Faith Without Works

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Originally posted by saint4God
Okay, but salvation is not negated due to lack of works.

Is it negated due to a lack of faith?

Hey hey! Now we're gettin' in deep. Good thing I had a thread on it:

Do Ex-Christians and Non-Christians get a chance at heaven...

By "negated" I presume you mean they had salvation in the past. One cannot gain salvation in the first place without faith.

Faith --------- Works---------Grace ???????????

Remember the other man on the Cross with Jesus that did not make Fun of Jesus.. The theft on Jesus right side told the other theft to shut up because Jesus did not do anything to get him put on the cross, and the said the Jesus was a good man.

Jesus said to him that before sunset , you will be with in paradise. The guy made it into Paradise without WORKS.. He got in to Paradise with Grace.. He had no Ideal who Jesus was...

Grace is the third of the gifts from Jesus. Lets say that you are bed sick and that's were you will die. So you don't have any time anymore to think of things of this Earth any more, You know you are not someone that talked to Jesus everyday and now you have better get in touch with him NOW !!!!!

I have always though that Jesus does give some people more time to get to know him, and then, there are times when you die so fast that you didn't even know it,, I hope you wake up being beside Jesus than not.....

Faith------ Works-----Grace-------- There are three ways to get there, So Don't miss the Bus OK..........

Raphael_UO said on the first page:

My friends, it is not about faith; it is not about works. It is about divine love (agape). Faith and works are too often thought of as different aspects of a spiritual life, but they are both reflections of God's perfect love cultivated within our hearts. Faith is nothing more than loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. It is through God's love for us and our love for Him that we are saved.

Yes, love is what we are supposed to do as Christians, it’s probably the most important emotion of all! But it will not save us! Where in the Bible does it say we are saved by love?

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Not to mention John 3:16 (which I'm sure we all know by heart!)

*Follow the commandments - You recieve everlasting life

But who in this ENTIRE WORLD (except Christ Himself!) has kept all of the Commandments?

Paul said that the Commandments were given to make us aware of the sin in our lives.

Romans 7:7
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Hey, I have another question for you guys:
Would you consider "repentance" to be a "work?" (As to be nessesary for Salvation?)

Originally posted by just me 2
Yes, love is what we are supposed to do as Christians, it’s probably the most important emotion of all! But it will not save us! Where in the Bible does it say we are saved by love?

One should not seperate one's faith in God from one's love of God. Nor should one seperate God's grace from His love.

and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

If one's faith saves but one has not love what is saved? Nothing; for that is what one is without love.

Not to mention John 3:16 (which I'm sure we all know by heart!)

God's love for us is clearly visible in John 3:16

For God so loved the world...

Paul said that the Commandments were given to make us aware of the sin in our lives.

Jesus was once asked:

Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?

His reply was simple:

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

But, he went on to clarify something very important:

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

These two commandments (Love God, love your neighbor) are the basis for all the law. One can learn to love with a perfect love by knowing what is not perfect love. Edit: But knowing what is not perfect love is not a requirement to know what sin is. One can know what perfect love is. It is love without condition.

Hey, I have another question for you guys:
Would you consider "repentance" to be a "work?" (As to be nessesary for Salvation?)

Repentance and forgiveness is a reflection of the love we carry in our hearts. One need not testify their inadequacies before God in order to repent and be forgiven.

At the end of Luke 7 there is a story of a woman who saw Jesus for who He was and repented not through words but through action driven by her love for Him.

Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loveth little.

Her faith saved her. Not because she proclaimed "Jesus is Lord" but because she saw the Truth, loved, and let her love guide her actions.



[edit on 10-11-2005 by Raphael_UO]

If one's faith saves but one has not love what is saved? Nothing; for that is what one is without love.

That passage was not talking about Salvation! It is talking about spiritual gifts. (Read the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians.)

God's love for us is clearly visible in John 3:16

Yes, it is, but finish the verse.

For God so loved the world...

"...that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, will not perish, but have everlasting life."



Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Yes, that is true, but again, Jesus was not speaking of Salvation in that passage. My pastor always tells me the most important thing to remember when interpreting Scripture is to interpret within it's context.
*Who was speaking?
*Who were they speaking to?
*Why were they saying it?

