NEWS: World Leaders Demand End To U.S Blockade Of Cuba

Bay of Pigs: 1961
Cuban Missile Crisis: 1962

I have yet to see how Castro started this problem and not America.

As for the mob trying to take out Castro, the C.I.A. which is a Government agency got involved and due to this it is a problem with the Government not just the agency. If you can't control aspects of your own people...than it is wise to remove those aspects.

Originally posted by Odium
If you can't control aspects of your own people...than it is wise to remove those aspects.

Odium, Warren Commission be damned, I'll personally believe to my dying day that is exactly what happened to JFK--for exactly the reason you state above. I dislike bringing new branches of this topic out this way, but the Cuban situation really had this country in a turmoil politically. JFK was regarded by many, especially the old line conservatives, as a loose cannon who really needed to go for the good of the country. Amongst other things, airline hijackings to Cuba were frequent and persisted for several years. The option of shooting one of our own airliners down as a pretext to go to war with Cuba is indicative of just how badly the Cuban situation was viewed inside the Kennedy administration.

JFK personally screwed up the Bay Of Pigs operation by not providing air cover and by placing all the command & control & communications capabilities on one ship--which was predictably & promptly taken out by the Cuban Air Force. Eisenhower publicly chastized JFK for that fiasco. Further, JFK and his people were extremely naive concerning military matters and international politics and were easily sold a bill of goods by the American based Cubans planning the invasion, who said the Cuban people would rise up and throw Castro out just as soon as the invasion force landed in Cuba. JFK's own intelligence people told him differently, yet he still allowed the invasion to proceed without providing backup forces.

This entire period of history has been a cloudy, confused mess for America and many blame Castro personally for creating the mess and for the way it eventually led to JFK's and his brother Robert's death. For the above, as well as a variety of other reasons, the economic embargo of Cuba is not likely to be lifted as long as Fidel is alive--no matter how many countries try to change it.

You can call that vindictiveness or holding a grudge or anything else you desire (and probably be right), but that won't change anything--only Fidel Castros death will do that.



[edit on 17-10-2005 by Astronomer68]

actually grain ships from cuba come and go from wa state all the time. the only restriction is:


1 us companies doing business with cuba

2 us citizens going to cuba, however if you do go you have to go through another country and cuba wont stamp your passport so the us gov wont know you've been there


the definition of blockade:

"A blockade is an effort usually (but not always) at sea, to prevent supplies from reaching the enemy. It is an illegal act under international law as it is construed as an act of war. "

which is why in 62 it was called a quarantine. since we didn't want a war



as to the nukes back in 62. well even though i wasn't alive that year doesn't mean i didn't read history. besides the bm's that were there russia had several tactical nukes or battle field nukes there and when they pulled the bm's out castro tried as hard as he could to allow the battlefield nukes to stay. russia didn't want any part of him having access to any nuke weapons as they regarded castro as a rebel who would most likely use them

bigx01, those ships are carrying grain to keep the people of Cuba from dying enmass. In spite of the hatred of Fidel, this country still allows foods, medicines and some other commodoties to flow to Cuba for humanitarian reasons. We have no problem with the people of Cuba, only its leaders. To this day I can still see the executions by firing squad (which were televized in America) that seemed to go on day after day after day when Fidel came to power.

[edit on 17-10-2005 by Astronomer68]

The embargo of Cuba was imposed by the United States when Castro nationalized U.S. properties in Cuba, established links to the Soviet bloc, and supported assorted anti-American countries and organizations in the context of the Cold War. For decades the embargo helped make Cuba the greatest Third World drain on a deteriorating Soviet economy.

I really doubt the embargo will be lifted before Castro dies.

Don't forget how he tried for years to export his revolution throughout central & south america and how he sent troops to fight in Angola in Africa. The U.S. really was betrayed by Castro--hell, we had TV camera crews living with him in the jungles, we watched the revolution unfold day by day. When he marched into Havana it was live on TV and everyone was proud for him--and then the executions started and the truth started to come out.

Can you see yet Odium?

[edit on 17-10-2005 by Astronomer68]

Originally posted by subz

Shots would it kill you to stay on topic once in your life?

Sorry if you took it that way. That was not my intent. I was simply Denying Your clear bias on the subject since you left out the fact that your own country working with NATO, also had missisles pointed at Russian.

