Vaccines responsible for more deaths than the diseases they are supposed to fight off.

you subsequently lambast them for failing to treat the same. Which is it? Do you want the prevention and treatment of disease, or do you wish for Darwinian thinning of the “herd” by removing the very notion of disease prevention and treatment?

The thread is about vaccines mirthful you. Syphyllis has nothing to do with vaccines. It's a disease that can be treated and cured. They chose to let those men die instead of CURING them. There was no vaccine required in the mix. So what are you talking about?

There is a HUGE difference between a vaccine and a cure. Were you aware of that? Penicillin...that's an antibiotic not a vaccine. Do you understand the difference between the two?

Mirthful Monkeys....not much of anything to say so they just ramble and make stuff up and try to continue arguments for arguments sake......

I have grown weary of you *yawn*

A Conveniently Truncated (By: XanaX) Insight From Mirthful Me
you subsequently lambast them for failing to treat the same. Which is it? Do you want the prevention and treatment of disease, or do you wish for Darwinian thinning of the “herd” by removing the very notion of disease prevention and treatment?

Since it’s a new page in this thread, let’s give the “looky loos” the benefit of the entire passage:

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Interesting that you cite the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, while you rail against the Public Health Service (PHS) and the Center For Disease Control (CDC) for trying to vaccinate and treat the population at large, you subsequently lambast them for failing to treat the same. Which is it? Do you want the prevention and treatment of disease, or do you wish for Darwinian thinning of the “herd” by removing the very notion of disease prevention and treatment? You embrace a philosophy that will ensure the depopulation process you claim to be currently perpetrated by these groups. You can’t have it both ways… But this isn’t about vaccinations, AIDS, or any other disease… This is about your hate and contempt for the medical community isn’t it?

Full context… What a concept.

Once again (like the AIDS in Africa, and the Nazi comparison), you introduced The Tuskegee Study into the discussion, not me… I merely pointed out the disingenuous (dare I say hypocritical ) nature of your criticism of the PHS and CDC is; claiming that they are willfully and maliciously infecting people with AIDS and other communicable diseases, and then railing against them for not treating a group of men in a study (compounded by the fact that you have already stated that you would refuse treatment from such a source), remember this exchange?

Clever Monkey Question
I assume you would decline a Bird Flu vaccine if it was offered in the face of a full outbreak?

Originally posted by XanaX
You are correct. That's because taking the vaccine is exactly what the CDC would want me to do....and I just don't trust that organization. They are the biggest player in the depopulation program on the planet!

Depopulation? Could you please demonstrate this depopulation you keep alluding to? If the CDC is supposed to be depopulating the world they need to be fired! World population is steadily increasing, the only possible answer is they must be incompetent!?! Or is it that their cause is noble, and just doesn't fit your agenda?

So the action taken (on behalf of The Tuskegee Study), which is precisely what you advocate, is unacceptable as you see fit... Once again, which is it? Do you avail yourself to the services of the PHS and CDC, or do you eschew them? Do you abstain from prevention and treatment yourself only, or do you advocate this course of action for all?

Darwin indeed.

Originally posted by XanaX
The thread is about vaccines mirthful you. Syphyllis has nothing to do with vaccines. It's a disease that can be treated and cured. They chose to let those men die instead of CURING them. There was no vaccine required in the mix. So what are you talking about?

There is a HUGE difference between a vaccine and a cure. Were you aware of that? Penicillin...that's an antibiotic not a vaccine. Do you understand the difference between the two?

If Syphilis (please note correct spelling) has nothing to do with vaccines, why did you introduce it into the discussion? The crux of the matter is that you subscribe to a paranoid aversion to vaccines specifically, and medicine in general; that’s your right, and I would never take that away from you, but when you publicly demonize sound medical protocol, you have to expect to be rebutted… Hence the concept of a discussion board.

I am well aware difference between vaccines and infectious disease treatment. I wonder if you understand the inseparable connection between the two in a comprehensive public healthcare plan?

Mirthful Monkeys....not much of anything to say so they just ramble and make stuff up and try to continue arguments for arguments sake......

Please, in no uncertain terms, demonstrate where I have made ”any stuff up.”

I have grown weary of you *yawn*

Once again… We’re even. :shk:

Rambling Monkeys, not just for argument's sake anymore...

