Stumpy V Ktprktpr:The Bible.Results.

Well,Stumpy and Ktpr have completed their debate to find who will be our official challenger for the ATS debating title and meet our Champion OIMD.

I will be sending out the voting slips to our 7 judges today and hopefully the results will be posted here this weekend.

In the meantime I've included a poll so that you too can have a go at judging and see if you agree with our judges.

The debate can be found here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The Grand Final will start next weekend so the winner of the Stumpy/Ktpr bout will have a well deserved weeks rest.
The topic tilte for the final will be posted here and in the Debate Forum on Monday.So plenty of time to think about the topic for all concerned.

I'll be interested to see how members vote and reading your comments.

Thanks JB1.

If anyone can deconstruct my arguments and point out the flaws (there are several), feel free to do so, via u2u. As I've harped on in the past, I debate to improve various abilities. I will debate for food when you can buy food from the ATS store.

5 judges have come in so far.

I can say that it couldn't be closer and could still go either way.

But tell us what you think.I am interested in seeing if the judges and the board agree.So please read the debate and vote in the poll and let the debators know what you thought.

Thanks JB1

OK.The Judges votes are in.
There can be only one winner and on this occasion Ktprktpr is declared the winner and becomes our official challenger and will go forward and face our reigning ATS Debate Champion,OnlyInMyDreams.
The title fight will start next Sunday.
Details will appear in the Debate Forum later today.

Congratulations to both Stumpy and Ktpr for an excellent debate.


Judge A = Ktprktpr
Judge B = Stumpy
Judge C = Stumpy
Judge D = Ktprktpr
Judge E =.Ktprktpr
Judge F = Ktprktpr
Judge G = Ktprktpr

Comments from the judges:

"The debate was won by ktprktpr because the affirmatives argument, even taking the existence of God as fact, still relied on the faith of intent for it�s point to be successful � which is completely indefinable. That there are so many versions and packages of bible text further supports the contrary�s argument."

"Great Debate. Both participants made an excellent job presenting their arguments. Even though I didnt agree with either I think ktprktpr presented the better argument. Good job. Both of you."

"A patchy start but some good marshalling of arguments thereafter: much is familiar; but I think stumpy did well to use his sports-car analogy and krptkr drifted a little.
Top marks to both on rhetoric; but on persuasive force (and with the unpopular choice) Stumpy takes the day."

"I prefered ktprktpr's style but I felt that his argument was not as distinct from Stumpy's position as it should of been.Stumpy's argument was consistant whereas ktprktpr's argument compromised.If I were to judge on the compromised argument then i'd have given it to ktprktpr but i'm judging it on the title argument and so I vote for Stumpy."

"Ktprktpr gets my vote. It was hard to judge. At times they seemed to be saying the same things. I think Ktprktpr did a little bit better job."

"That has been the most difficult debate thus far-for me..
Everyone wants to believe that the "bible" was infact dictated by God for/through mankind.
Stumpy did an excellent job of fighting to save his side of the debate as Ktpr consistantly debunked nearly every word of Stumpys analogies and debate..It seemed that Stumpy would drown after I would read the next side of ktprs debate and then he would save himself again in his next debate. This had to have been very difficult for them both to argue and what an extremely touchy subject to have to debate either way!
My vote, after long consideration is for Ktpr, because he/she obviously did their homework and repeatedly found many (not just one) reasons to refute nearly every word that stumpy defended. I certainly want to believe the bible was written from God through man and that's the bottom line-but Ktpr gave too many legitament arguments 'against' it, that even I am finding difficult to argue.
Stumpy-did a really good job of trying to save his side each time Ktpr 'swallowed and spit' nearly everything he presented..Lord knows I would have caved after Ktprs second debate..so he certainly get's my respect as an awesome debater no matter what the verdict."

"Difficult one, I thought.
Stumpy argued many erroneous points, but, as the argument is subjective by virtue of the topic, I set that aside and went strictly on writing style, and, Ktprktpr wins. His style was much more persuasive and thought out."

"I prefered ktprktpr's style but I felt that his argument was not as distinct from Stumpy's position as it should of been.Stumpy's argument was consistant whereas ktprktpr's argument compromised.If I were to judge on the compromised argument then i'd have given it to ktprktpr but i'm judging it on the title argument and so I vote for Stumpy."

This a very good point. I'm not going to say I cheated, but I either pulled a fast one or changed gears. I never mentioned faith until the last debate, because I had never thought about it! That was one flaw. But the rules don't prohibit this and they shouldn't because this is more of a "thinking on your feet" style debate.

My agrument was comprimised because I realized, through stumpy, that God could be responsible for everything, even if you didn't ask. So I had to figure out a way to put that fact in suspect. I hadn't dealt with it and was arguing from a probabilistic stance which is retarted when takling about God. Faith is the answer and works from any viewpoint. (Even if it was written by God and you have no faith, the Bible would be by Man).

What this means for everyone is to think about ALL your points before you go in, so your arugment is consistent overall. It doesn't always matter but each post gets you closer and closer to the end.

I also wish that we could vote on topics or at least ats could. The new topic isn't bad but in future, perhaps, such a thing could be considered. That way ats will have more of an "investment" in the debate.

alrighty then. thanks for all that were involved.

edit- whoever calls themself a judge and wrote that last paragraph about writing style, in all honesty, should be ashamed. Who judges a debate on writing style? Sheeple.

[Edited on 15-9-2003 by ktprktpr]