You can get some real interesting info on the subject here

Why the Cuban Trade Embargo Should Be Maintained

[edit on 10/17/2005 by shots]

Originally posted by shots
Sorry if you took it that way. That was not my intent. I was simply Denying Your clear bias on the subject since you left out the fact that your own country working with NATO, also had missisles pointed at Russian.

Shots, I dont care if the United Kingdom allowed the United States to base nuclear missiles outside of Nottingham. That has absolutely no bearing on this topic whatsoever.

If I was saying "any country that allows nuclear missiles on their territory is wrong" then carried on to say "Britain is holier than thou" then you might have a point in what you are trying to discuss. But there has been nothing of the sort said so your raising of the issue is nothing more than trying to incite some nationalistic passion you think I have for my home country of the United Kingdom. Please stop it.

There is no bias with me to the government of the United Kingdom. I despise them as much as I despise your government. Happy now? Now can we please get back to the topic at hand, i.e. Cuba's relationship with the United States.

[edit on 17/10/05 by subz]

Having said what I posted about Fidel previously, let me conclude with the following:

When Fidel set out to overthrow Batista, I don't think he was a communist and I don't think he became one until just about the time the revolution was successful. Castro had a brilliant plan to get rid of Batista, but he really had no effective plan for running the government. His brother Raul and his chief lieutenant Che Guevierra however were confirmed communists and Guevierra did have such a plan. When Castro was still flushed from the victory of the revolution and essentially still basking in the glory of the moment, the communists set about taking control of the government and Castro along with it. By the time Castro came back down to earth the takeover was complete.

Castro could still have turned everything back to democracy and the principles he espoused had he wanted to--he was that revered. (as an aside, I distinctly remember when Fidel went to give a speech from the palace in front of thousands upon thousands of adoring countrymen. A large flock of white doves was released for the event and one of them actually landed on Fidel's shoulder as he stood there in front of the crowd. Up to that point the crowd had been cheering and was very boistrous, but when that bird landed the entire crowd went totally silent and then got down on their knees to pray. Yeah, Castro could have done anything he wanted and everyone would have gone along with it.) Castro took the easy way out though and let the communists continue taking control.

Personally, I have a hell of a lot of respect for Castro the man and for what he did. I don't like him, but that's as much for what he didn't do as for what he did.

[edit on 17-10-2005 by Astronomer68]

Originally posted by Astronomer68
Having said what I posted about Fidel previously, let me conclude with the following:

When Fidel set out to overthrow Batista, I don't think he was a communist and I don't think he became one until just about the time the revolution was successful. Castro had a brilliant plan to get rid of Batista, but he really had no effective plan for running the government. His brother Raul and his chief lieutenant Che Guevierra however were confirmed communists and Guevierra did have such a plan. When Castro was still flushed from the victory of the revolution and essentially still basking in the glory of the moment, the communists set about taking control of the government and Castro along with it. By the time Castro came back down to earth the takeover was complete.

Castro could still have turned everything back to democracy and the principles he espoused had he wanted to--he was that revered. (as an aside, I distinctly remember when Fidel went to give a speech from the palace in front of thousands upon thousands of adoring countrymen. A large flock of white doves was released for the event and one of them actually landed on Fidel's shoulder as he stood there in front of the crowd. Up to that point the crowd had been cheering and was very boisterous, but when that bird landed the entire crowd went totally silent and then got down on their knees to pray. Yeah, Castro could have done anything he wanted and everyone would have gone along with it.) Castro took the easy way out though and let the communists continue taking control.

Personally, I have a hell of a lot of respect for Castro the man and for what he did. I don't like him, but that's as much for what he didn't do as for what he did.

Thanks for those accounts Astronomer, I appreciate them. Especially coming from you. This all boils down to two points 1) Castro crossed the United States and 2) Castro is a communist. I don't think anyone could argue those two points. However, this malarkey about the United States continuing its own economic blockade of Cuba because he is a dictator is a load of hooey.

Why cant the US be honest and say:

"We don't like that old man, he's crossed us in the past and we don't want to see him succeed. If that means making the Cuban people realize he has to go by lowering their quality of life, then so be it. We also don't want to see a Communist country succeed so denying access to the Worlds largest economy is designed to cripple the economic view of Communism, not because its inherently flawed but because we have actively sought to bring it down.

