Bush says torture is ok

Bush White House declares torture vital to US security policy

In an extraordinary declaration of the brutality of American foreign policy, the Bush administration denounced a Senate vote to bar the use of torture against prisoners held by the US military. Responding to the passage of an amendment to a Pentagon spending bill—approved by an overwhelming 90-9 vote Wednesday, the White House said the proposal would “restrict the president’s authority to protect Americans effectively from terrorist attack and bring terrorists to justice.”

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Wow the U.S. sure is making it's self known as the role modle for other countries to follow. What a stand up buch these ppl are. Next they will have ppl lining up for nueturing and the showers with no water.

I don't know about any one else but this makes me sick to know it's seen as ok to torture ppl.

When you play a game with a friend or a significant other, are you allowed to play the way you want while your friend must follow the rules of the game? Who do you think will win this game?

but when one person uses torture and condems the other

the people who wrap themselves in the american flag and then condone torture are arrogant buffoons, and the more they affect national policy the worse off we all are. we cannot "UN-torture" a person after it has finally been conceded that they did not possess the information we sought to coerce out of them, and many victims of torture know nothing of real value to interrogators. so what do we do about this?? we cannot write off the mental and physical injuries to these innocent people as the frivolous concerns of overly sensitive people [or worse, the dissent of traitors].

is being a hair's breadth away from barbarism a good thing? and what sub-species of human goes to work every day to commence torturing other human beings? not any kind i want to know......

And the House Republicans may decide to remove the anti-torture section of the bill before they will even agree to vote on it!! These people are warped, and I will not apologize for ever thinking that torture is wrong and thinking those who condone it are sick!!

Originally posted by I See You
When you play a game with a friend or a significant other, are you allowed to play the way you want while your friend must follow the rules of the game? Who do you think will win this game?

1. My integrity is not dependent upon the actions of others.
So if they cheat, I do not cheat.
If they act like an animal, I do not act like an animal.
Their behavior does not justify me lowering myself to behave in a way that is contrary to my values. I will not give that up for any reason. Even if it means losing the game.

2. THIS IS NOT A GAME.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by I See You
When you play a game with a friend or a significant other, are you allowed to play the way you want while your friend must follow the rules of the game? Who do you think will win this game?

1. My integrity is not dependent upon the actions of others.
So if they cheat, I do not cheat.
If they act like an animal, I do not act like an animal.
Their behavior does not justify me lowering myself to behave in a way that is contrary to my values. I will not give that up for any reason. Even if it means losing the game.

2. THIS IS NOT A GAME.

You're absolutely correct, it is not a game. I/we agree with your above post of jimmy jumps off a bridge so I will jump off a bridge. Problem is like you said that this is not a game, it is war(which in many ways is a game but in life). War sucks, we all know this already. Things are done in war that help one side win. Torture is a useful tool in wars even though we don't condone it but the fact remains that it is used and has been used throughout time. The military must use all tools necessary just as the opposing side also does. Is it something that I/we accept? Of course not, not altogether but can you get both sides to stop doing these things in a war?

Originally posted by I See You

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by I See You
When you play a game with a friend or a significant other, are you allowed to play the way you want while your friend must follow the rules of the game? Who do you think will win this game?

1. My integrity is not dependent upon the actions of others.
So if they cheat, I do not cheat.
If they act like an animal, I do not act like an animal.
Their behavior does not justify me lowering myself to behave in a way that is contrary to my values. I will not give that up for any reason. Even if it means losing the game.

2. THIS IS NOT A GAME.

You're absolutely correct, it is not a game. I/we agree with your above post of jimmy jumps off a bridge so I will jump off a bridge. Problem is like you said that this is not a game, it is war(which in many ways is a game but in life). War sucks, we all know this already. Things are done in war that help one side win. Torture is a useful tool in wars even though we don't condone it but the fact remains that it is used and has been used throughout time. The military must use all tools necessary just as the opposing side also does. Is it something that I/we accept? Of course not, not altogether but can you get both sides to stop doing these things in a war?

But you can not fight a conventional war against their supposed enemy.
They seek a ppl that hide and run from country to country (or so they say).
If this were a REAL war you would have a defined enemy in one spot or several spots. Not a several individuals roaming a land or lands. In the eyes of our government now those who hold to conspiracy theories are the enemy also Bush stated this himself. Did he not say that listening to or holding to a conspiracy theory is helping the enemy and id he also not say that if you are not with us you are against us?

If you read the full P.A. you will see that Americans can and will be labled terrorists. Would you like to see a family member or neighbor tortured because they do not see things the way our great leaders do?

They spoke that the terrorists were all kinds of evil with the beheadings (some of which seem to have possiblities of being done on already dead ppl) yet now they say it's OK to torture ppl!?! This is nothing more than government double standards at it's worst.

We might not be able to change this one enemies idea of how to do things by not tortureing our captives but what about the next enemy?

This makes me ask even more than before who the real enemy is. I fear I'm starting to think the biggest enemy is my own government. This is not what humans should do even if the other guy is doing it does not make it right. As for it not being a game those in Washington seem to thing it's some kind of fun game where they get more points for doing the most wrong.