Your thread title, Xanax, claims that "vaccines responsible for more deaths than the diseases they are supposed to fight off".

Let's just take one example - Measles.

Between 2000-2003, measles cases have been reduced by 91% in 19 African nations. Why? Because of immunization campaigns and improvements in routine immunization services. This has prevented an estimated 90,000 child deaths in 2003 alone. If your claim was accurate, Xanax, we would expect to see an equally high number of deaths attributed to the vaccine, correct? And yet we do not see this. Why?

It's not as if the information isn't available - because it is.

In fact, you are free to download and view actual adverse event files relating to vaccines right here .

As a consumer, we're also able to go here if we think we have a legitimate claim which would involve the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

These two resources are not hidden from view - they're very much available to anyone who cares to look for the information. Of course, that doesn't really support your conspiracy theory - nothing I can do about that, but then whale.to and mercola.com seem more concerned with misrepresenting facts, obfuscating the truth, and selling books (mercola in particular), than actually getting things right.

Knowing that inevitably, there will be a small number of deaths relating to vaccine programs, I suppose the challenge is set: prove - using reliable sources - that vaccines cause more deaths than the diseases they're meant to prevent.

Prove it.

What about the mercury that's found in vaccines that can cause autism?

What about vaccines causing SIDS? During my son's first year I worried about SIDS, and had I known then what I know now, I would NEVER have gotten him vaccinated and saved myself a LOT of needless worry!

I read in a library book that one time Japan decided no vaccinations until the age of 2. SIDS virtually disappeared. Then they reversed it and said vaccinate babies, and SIDS came right back.

Who's to say that people are not deliberately injected with something to make them sick to create an outbreak? "Aha! Hardly anyone vaccinated in this area and look!" they say. It sure wouldn't surprise me (it's hard to surprise me anymore).

Originally posted by Amethyst
What about the mercury that's found in vaccines that can cause autism?

What about vaccines causing SIDS? During my son's first year I worried about SIDS, and had I known then what I know now, I would NEVER have gotten him vaccinated and saved myself a LOT of needless worry!

The thing is, as pointed out earlier, (an example here), there's just nothing to prove a link.

Another source

And more here

Regarding the Japan/SIDS claims - you might want to read this, as the matter is not quite as straightforward as Dr Schiebner is making it out to be..

Linky

"BMJ, the British Medical Journal, published a study on 4/7/01 titled "The UK accelerated immunisation programme and sudden unexpected death in infancy: case-control study". This study looked at 303 SIDS cases in the UK and compared them with 1515 controls, matched by age and locality. The researchers interviewed parents and examined immunization records..."

Our data suggest that even when potentially confounding factors, such as family mobility, are taken into account, immunisation does not contribute to the risk of the sudden infant death syndrome and may protect against it."

(emphasis mine)

There are far more studies showing that there's no link between vaccines and SIDS, than there are studies showing any real connection.

As I've shown earlier, the data for vaccine adverse events are available to the public, and I highly recommend downloading and viewing the databases themselves.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

The thing is, as pointed out earlier, (an example here), there's just nothing to prove a link.

ERm. The links are there - what's lacking are direct, single causal relationships, which is a requirement based on legal fiction, not medical and scientific reality.

The fact is - most modern ailments are multi-factorial. Single cause-and-effect relationships are few and far between - but that is what liability law requires - so we dance.

My advice - recognize the lawyers, ignore them, learn to read between the lines - and PROTECT YOURSELF and your family - because no one else is going to, not the FDA, and certainly not the drug or insurance industries.


.

Once again (like the AIDS in Africa, and the Nazi comparison), you introduced The Tuskegee Study into the discussion, not me… I merely pointed out the disingenuous (dare I say hypocritical ) nature of your criticism of the PHS and CDC is; claiming that they are willfully and maliciously infecting people with AIDS and other communicable diseases, and then railing against them for not treating a group of men in a study (compounded by the fact that you have already stated that you would refuse treatment from such a source), remember this exchange?

This is nothing but gibberish and doubletalk....How do the two contradict themselves? In one instance I am claiming our government has purposely infected people in Africa and the US with AIDS. In another I am disgusted by ANY study that uses humans as guinea pigs. They both relate to each other...they don't contradict each other. Both show sitautions where the CDC and our government are and have been knowingly involved in killing innocent people.