We also have no problem with him being a dictator so long as he would convert to capitalism and compensate Americans for the property that was seized in the Revolution."

If the American government said that my respect for them would sky-rocket. I wouldn't like their message but an honest person trumps a liar any which way you look at it. Come on America, tell us what you really believe for once

subz could you be any more brainwashed by socialism?

really, its not even your business, its between us and cuba, castro turned cuba against us for no reason and tried to assist our enemy, how are we the bad guy? all we did was oppose his actions and his suppressive dictatorship.

how was his "war" justified or his suppression after?

we did nothing to cuba to deserve their hostility, they deserve every bit of our hostility after aiding the USSR.

its simple, communists leave = no more embargo, UN and everyone demanding this be damned, atleast untill theres reason to forgive cuba.

Originally posted by namehere
subz could you be any more brainwashed by socialism?

I could say the same about you and capitalism.

Originally posted by namehere
really, its not even your business, its between us and cuba, castro turned cuba against us for no reason and tried to assist our enemy, how are we the bad guy? all we did was oppose his actions and his suppressive dictatorship.

Oh please, I suppose Iraq was your business too. I suppose Iran is your business too. I suppose Vietnam was your business too. I have an opinion and you cant stop me expressing it. If you dont like it, tough.

How are "you" the bad guy? Well if you equate yourself with your goverment...your country actively supports the dictators in Pakistan and Uzbekistan. Are they not oppressive as well? What gives you the right to say Castro is evil because he is a dictator yet the likes of Karimov and Musharraf are perfectly acceptable. A little consistency please.

Originally posted by namehere
how was his "war" justified or his suppression after?

Where did I say Castro's "war" was justified? Where did I say any war was justified? Castro started a revolution, not a war any way. The war came in the form of the Bay of Pigs, which incidently was not started by Castro.

Originally posted by namehere
we did nothing to cuba to deserve their hostility

You've got to be kidding me. How many times has the CIA tried to kill this guy? Did nothing to deserve their hositility? Give me a break.

Originally posted by namehere
they deserve every bit of our hostility after aiding the USSR.

Yes thats the true American attitude to the right to self determination. You can be anything you wish so long as its what we say. Henry Ford would be proud. Why was the USSR your enemy? Because they chose Communism over Capitalism? How did that honestly affect the United States? If the idea of communism spread to the States, a lot of American ultra-rich would of lost their fortunes...thats the true reason America deemed communism evil. The plebs like you and I are left to debate the validity of the conflict whilst the rich count their blessings (and their millions) and thank God communism didnt take away their fortunes.

Originally posted by namehere
its simple, communists leave = no more embargo

Then why trade with China? Are they not communists now? Come on, you dont actually believe everything you read do you? The United States doesnt even care about communism any more because it is dead in the water. The threat to the United States ultra-rich is over, they've won. They get to keep their billions whilst we work in perpetual servitude. I hope your happy with that outcome Do you get a piece of the pie? I dont think so.

Originally posted by namehere
UN and everyone demanding this be damned, atleast untill theres reason to forgive cuba.

Like I said, if the United States was honest in its objections to Cuba I would respect their honesty. But you've bought the whole string of crud argument thats been floated by your government for the last 40 years. You've gone from buying it to selling it and you dont even know it.

You should really re-examine for yourself the reasons why Cuba is still under U.S sanctions. Let me give you a hand, its not that they're communist (China MFN?), its not that he's a dictator (Uzbekistan and Pakistan are US Allies). So what does that leave?

[edit on 18/10/05 by subz]

A oppresive govenment that tortures\kills its Any citizen for mere verbal disagreements With the Communist manifesto.

Vrs.

A Imperialist Country that tortures a few muslims, and lets the media\people protest agianst it.

And the world turns a Blind eye to Cuba, and gripes about a far lesser "evil".

Wisdom is proven by its actions.

Capitalists support "dictatorships". And Socialist support Communist dictators. While Capitalists are ruled by Greed, Socialists are Blinded by Power. And The Sins of All the World Governments trods upon the graves of the oppressed.

Originally posted by subz
I could say the same about you and capitalism.

i'll take self determanism and earning my way through life over having what i earn stolen like a slave and being forced to live like everyone else.