Raist

I wonder how long it would take for GWB to confess to all his misdeeds when he gets tortured??

Would a normal sain president give his blessing to such a proposal, i think not.
Think only indicates what person he is, he doesnt care at al about human suffering, not about americans and not about people in general.
This is not Bush bashing this is stating a fact.

GwB if you are reading this: Your negative karma is building up my friend, your afterlife is gonna be a bitch i promise you.

Their behavior does not justify me lowering myself to behave in a way that is contrary to my values. I will not give that up for any reason. Even if it means losing the game.

I don’t like to think that my life hangs in the outcome of the “game’s” ending. We lose I die, they loose I live. You’re absolutely correct it is not a game!

I believe there are men and women serving who would risk getting court marshaled for using torture, if it means saving the lives of American citizens.

GwB if you are reading this: Your negative karma is building up my friend, your afterlife is gonna be a bitch i promise you.

If there is such a thing as an afterlife, In my view you die, rot, and become food for the plants, and that's pretty much your exiting afterlife.

[edit on 8-10-2005 by WestPoint23]

Sensor -- I agree with you. Only barbarians torture their enemies.

West Point -- Your soul is immortal. You are going to live forever -- where is up to you. You don't get to choose to cease to exist. It's appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
We lose I die, they loose I live.

I believe there are men and women serving who would risk getting court marshaled for using torture, if it means saving the lives of American citizens.

Yeah, IF . But how would you know? What if they don't have the information? What if our soldiers get carried away? If you (and GWB) think that torture is justified by saving people's lives, you're fooling yourselves. To say that torture saves lives is the most convoluted logic around.

So, IF they are prisoners, IF they are guilty of something and IF they have information that can save lives, then maybe you can get it out of them with torture. But maybe not. And maybe it's just a guy, guilty of nothing and with no information to give. Then the torturer is no better than an animal. Unfortunately, you can't know that ahead of time.

Unfortunately, not only the guilty guys with information get tortured. These men are getting tortured for 'stress-relief' out of boredom. To stand up for this action and this president is just incomprehensible. Your loyalties are blinding your humanity.

All I have to say is I hate the source article.

Sorry for the one liner, but its all I have to note.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Their behavior does not justify me lowering myself to behave in a way that is contrary to my values. I will not give that up for any reason. Even if it means losing the game.

I don’t like to think that my life hangs in the outcome of the “game’s” ending. We lose I die, they loose I live. You’re absolutely correct it is not a game!

I believe there are men and women serving who would risk getting court marshaled for using torture, if it means saving the lives of American citizens.

GwB if you are reading this: Your negative karma is building up my friend, your afterlife is gonna be a bitch i promise you.

If there is such a thing as an afterlife, In my view you die, rot, and become food for the plants, and that's pretty much your exiting afterlife.

[edit on 8-10-2005 by WestPoint23]

This is your ignorance my friend, you will find out soon enough.

Okay, where are the Bushbots on this one?

Torture is NEVER okay. I don't see how we can call ourselves a civilized nation if we actually condone this.

I can see how people would condone it. In these people's eyes, these guys are responsible for bringing down the WTC and causing all sorts of trouble--so their thinking is along the lines of "you know what they say about paybacks."

My thing is, it doesn't matter who knocked down what or when, torture is NEVER justified.

The idea of torture sucks, I'll give you that. But if Johnny Arab has the info as to what elementary school has a dirty bomb in the basement and wants to play the locked lips game? I'll gladly use a wire hanger on him until he squeals. (If sodium pentathol didn't do the trick)

I'm sure they're not talking about just throwing random beatings out there (which probably isn't such a bad idea, keep the Sandies guessing) but only torturing in rare cases.

Amythyst -- Especially torture is not justified when it's ridiculing the purity of our enemies by forcing them to listen to and watch videos of Christine Aguilara and others, laugh at them and ridicule them because they sincerely want to be sexually pure. We were a pretty barbaric bunch of people here at home, but now Bush has broadcast this abroad that we are this way.

GWB has got to be the WORST president this country has ever had, and after Clinton I thought that wasn't possible.

LOL I'm an American who thinks watching/listening to Christina Aguilera or Britney Spears is torture!

To Dero--Is this just Arabs you're talking about? Look, I'm no fan of Islam myself, but Arabs have rights too.

At any rate, there's no guarantee that you'd even get the right answer from someone by torturing them.

Using torture as a method to extract information from a so called enemy is not a reliable method. Everyone has a breaking point and many would say just about anything to quit feeling pain.

Torture is simply sadistic, cruel, and unusual, very much like the BTK killer,a(psycho/sociopath). Torturers torture for simple pleasure and amusement. Nothing more, nothing less.

To extract information=absurd

Originally posted by magnito_student
Torture is simply sadistic, cruel, and unusual, very much like the BTK killer,a(psycho/sociopath). Torturers torture for simple pleasure and amusement. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you just touched on an instance of doublethink there. I know people scream "electric chair" for people like BTK. (I'm pro-death penalty too but that's beside the point.)

But these same people, I'm sure there are at least a few who think torture in Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, or wherever is just peachy.