Like I said before, you just like to argue for the sake of arguing, even if you have nothing to say....other than in this case gibberish, doubletalk and nonsense.

Oh and thank you so much for correcting my spelling on Syphillis.....why that was important to you can only be to satisfy your overblown ego. "I'm going to show him!! I'm going to point out he mispelled a word. I AM THE MAN!!" Your arrogance is pathetic at best! Talk about grasping at straws! You have no argument so you try to assert your wits into this argument by pointing out a spelling error! *rotflmfao*

Lap Monkeys...not just for spanking anymore!

[edit on 11-10-2005 by XanaX]

Originally posted by XanaX

This is nothing but gibberish and doubletalk....How do the two contradict themselves? In one instance I am claiming our government has purposely infected people in Africa and the US with AIDS. In another I am disgusted by ANY study that uses humans as guinea pigs.

A) You're yet to actually even come close to proving your claim about the US deliberately infecting anyone with AIDS.

B) Really? You're disgusted at all clinical trials then? Are you disgusted at organ transplantation? Insulin? Saving the lives of millions?

That does strike me as odd. Surely even a die-hard anti-drug company poster can see that many drugs have indeed saved many, many lives over the years....and that none of those drugs would be with us if it hadn't been for human test subjects.

Or would you rather we go back to the days before penicillin, before insulin was available, before anything vaguely medicinal was available?

That's what a clinical trial does. It tests the drug in a human population - who are, by default - "guinea pigs" of sorts.

Originally posted by XanaX
This is nothing but gibberish and doubletalk....

Don’t be so hard on yourself.

How do the two contradict themselves? In one instance I am claiming our government has purposely infected people in Africa and the US with AIDS. In another I am disgusted by ANY study that uses humans as guinea pigs. They both relate to each other...they don't contradict each other. Both show sitautions where the CDC and our government are and have been knowingly involved in killing innocent people.

As I previously pointed out, you advocate inaction (by the CDC), and vilify the same body (the CDC) when they perpetrate that which you claim you would choose for yourself. Prevention and treatment go hand in hand, to eschew prevention, ensures the need for treatment. Contradiction indeed.

Humans as “guinea pigs?” “Any study?” As I have previously stated, you have right to your opinion regarding your personal healthcare. When that opinion becomes an agenda, rife with speculation and innuendo, advocating a course that would halt medical advancement in prevention and treatment of disease, I will tke exception. It is your philosophy and mind set that would lead to “depopulation,” not the current policies and actions of the PHS, and CDC.

Like I said before, you just like to argue for the sake of arguing, even if you have nothing to say....other than in this case gibberish, doubletalk and nonsense.

This case indeed.

Oh and thank you so much for correcting my spelling on Syphillis.....why that was important to you can only be to satisfy your overblown ego. "I'm going to show him!! I'm going to point out he mispelled a word. I AM THE MAN!!" Your arrogance is pathetic at best! Talk about grasping at straws! You have no argument so you try to assert your wits into this argument by pointing out a spelling error! *rotflmfao*

I guess that it would be inopportune to point out that you “mispelled,” misspelled, or just ironic? Your continued preference of ad hominem attacks, vice refuting my demonstrating the inconsistencies in your rhetoric has someone “grasping at straws.”

Lap Monkeys...not just for spanking anymore!

You don’t know me that well.

Ego Monkeys, not just for “D” anymore…

As I previously pointed out, you advocate inaction (by the CDC), and vilify the same body (the CDC) when they perpetrate that which you claim you would choose for yourself. Prevention and treatment go hand in hand, to eschew prevention, ensures the need for treatment. Contradiction indeed.

Humans as “guinea pigs?” “Any study?” As I have previously stated, you have right to your opinion regarding your personal healthcare. When that opinion becomes an agenda, rife with speculation and innuendo, advocating a course that would halt medical advancement in prevention and treatment of disease, I will tke exception. It is your philosophy and mind set that would lead to “depopulation,” not the current policies and actions of the PHS, and CDC.

These two paragraphs clearly show what I mean by gibberish and babble. Especially the first paragraph. It says nothing. Thus, my point that you like to argue just for the sake or arguing!

