Would you continue to pay your taxes/support your government once the coverup is revealed?

Springer: I suggest you invest in any energy company like, I dunno, like Reliant or El Paso? After NY, I see a lot of papers that say people are pissed off.

The "federal income tax" is an illegal (SHOW me a law that compels us to pay ONE CENT and I'll hire you as my tax attorney) left over from World War one...

Section. 8.
Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Originally posted by Springer
I assume you SLEPT through Econ classes IF you ever took them...

THAT was the MOST misleading, uninformed, UNSUBSTANTIATED load of HORSE HOCKEY I have EVER read!

PLEASE! Have MORE RESPECT for the readers! HELLO?! A "working class" person who KEEPS ALL of their paycheck IMMEDIATELY starts out WITH MORE MONEY than he does today. A HELL of ALOT more!

I assume you subscribe to the Karl Marx school of economics based on what you have stated here, is this correct?

P...
m...

Springer,
The main reason you make me mad is that you go around pretending that you are an expert on things while, at the same time, it;s quite apparent that you are very ignorant.

No, I'm not being abusive... You are ignorant. What you do is the equivalent of going around telling everyone that the world is flat... Whenever anyone tells you that, no, the world is a sphere (or near sphere, as it were), you launch into the same generic hillbillyisms that always involve feces from this or that animal as your selling point.

Sorry, dude, but it's clear that you never even attended an economics class. Guess what? If you substantially raise the price of goods, people will buy less of them, and only what they absolutely need. When people buy only what they absolutely need (flour, raw energy, etc.) work in other areas that further the standard of living stops.

Now, over time, this stagnates society... Simply because it creates a so-called 'lender's market' in the extreme.

In a 'sales tax only' scenario, the price of goods will go up, drastically, to account for national expenditures. The only way to keep prices down (BTW, 'price'=tax+shelf price) is to eliminate services provided by the government. Now, my guess is that you think you are some sort of survivalist warlord and that this would be ok with you. If the Fed were to nearly dissolve... well, the badasses such as yourself would make it, right? Well, sorry, even if you did 'make it', you'd be living in a society William Wallace would look down on. To cut to the chase, NO MAN is independent. Every piece of equipment you have is supported by untold workers who all require education and minimal living conditions.

Sorry, but your thinking only makes sense if you want to live in a stone age society. Perhaps that's what you want?

BTW, before you throw out the word 'marxist', you had better look it up. At least, however, Marxism is an idea that sprang up after the development of civilization, which is more than what can be said for your neolithic concepts of society.

[Edited on 15-9-2003 by onlyinmydreams]

NO way I'm paying if they lied to us and then set us up for a fall.

No way!

Even though I already know it is going on, I would give them a chance to explain themselves.

Frankly, I try to stay out of the system as much as possible now anyways.

My biggest problem with YOU is that You have done NOTHING in this world and I employ and PAY, REAL HUMAN BEINGS. I employ real people in a Mortgage Bank too, NOT a "survival camp" (isn't that how you put it? Survival camp Warlord?)

That and the fact that I BLOW more MONEY goofing off on a Monday afternoon that you make in a MONTH...

Beside all that your argument is PURELY contrived CRAP. Just because YOU think it so does NOT make it so Lad. Classic "block" of the young mind...

No, I am Not being abusive either, I am STATING FACT.

YOU claim the prices will go UP, mainly because you are IGNORANT, actually, COMPLETELY because you are IGNORANT...

The prices will FALL when you INCREASE PROFITS by virtue of EASING the tax burden on companies PRODUCING goods (there's that nasty PRODUCING word again!), if you had EVER PRODUCED anything YOU would know this... But alas you have not, so you DON'T...

Too bad really, when you GAIN enough REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE and the CHECKING ACCOUNT to hang with me maybe I'll be willing to teach you a thing or two...

As far as Econ classes... Well let's just say that TEACHING them may not be the same as ATTENDING them but what the heck huh?

GO DO something Lad... Make some MONEY before you attempt to lecture your SUPERIORS LADDY!

PEACE...
m...

[Edited on 9-15-2003 by Springer]

[Edited on 9-15-2003 by Springer]

Bump Bump Bump Bumpety Bump Bumpety bump!

I put forced at gun point, because if you don't pay them, the IRS will come for you!

We'd probably have some new kind of Alien Zoning tax or something I am sure.

Springer,

Strike 'ignorant' from my comments above and insert 'crass'.

You and I both know that your 'plan' is absurd. Stop trying to push your 'ideas' by the force of pure noise.

Your other comments, on their own, expose the exact flaw in your thinking. Right away, we see the language of an ignorant man... or a low man. Rather than try to make a remotely adult comment, you instead resort to dumb comments to the effect that you make a lot of money and that you are older than me. Well... guess what, a smart man never makes a comment without knowing, ahead, if he is being accurate. Sure, I'm younger than you... But you have NO IDEA who I am, where I have been, or what I have done in my life. You assume a great deal.