Oh please, I suppose Iraq was your business too. I suppose Iran is your business too. I suppose Vietnam was your business too. I have an opinion and you cant stop me expressing it. If you dont like it, tough.

iraq isnt 200 miles away, nor is iran and south vietnam was trying to remain free and needed help, they invited us to help, simple as that.

opinion isnt my point here, i meant foreign nations need to let it go and consider our reasoning before demanding things like this, its a personal issue to many here, not something to just suddenly forgive because a demand, im sure turkey and russia feel this same thing for our missiles being there

How are "you" the bad guy? Well if you equate yourself with your goverment...your country actively supports the dictators in Pakistan and Uzbekistan. Are they not oppressive as well? What gives you the right to say Castro is evil because he is a dictator yet the likes of Karimov and Musharraf are perfectly acceptable. A little consistency please.

i say "we" because the thing with cuba is mostly beyond just our government, ex cubans and their lobby groups are the ones wanting this and pushing for it and many support it.

our government only support pakistan because they dont want an aggessive government against us/them who has nuclear weapons.

uzbekistan, well aside from afghanistan, they didnt bother there untill 2001.

hypocracy but then again cuba is personal to many here

Where did I say Castro's "war" was justified? Where did I say any war was justified? Castro started a revolution, not a war any way. The war came in the form of the Bay of Pigs, which incidently was not started by Castro.

revolution i mean, bad wording on my part

You've got to be kidding me. How many times has the CIA tried to kill this guy? Did nothing to deserve their hositility? Give me a break.

after what he did in nearly causing a war, you call it unprovoked to try to kill him?

Yes thats the true American attitude to the right to self determination. You can be anything you wish so long as its what we say. Henry Ford would be proud. Why was the USSR your enemy? Because they chose Communism over Capitalism? How did that honestly affect the United States? If the idea of communism spread to the States, a lot of American ultra-rich would of lost their fortunes...thats the true reason America deemed communism evil. The plebs like you and I are left to debate the validity of the conflict whilst the rich count their blessings (and their millions) and thank God communism didnt take away their fortunes.

i dont agree with what we did in many countries back then, and our supporting dictators and abuse of economic position has ruined the image of capitalism, we are at a point i know our nation was built to prevent and i'll admit but still, taking what one earned is also what our country was built to prevent, if communists gave just compensation and protected the individual i wouldnt be so against them as i am.

Then why trade with China? Are they not communists now? Come on, you dont actually believe everything you read do you? The United States doesnt even care about communism any more because it is dead in the water. The threat to the United States ultra-rich is over, they've won. They get to keep their billions whilst we work in perpetual servitude. I hope your happy with that outcome

Do you get a piece of the pie? I dont think so.

china is in a position that requires we trade or fall behind if we dont, plus they are a mix of communism/capitalist if you look how business is treated in china.
our government doesnt know crap about the people anymore, if they did i bet we would be on every dictator and genocide there is and wouldnt rip everyone off in trade, im unhappy and poor but still, i dont wish to blame every rich person on everything gone wrong.

Like I said, if the United States was honest in its objections to Cuba I would respect their honesty. But you've bought the whole string of crud argument thats been floated by your government for the last 40 years. You've gone from buying it to selling it and you dont even know it.

You should really re-examine for yourself the reasons why Cuba is still under U.S sanctions. Let me give you a hand, its not that they're communist (China MFN?), its not that he's a dictator (Uzbekistan and Pakistan are US Allies). So what does that leave?

deep seeded issues, entertwined history, high numbers of ex-cubans weilding influence, a feeling of betrayal and bitterness over almost causing ww3, its not our government, its a personal issue that goes back to the 19th century and built after the missile crisis and we just want a free friendly cuba(because its so close).

[edit on 18-10-2005 by namehere]

Originally posted by subz
.............................
I wasn't aware that the blockade of Cuba was still ongoing. This is appalling to hear and that the United States is again flouting the will of the World (13 successive times on this one issue alone) is infuriating.

I guess the will of the world doesn't mind the communist regime of castro udermining, or trying to undermine in every aspect, the US every time castro gets a chance ...

Originally posted by subz
The U.S embassy missed a bit off from its statement regarding the draft. When they said that the statement was "kind of support for the dictatorship in Cuba." They should of said "kind of support for the dictatorship in Cuba that we don't like." We all know that support for dictatorships IS acceptable to Washington as both American allies, Pakistan and Uzbekistan, are both well recognized dictatorships.