And thank you so much for again noting my typo.....you are truly helpful. I hope your correcting of my spelling has helped you with whatever ego trouble you seem to be having!

The FDA announced today that Wyeth's smallpox vaccine will now be required to carry a black box warning owing to cardiac events (heart inflammation) that have occurred after vaccinations. Myopericarditis cases were reported after healthcare workers were given the vaccine in 2003:

Wyeth smallpox vaccine to carry heart warning
News Link
"Wyeth's smallpox vaccine will come with a new "black-box warning" about cardiac problems that have occurred after immunization, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration said on Tuesday."

The new black box warning label info appears here in the "Adverse Reactions" section:

www.fda.gov...
"The reporting rates from the Department of Defense and civilian smallpox vaccination programs likely underestimate the true incidence of myopericarditis following Dryvax, especially cases of mild or subclinical disease..."


[edit on 11-10-2005 by Thomas Crowne]

The FDA announced today that Wyeth's smallpox vaccine will now be required to carry a black box warning owing to cardiac events (heart inflammation) that have occurred after vaccinations. Myopericarditis cases were reported after healthcare workers were given the vaccine in 2003:

In reading your links, there are a lot of other adverse reactions to the same vaccine. As I've been saying throughout this thread...vaccines are trouble!

Thanks for the new info!!

In new, vaccine-related news, three new cases of polio in children, preceded by an infected infant a few weeks ago, have occurred in the unvaccinated Amish population in Minnesota.

Three More Polio Cases Found in Minn.

Three cases of polio (search) virus infection have been identified in an Amish community (search) in central Minnesota (search) family, the state Health Department said Thursday... None of the four children have symptoms of paralytic polio, health officials said, and none were vaccinated against the illness. Health officials said they were working with the Amish community to determine who may have been exposed to the virus.

It remains a mystery how the children were exposed to the polio virus; officials are theorizing that they may somehow come in contact with an infected person's stool or saliva. Although health authorities insist that only those who have NOT been vaccinated, AND come in close contact with an infected person are at risk of polio exposure, they did note that the polio strain that the children are infected with is related to the live virus strain that is still used outside of the U.S. in polio vaccines themselves:

The baby had been diagnosed with immune system problems but didn't show symptoms of paralytic polio infection. The strain appeared to be related to the oral vaccine still used in some countries... Use of oral polio vaccine containing the live virus stopped in the United States in 2000, replaced with an injected vaccine made from the killed virus. The live-virus vaccine caused an annual average of eight cases of paralytic polio nationwide. The last naturally occurring case of polio in the United States was in 1979... Minnesota's last case — related to the live-virus vaccine — occurred in 1992.

[edit on 13-10-2005 by battleschool]

Dude, you're way off-base. Disgusting or not, it have been well documented.

-P

Originally posted by XanaX

No problem, how about an entire ATS thread on just that topic:

Interesting....the second thread says "rumor" and "truth or fiction"...so these threads are about a rumor, not fact. I'd make sure something was a fact before I stated something as disgusting as you did! It must show some sort of deep seated ill-will or hate you have toward those people.

Again...another instance where I wish I could ignore a moderator.....

Edit to add: I read the first thread. This is horrible of you to even bring up in this instance. The situation you describe is simply pedophiles using AIDS as an excuse for child abuse. No one believed this to be a cure for AIDS....I don't care how "backward" you think these people are!

Funny, you'll believe this, but not that vaccines kill people and that the CDC purposely kills people.

[edit on 5-10-2005 by XanaX]

Dude, you're way off-base. Disgusting or not, it have been well documented.

Dude...a well documented rumor is still a RUMOR! And why don't you read some more of my posts regarding this topic throughout this thread....and why don't we stay on track. Raping babies isn't on track

The argument against vaccines is at best a strawman. The simple fact is that vaccines work.