The thing that's really funny about this is that your life, the one which you seem to think is so great, seems sad to me. A banker who has nothing to do ALL DAY but post on a website every five minutes and act like he's tough because he says he owns a motorcycle... A man who is SO confident in his life that he has to make sure that people half his age know this...

Really, dude, you're a joke. Get a life... You know, one of those things where you claim you've gotten your 'experience' from?

Your attitude also makes me laugh. The things you're proud of are shallow and meaningless. Maybe you tuned into Rush Limbaugh one too many times and mindlessly shouted "ditto" as he read some asshole life-afirming bull# to you.

To be frank, you're an old man who has to bug people half his age so as to have something to do. You're like a fat, rich old man who rides up on a motorcycle to a bunch of teenage girls so as to impress them.

And, so as your main comments go... I'm positive that, not only do i have a better education than you, I have a better future, more friends... and I've actually DONE MORE GOOD in my life than you have.

I'm sure I'll get a 'warning' for this. Oh well. It's time someone started telling the bullies, thugs, and greedy slobs that they're not that smart after all... I also feel that everything I've said is a fair reply to Springer's comments, so, if they are stricken... His should be too.

And, Springer, though I don't agree with your greasy philosophy that everything is about money... I'm positive that I will make far more of it in my life than you ever will. I'm sure, however, that you will die of heart disease, ulcer, or auto-erotic asphyxiation before I can achieve this, though, so please just dream about it....

PSSHAAH

Both parties have encountered an official warning here.

Might I suggest you take your squabble to the debate forum and not sully a well-intended thread.

Let's get this thread back to the original question.

Oity is the only word that comes to mind after reading your pitiful, self depricating post...

I am TRULY willing to help you. Obviously you have a GREAT deal of undealt with anger and jealousy. I am sorry for you.

The best I can tell is that you simply can't handle the fact that someome who has a DIFFERENT persepctive of ANY ISSUE than you have can be allowed to live.

Much less be allowed to live a GREAT LIFE. Which, by the way I do. Yes I am wealthy and yes I EARNED IT.

Your blathering about me posting every 5 minutes calls your ability to COUNT into question, the record speaks for itself, lad, go look... All you have to do is search by Springer and count/time the posts...

The reality is I am a REAL PERSON who has MADE IT. You are STARTING OUT BUT refuse to allow ANYONE to offer an opinion without you vehemently and RUDELY opposing it. I DON'T let people act that way in the "Real World" in front of me without saying something to them, at the LEAST, and I'll NOT allow it to go unanswered here. Well when consideration is given to the fact that you are STARTING OUT in life, which by the way WE ALL DID, it seems to me that you should be a little more RESPECTFUL of others opinions. At the VERY LEAST you should find a way to "debate" them without being an uppity and RUDE. Capiche?

You have your "issues", that has become PERFECTLY CLEAR to me from the post you made above this one. I PRAY you SEEK HELP.

Life should be FUN and SUCCESSFUL NOT full of angst and lonliness.

P...
m...

jesus wept.

in other news:

I would think that if they eliminated a whole chunk of taxes and just used sales tax, that the government and the like would have to derive substance from that. So instead of a 9% sales tax that we see, we'd see a 38% sales tax. Am I right?

discliamer- I have not taken economics, social science or law.

Probably so.. But THAT would be BETTER than what we have now, as you would NLY pay taxes when you spent money, allowing yourself to grow wealth as you see fit.

You would get your WHOLE paycheck and have MORE money to pay the sales tax with, unless you spend every dime you make buying NEW ITEMS (monthly payments would not count as you already paid the tax at the time of purchase) you could accumulate wealth, invest your money and keep the WASTEGUL government out of your income.

PEACE...
m...

Good point. It would return monetary control back to the owner. I would save up like a good little chimpmunk

Originally posted by William
Both parties have encountered an official warning here.

Might I suggest you take your squabble to the debate forum and not sully a well-intended thread.

Let's get this thread back to the original question.

Yes, William, this is indeed a very important question... But, in a way, I feel that this little war answers it, in a way. No, I'm not saying that it has developed the right way... But... Let's just take the original question in hand, here... At such grave historic moments, doesn't everything hit the fan? I'm sure that, at such a moment as mentioned in the question, you'll have all sorts of people angling to get their ideas across -- no matter how extreme or destructive they are. They'll result to empty insults, crudeness, and displays of conjured bravado.

In short, on day 1 after such a major secret is revealed, we'll have people battling each other... Many of them with plans that will throw out the 'baby with the bath water'. Those who will continue to support the 'working' elements of the old system will be hard pressed to defend things against a tidal wave of animosity and accusations. What we WILL have is a GRAB by some to set up a new economic order.

For Springer,
The record also shows that I have ALWAYS been in the responsive situation. ALWAYS have I been defending someone else. For someone whose main argument is that you are older than me... well... To those who take the time to look at the record... It doesn't show.

