrapped up in this parchment, according to the duty my calling and conscience calls for; with these Thou did suffer me to keep house the most of my time till now, Thou hast called and foreseen me to be thy servant and steward, and hast graciously afforded, that I should enjoy the noble sweet fruits which were gathered in thy almonary to my last instant, and which now O Lord lieth in Thy power. I beseech Thee for the dear merits of Jesus Christ, come now, when Thou pleasest, enclose my heart, receive my soul into Thy heavenly throne of grace; let her be recommended unto Thee graciously O Thou faithful God, who hast redeemed her on the Holy Cross with the most precious tincture of the true blood of Thy holy body: then is my life well ended on this earth, grant to the body a quiet rest, till at the last day, body and soul join again, and are of a heavenly composition: for now my only desire is to be dissolved, and to be with my Lord Christ: the which Thou, Almighty, Holy, and Heavenly Trinity grant to me, and all good Christian believers. Amen."

These are hardly the words of a swindler or con-man. Nor do they seem (to me, who has read almost all of Valentine's works) to be the "new age" religion of "it's all symbolism, baby."

Again, it is the modern mind which seeks to make everything into an allegory. We do that with alchemy, with the grail romances; even the modern church itself shrinks from the claims of the early Christians, and now sees the feeding of 5000 and the raising of the dead as "symbolism."

Worse than apostates, we don't even deny the claims of the ancients. We refuse to even given them credit for telling pretty lies. Instead, we suck the life out of these ancient narratives, and run a stake through their heart, in guise of "discerning the inner truth" we claim to find between the lines.

To do so is to mock the past. For my part, I wish people would ignore it entirely, rather than trying to reshape into their own image.


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Appreciate your words, and I can definately see where you are coming from. It is too easy to read what we would like to read in the search for something we wish to find. I for one cannot pretend to have any understanding of what the Holy Grail really is! Sometimes I can't help but feel our ability to question and interpret can often be a hinderance, but then I would like to think that when we come across a truth, as in a word of God, then it would jump out at us, not be left to be questioned with all other literature. As for alchemy, isn't it symbolically and realistically a quest to understand the way the universe is made? Perhaps an attempt to understand how God made it? By the way, GREAT quote. Quite moving actually.

I have always thought of the Holf Grail within an alchemical contexts...many people have looked for the Philosopher's Stone to literally tun lead into gold

I would be interested to read what the populace that of the grail at the time of these writings. Do we have any writings and discussions of this? Any esoteric groups from that time taking it as anything other than a story?

That would be of interest to me.

I love reading about the Grail...if the DaVinci Code did anything else then at least it brought the Gail back into discussion...and for that matter books such as Holy Blood Holy Grail are being read by more people now.

Take it easy

Were not the early mediaeval version of the grail story a metaphor ? A journey of self-discovery if you will, rather than a search for something corporeal ? A striving towards the honourable principles displayed in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

My understanding was that the real teaching of alchemy was the same kind of idea, and much like later magic practices - an act of transformation, 'tis true, but again as a metaphor, as it refers to the transformation of consciousness, and that brings about a change in the world, rather than anything 'physical'.

The turning of base metals into gold, has a clear resonance with the transformation from ignorant into illuminated.

... but only if you read it that way. I guess the interpretation is the nemesis here, we can read these stories alongside contemporaneous literature, but bereft of the direct experience of living in the times in which these stories took place, we are missing the whole context.

I wonder if our narrative will be discussed in the same way in 1000 years time ?