Anybody can pull just about any verse from Scripture and twist it around to make their point! That is called "Proof-Texting." I'm not saying that's what you are doing, I'm just trying to help you see Scripture a little more clearly.

Hey, I have another question for you guys:
Would you consider "repentance" to be a "work?" (As to be nessesary for Salvation?)

One need not testify their inadequacies before God in order to repent and be forgiven.

2 Corinthians 7:10 "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death."

Romans 10:9 "...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Mark 1:4
And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Originally posted by just me 2
That passage was not talking about Salvation! It is talking about spiritual gifts. (Read the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians.)

Indeed the chapter is talking about gifts. But, it is not the only topic in the chapter.

Take the whole verse:

1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

If the comparison between faith and love (agape,charity) was not intended the verse could have skipped the "... I have all faith, so that ..." and left the verse to only refer to gifts versus love.

"...that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, will not perish, but have everlasting life."

Would you believe this segways directly into the next point I made?

More specifically, "belief in" is a prerequisite to "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

One cannot love God with all one's heart, mind and soul without first believing in God.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Yes, that is true, but again, Jesus was not speaking of Salvation in that passage. My pastor always tells me the most important thing to remember when interpreting Scripture is to interpret within it's context.
*Who was speaking?
*Who were they speaking to?
*Why were they saying it?

You failed to consider the "something very important":

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This line gives the underlying context to all the law and all the words/actions of the prophets.

Anybody can pull just about any verse from Scripture and twist it around to make their point! That is called "Proof-Texting." I'm not saying that's what you are doing, I'm just trying to help you see Scripture a little more clearly.

One sees with one's eyes, but one understands with one's heart.

2 Corinthians 7:10 "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death."

Romans 10:9 "...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Mark 1:4
And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Where these verses meant to counter my position?

Repentance is a movement of the heart. No words are required for God knows the contents of all men's hearts.

Which speaks louder to you, someone talking about their faith, or someone displaying their faith through their deeds?

Our deeds are tools we use to evaluate our intentions. Our intentions define us, to ourselves. Actions speak louder than words to ourselves. To know the why of what we do is to know our intentions. To evaluate our actions is to evaluate our intentions. Deeds are Actions. Behaviors are not always actions. Behaviors are conditioned responses based upon how we interpret our interactions with others, and our opinions.

[edit on 16-11-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]

(Quoting myself from thread entitled "Why Atheist Just Don't Get It"):

Going from the known to the unknown can be an extremely mind boggling experience for all of us. We challenge ourselves to be more than the sum of our parts. We find our understanding of how things are to be over scrutinized, and perceive others as a threat when what others know contrast with what we know. Going from the known to the unknown always requires us to re-evaluate what we accept as truth, and forces us to recognize that we do not know what we do not know. The hurtle we are trying to overcome can easily be perceived as being too high. In some cases it is easier to just go under the hurtle, which gets us to the same place as someone who went over the hurtle. Do we need to go over the hurtle, or is that concept our interpretation of the expectations others place upon the whole of society?

The hurtle is your hurtle. The hurtle represents where we are on our journey. Our hurtles must be acknowledged by us before we can recognize what is preventing us from excelling at whatever it is we want to excel at. We are creatures of habit, and it has been our habit to treat the symptoms. We tend to forget the symptoms are the result of the condition or disease, and we tend to neglect the condition or disease, because it is the symptoms that concern us first.

Information.

Knowledge.

Wisdom.

Opinion.

Intent.

Again: We are creatures of habit.

We have a tendency to initially integrate all incoming information as: “How does this affect me?”, but we do this under the guise of our genetic disposition. Our “genetic disposition” of “Self Preservation”, the first rule of humanity is our deepest instinct. Instincts are knowledge passed down from the information our ancestors accepted as truth, out of necessity (or perceived necessity). So, let us collectively and openly consider how it is our brains work to see if it is possible to create a concept of God when there is no God. Sure, we assume it is an impossible task. If it weren’t an impossible task we assume someone in the past few thousand years would have been able to make a strong enough case to stick. Incidentally, perhaps some did, which is (maybe?) why we have some evidence of it scattered and hidden away in religions, and numerous other mediums as well.