One other thing, I am neither greedy or a slob. I am ALTRUISTIC (to a fault sometimes) and MOST DEFINATELY a NEAT FREAK.

A thug? Maybe. A bully? NEVER.

I was raised with something called MANNERS, look into it, it's a great attribute.

P...
m...

I have never paid taxes, i am serious the firts one i recieved was only HKD $45 cos it was the first 1 my father paid it for me.

I would think to cast off the payment for society after something as big as the "secret" getting out would be a foolhearty thing to do.

Yes, I would want to tell them to "stick it" after discovering they lied to me BUT it could lead to MORE problems than we had before we found out the truth.

If there was ever a time that $$ was needed I would think it would be that precise moment to offset the additional costs of counselling and potentially global defense (if the "aliens" were nasties). I would HOPE that the world would unite and one and all would see that our survival is directly tied to everyone else's survival in a worst case scenario...

I would think that it might be a moot point depending on whether or not society as whole was crumbling. Obviously if mankind went into histerics over the whole thing there wouldn't be anyone to pay. That I think is a less likely situation today than it was even, say 20 years ago...

I think the advent of the WWW has opened MANY people's eyes to the "UFO Situation" that otherwise would not have had any introduction to it...

To answer your question, I would have to say yes I would continue to pay if it were a Sales Tax system, think of the revenue that could be generated with T shirts alone!

PEACE...
m...

Originally posted by Springer
One other thing, I am neither greedy or a slob. I am ALTRUISTIC (to a fault sometimes) and MOST DEFINATELY a NEAT FREAK.

A thug? Maybe. A bully? NEVER.

I was raised with something called MANNERS, look into it, it's a great attribute.

P...
m...

If you had manners you would stop giving me these strange lectures. You also wouldn't attack people all the time.

Maybe you're not a slob, though. I take that back. Such a statement uses the same logic you use. I am sincerely sorry for that, then.



So as to make this 'on topic', I can see, on 'A Day +1', some guy, backed by an invisible army of supporters, giving a lecture to some outnumbered bureaucrat at the Department of Education or Labor or something like that a lecture on 'manners' and 'toughness' and 'life experience' while he pushes a formula that will help, well, his invisible backers.

The bottom line: Some people like folksy displays of bravado, some laugh at them. Who will win on 'A day +2' is anyone's guess.

Could I just put some math in here?

Let's take 38% on 100k

You've got 62k left. This is your spending power. (no savings accounted for)

Now, let's take 100k and apply a straight sales tax of, say, 18%.

You've got a 100k, period. Not 62k. Now, you go out and you spend like the capitalistic-pig you've been brought up to be. Your spending power is now 100k. After the sales tax - 82k (actually 84,745, but whose counting - obviously not a couple of people on this board). This is still more than 62k unless some one has reversed some math concepts on me.

But get a load of this...once you've bought something, especially long-term purchases...you get to keep the 18% that applied to that purchase!!!! What a farkin' concept. And THEN, since you're not getting rolled on an annual basis for nothing, you go out and spend on something new! I can see how that would hurt the economy!!!

Long story short. Claiming an increased sales tax that falls anywhere under the current income tax will hurt the economy, hasn't ran the numbers (to say the least).

NOW, with that said, I don't want a national sales tax unless it only applies to "when I'm purchasing". (i.e. go ahead and collect on my house payment principal, but when I own the land and the house...you're SOL). I would far rather have a flat income tax.

BUT, irrespective of what fix was implemented, I just want the damned money back that is being stolen from me every month in the name of "Social Security" and "Medicare"...I'd be Bill Gates right now if the government hadn't been taxing me without representation on these hits!!!

This is NOT meant to be combative..

I don't think that an 18% sales tax rate will cover what the Federal government (or state, if we want to take it all the way) receives in income taxes... Without cutting out Federal (and state, see above) programs.

Please, if you are going to talk about the benefits of a sales tax only system, and adhere to such low tax rates, please explain what you will be cutting out of government?

But, even if the board were to think that all such cuts would be great and wonderful...

Say that you make $45,000 a year. You have a family of 4. You have $10,000 in savings and $200,000 in your retirement plan. Your checkbook barely clears each month. You are now paying 18% sales tax on necessary goods (though, this would probably be more like 60+%)... Are you going to buy the same things you buy now, or will you only buy essentials. That is, will you spend LESS or MORE money on products that require well-paying, educated, and continously researched systems to produce them? So, will you be advancing the economy.... or simplifying it?

Also, notice how the guy who inherited $100,000,000 bucks from uncle Roy doesn't really care what the sales tax on necessary goods is. He's more than willing to offer you a loan to pay for all your expences!

...But, this IS fiction, because an 18% rate will only work if you don't expect the government to do 90% of what it does now. So... say farewell to those nice highways and universities. Enjoy debt.. or paying for some mercenary to protect you...

[Edited on 16-9-2003 by onlyinmydreams]