Really? Did this one work:

"Medical historians have finally come to the reluctant conclusion that the great flu "epidemic" of 1918 was solely attributable to the widespread use of vaccines. It was the first war in which vaccination was compulsory for all servicemen. The Boston Herald reported that forty-seven soldiers had been killed by vaccination in one month. As a result, the military hospitals were filled, not with wounded combat casualties, but with casualties of the vaccine. The epidemic was called "the Spanish Influenza," a deliberately misleading appellation, which was intended to conceal its origin. This flu epidemic claimed twenty million victims; those who survived it were the ones who had refused the vaccine. In recent years, annual recurring epidemics of flu recalled "the Russian Flu." For some reason, the Russians never protest, perhaps because the Rockefellers make regular trips to Moscow to lay down the party line.

The perils of vaccination were already known. Plain Talk magazine notes that "during the Franco-Prussian War, every German soldier was vaccinated. The result was that 53,288 otherwise healthy men developed smallpox. The death rate was high."






[edit on 15-10-2005 by XanaX]

Vaccines are responsible for for more deaths than the diseases themselves and other amazing facts, such as: firing a loaded gun into your mouth will cure a headache; wiping your arse with barbed wire is a good idea and the moon is made of fox tails.

Just lets step back from from this moment and apply the tiniest bit of common sense. Look at the countries in Western Europe and Northern America where vaccinations are widespread. They have much life expectancies and much lower rates of communicable disease than countries (such as those in sub-saharan Africa) that do not have widespread vaccination programs. Like to guess why this is?

What happened to all those diseases that used to kill and maim by the millions in Europe such as smallpox, polio and TB, if it wasn't vaccinations that effectively eliminated them? Hearbal remedies? Suggestions on a postcard please.

Vaccinations do however have certain risks associated with them, as with any medical intervention. This is fully acknowledged by the medical community, including the (evil) CDC. For example:

www.cdc.gov...

All medical interventions are about balancing risks.

Originally posted by XanaX
Really? Did this one work:

"Medical historians have finally come to the reluctant conclusion that the great flu "epidemic" of 1918 was solely attributable to the widespread use of vaccines. It was the first war in which vaccination was compulsory for all servicemen. The Boston Herald reported that forty-seven soldiers had been killed by vaccination in one month. As a result, the military hospitals were filled, not with wounded combat casualties, but with casualties of the vaccine. The epidemic was called "the Spanish Influenza," a deliberately misleading appellation, which was intended to conceal its origin. This flu epidemic claimed twenty million victims; those who survived it were the ones who had refused the vaccine. In recent years, annual recurring epidemics of flu recalled "the Russian Flu." For some reason, the Russians never protest, perhaps because the Rockefellers make regular trips to Moscow to lay down the party line.

Garbage. Absolute garbage. Would you like to name any of these so called "medical historians"? I'd like to see the books they have written and the peer reviewed papers they have published. Please refer me to them.

The fact is there was not (and still isn't) any vaccine for the 1918 flu, read this and maybe you'll stop spouting such rubbish:

www.stanford.edu...

Garbage. Absolute garbage. Would you like to name any of these so called "medical historians"? I'd like to see the books they have written and the peer reviewed papers they have published. Please refer me to them.

The fact is there was not (and still isn't) any vaccine for the 1918 flu, read this and maybe you'll stop spouting such rubbish:

It's not garbage, it's documented fact. The vaccine caused the 1918 flu pandemic. Now your saying there is no vaccine for that flu..well yes, because the one they had in 1918 killed practically everyone that took it. The ones that didn't take it lived. The vaccine caused the pandemic.

Relax pal.....I'm not spouting rubbish.....I'm speaking the truth which many don't want to hear, but it's still truth even if you turn a blind eye to it.

[edit on 16-10-2005 by XanaX]

edit to add: Your link is rubbish (to use your word). It is exactly what the government wants people to believe. It's just like picking up an encyclopedia and reading about how Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman in the JFK assassination. Give me a break. Believe what you want and what the government wants you to believe and just be another ZOMBIE!!

[edit on 16-10-2005 by XanaX]

Duke...did you also miss this:

The perils of vaccination were already known. Plain Talk magazine notes that "during the Franco-Prussian War, every German soldier was vaccinated. The result was that 53,288 otherwise healthy men developed smallpox. The death rate was high."

Is this "rubbish" too? NO...it's documented fact. Vaccines are dangerous...period!

with all due respect, would any pro-vaccine supporters change views, if say for example, a child of theirs were part of the small margin that ended up dying? replace "child" with anyone you love dearly.