Our perceptions and definitions may vary slightly, but consider the possibility of the following ways to describe the intangible concepts they represent. They may vary slightly from your perspective, but just consider the perspective exists, even if it is only the result of their (our) deductive reasoning. At the very least the following concepts deserve consideration. How are we (the observers) observing? What constitutes an observation?

Information is acquired knowledge/wisdom perceived under the constraints of our opinions.

Knowledge is the conclusions we come to accept as truth, drawing these conclusions from how our opinions and intent cause us to perceive the information.

Opinions are the assumptions we come to, and use to fill in the blanks with our best educated guess, that guess being the result of our observations and analysis of our interactions with others.

Wisdom is experience using knowledge.

Intent is ultimately demonstrated by us when we are forced to make the toughest of decisions. Intent is ultimately represented by the genetic disposition of “Self Preservation”, or “Self Preserve”, AKA “Self Before I Serve”, or at least that is how we recognize it.

Law Of Association is how we perceive the brain to work. We teach our children how to count and work our way “up” to trigonometry, not visa-versa.

We tend to say either out loud or to ourselves: “I know your kind”. But, ultimately what we know relies on how we choose to determine what the above Bold words mean to us, along with a few other words. And, if someone chooses to say to people “I know your kind”, people choose to know they don’t. Being known is perceived as not always beneficial, due to the perceptions we have that it does not benefit us (Self Preserve) to be known to others. We are fearful of being known. We hide behind screen names and choose only to open up how we think, our most passionate and intimate thoughts, to people we perceive as being separated by great distances and far away.

Perhaps we don’t know what we don’t know until we choose to view (and then experience) the world and every aspect there in as “How does this affect everything”, instead of “How does this effect me”.

Perhaps there is no “Eye” until there is no “I”. In thought. In practice. Information, Knowledge, Opinion, Wisdom, Intent.

“How does this affect me?”

Verses . … .. . . . . .

“How does this effect all of existence?”

Everyone wants to belong. People tend to fear being known for who they are out of fear of not belonging.

What do you guys think?

quote: 2 Corinthians 7:10 "For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death."

Romans 10:9 "...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Mark 1:4 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Where these verses meant to counter my position?

These verses were meant to show you that repentance and belief are needed for forgiveness of sins and therefore necessary for Salvation-
Yes, we are to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength, but it is not necessary for Salvation! That kind of love comes afterwards, as we gradually get to know Him through spending time with Him in prayer and in the Word.

jfdarby~you said:

Faith------ Works-----Grace-------- There are three ways to get there, So Don't miss the Bus OK..........

Faith and Grace, YES! But "works" NO! We cannot make it to heaven on our own.
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Originally posted by just me 2
Are you good enough to get into Heaven?
Go to livingwaters.com... to find out.

Wow saint just me 2, I failed this test miserably . I guess I don't have what it takes to make it to heaven by my own good works. Has anyone taken this test and passed? I'd like to hear from someone who did.


[edit on 17-11-2005 by saint4God]

I failed this test miserably . I guess I don't have what it takes to make it to heaven by my own good works. Has anyone taken this test and passed? I'd like to hear from someone who did.

That's the whole point! Nobody on earth can pass except for Christ Himself! That's why we need His forgiveness and must repent of our sins and trust in Him and His sacrifice as payment for the wrongs that we have committed against God.

I love this saying, but I have no idea who said it first:

He paid a debt He didn't owe,
because we owed a debt we couldn't pay.

Originally posted by just me 2
These verses were meant to show you that repentance and belief are needed for forgiveness of sins and therefore necessary for Salvation-
Yes, we are to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength, but it is not necessary for Salvation! That kind of love comes afterwards, as we gradually get to know Him through spending time with Him in prayer and in the Word.

Repent what? Sins? What are sins? Disobeying the commandments? What is the greatest of the commandments from which all the law hang?

Sin is a choice not to love with perfect love. When we sin, we turn our backs on love. By turning our backs on love, we turn our backs on God, for God is love.

Repentance is recognizing one's sin then choosing not to sin again. It is recognizing the lack of love in one's actions and thoughts then choosing to love God with all your heart, mind, strength, and soul and your neighbor as yourself.

"That kind of" love does not come later. It is present in our hearts the moment we accept God within our heart. For God is "that kind of" love. If "that kind of" love is not there, God is not there. Without "that kind of" love we are nothing and there is no salvation because God does not dwell in our hearts.