I guess you don't remember the last time that Uzbekistan was on the news and I posted quotes from a newspaper from that country stating that the government of Uzbekistan did not wish to heed the advice from the US but instead recognizes Russia as it's true ally...and of course you chose not to mention that Pakistan is not trying it's hardest to directly/indirectly, attack the US every time they get a chance....go figure....

Originally posted by subz
What gives the United States the right to blockade a sovereign nation like this? Absolutely none that's why, and they wonder why the World does not like the American government!

Disgusting.

Disgusting indeed when people keep trying to make comments on situations they obviously have no knowledge of.

Perhaps you should also realize that quite a few countries in the UN are keeping their heads literally under the dirt and "seem" unaware of the realities of the situation in many countries around the world, more so when it comes to countries like Cuba, and instead paint the real dictators of this world as "saviours and men of peace." i am not claiming everyone the UN nominates does not deserve it, but sometimes I have to wonder in what world do some countries that are part of the Un live in....as well as some people who even thou they have been told, by first hand accounts, the situation in certain countries (such as Cuba) yet decide to use any and every excuse to attack the US instead....

To give you an idea of some of the...idiotic things the UN has done, let's take a look at some of the nominees for the nobel prize that UN nations submited for 2001....

This year, those nominated included the Chinese Falun Gong movement, the European Court of Human Rights, U.S. peace broker Richard Holbrooke, Cuban President Fidel Castro and the game of football.

Excerpted from.
www.cnn.com...

UN countries nominating dictators, assassins and....football for the nobel peace prize....go figure....


[edit on 18-10-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by infinite

Stronger?

you've been listening to Bush way too much. Do a history lesson and you will see that America only took action cause Cuba didn't want to become a state...

I am sorry, would you mind enlightening us on this issue since you "seem" to know so much about it?....

Originally posted by infinite
Its an embargo because Cuba wouldn't join the US republic...so America tried to starve them into death..

Infinite, perhaps you should spend some time doing some research on this instead of making comments without any knowledge on the subject.

The Cuban government has more than enough resources to feed it's people yet castro decides to use most of Cuba's resources to sell the food and other products the country produces to other communist, or "revolutionaries" around the world...

Perhaps spending a few years in Cuba as a Cuban citizen would shake you into the reality of what is happening in Cuba.

Do send me a u2u if you want to trade places with some of my family members in Cuba......

[edit on 18-10-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by infinite

*yawns*

got to love Americans

And instead you got to love people who are naive about what is really happening in certain countries, such as Cuba, and believe these people even thou they are obviously ignorant on the situation of said countries?.....

Originally posted by Janus
Cuba isnt a threat to anyone anymore, no USSR to back them up, perhaps when Castro shuffles off his mortal coil there will be a peaceful change towards a more democratic government.
What harm can they do? They are a third world country with a very small Military. The US dosent have to fear the spread of communism anymore. Perhaps its time to let let its citizens buy Cuban stogies again.
Or perhaps the US is still angry that they couldnt crush Communism on their own doorstep?

No reasons and no threat?...

Let's see a couple of them.

1. castro uses every resource under his command to send/sell aid to countries which are enemies of the US.

2. Even thou the Cuban government produces enough resources to feed and maintain the Cuban population, it decides instead to use those resources to help other communists/revolutionaries, etc, who try their best to attack and undermine the US.

Perhaps the conclusion is that the US does not want the communist state of castro rampant and to have a green light to do more damage to the US. (There are several ways that you can attack a country and more so when that country is so close to other nations)

All of you all jumping on us for the economic embargo should realize one thing about Castro. He is a strong willed, proud man and since the U.S. would not and will not let him export his revolution to central & south america he has done absolutely anything & everything he can to be a pain in the posterior to the U.S. and he is still doing it as this is being written. You can call it tit-for-tat or a feud or whatever you want--the fact is though it is ongoing and as I said earlier the embargo is not going to be lifted until Fidel dies.

Do any of you remember Grenada? Well those were cuban troops that took over the island and that we threw off the island. Things like that have also happened in South America, the Carribbean and in Africa. He basically turned the Cuban Army into a mercenary force for the Russians. He is definitely one of the bad guys.

[edit on 18-10-2005 by Astronomer68]