NEWS: An Islamic Guide On How To Beat Your Wife

It has nothing to do with whether or not Christians or Westerners beat their women. It has to do with what is considered acceptable, and what is condoned.

My experience in Saudi Arabia has shown me that in general, wife beating or spousal abuse is an accepted practice in those countries. Thus, the real crime. The measure of a culture or society is not what goes on, as evil exists in every society. It is a matter of what people tolerate and accept that measures whether or not that society is truly moral or civilized.

This Immam is a savage.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, how many years did you spend in Saudi Arabia?

Which parts of it?

You also like Freedom are not able to display laws which make it legal or have over-ridden the Qu'Ran, so it is just through ignorance [on women and the courts] that it is allowed to happen.

Skadi makes a good point; there has to be a moderate discernment between the culture and society where women from various parts of the world are being abused. Saudi Arabia has dictated an utter disregard for human rights on numerous levels, and women feel this utility far more severely. The Middle East by far, including many other third world countries which have not felt not only the economic success of the west, but the social revolutions that came along therein, have not evolved much sociologicaly to make these changes, and we must also take into account that they have for a great numbers of years been subordinated by the west.

At any rate, spousal abuse in rampant in all societies, regardless of the sex, may I add.

Luxifero

Originally posted by Odium
And your problem is working out which part 'wife beating' comes from. Let me quote your source once more.

First of all; it is not my problem. I is not me interpretting Islam in this and other manners. It is Muslims. I am merily reporting on what is happening in Islamic countries; and specifically in this thread, how Muslim women are treated.

It is not simply one surah or one single book of the Hadith that prescribes for or opposes the beating of one's wife. It is, rather, the compilationof statements and expressions the describe a woman's role in Islam. Statements such as:

Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 3, hadith 826: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."

Sahih Muslim, vol. 4, hadith 6597: Ibn Abbas reported that Allah's Messenger said: I had a chance to look into paradise and I found that majority of the people was poor and I looked into the Fire and there I found the majority constituted by women.

Sahih Muslim, volume 4, hadith 6600 Imran b. Husain reported that Allah's Messenger said: Amongst the inmates of Paradise the women would form a minority.

Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 1, book 6, 301: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion.

I could go on. The point is that there are numerous references in the Qur'an and the Hadith that describe women in an inferior way. Given that all good Muslims must memorize the Qur'an and live by the teachings of the prohet in EVERY facet of his life, it is not an incredible leap of understanding why Muslim men regard women the way they do---and beat them if they see fit (and as the Qur'an states they should). By the way, as I stated in a previous post regarding what the prophet says: It sounds to me like he is saying "Don't beat your wives as you would a camel and expect to be able to make consensual love with her". There is nothing in his teachings prohibiting a [light] beating of one's wife.[b/]





[edit on 10-10-2005 by Freedom_for_sum]

Freedom,

You're getting very tuatologous. We are well aware that there are verses in the Qu'ran and other such Islamic dialouges which condone the abuse of spouses, however, you have failed to make the connection to moder day abuse by Muslim men in various societies over the world.

Luxifero

Freedom_for_sum, maybe you should read your own points?

Let me take the first for an example:

Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 3, hadith 826: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."

The last part can be taken in one of two ways, either:
A) She is deficient comapired to a man or;
B) She is deficient for thinking that a woman is lower.

It is up to you to judge on how you think it should be taken and the problem is, you wish to take it in the first instance [A] as a way to 'harm' Islam. [For lack of a better term.]

The second quote has no meaning whatsoever. So what if more women are found in hell? Big deal...the third is just an extension of this.

The last quote again can be taken in many ways, Sahih al-Bukhari, but the problem is how many people view it and how it is taken out of context of the rest of it. The view that the 'mensus' is 'dirty' comes back from an old tradition that women have periods as punishment for leading men astray in the Garden of Eden. However like many people you forget Book 6 is highly persuasive and not binding, due to the fact it was made per incuriam.

again I quote;

a) "According to some traditions the Prophet said in his famous and well-attended speech on the occasion of his farewell pilgrimage that the beating done according to the present verse should be ghayr mubarrih, i.e. in such a way that it should not cause injury, bruise or serious hurt. On this basis some scholars like Tabari and Razi say even that it should be largely symbolic and should be administered "with a folded scarf" or "with a miswak or some such thing". However, to be effective in its purpose of shaking the wife out of her nasty mood it is important that it should provide an energetic demonstration of the anger, frustration and love of the husband. In other words, it should neither seriously hurt the wife nor reduce it to a set of meaningless motions devoid of emotions."

The problem is, like many people you wish to assume a bad side of Islam and promote it to be such a thing instead of saying, "well actually maybe that is the meaning."

In other words, it is a symbol which should not involved any harm, however I guess that'd be too easy right?

Originally posted by Luxifero
Freedom,

You're getting very tuatologous.

Luxifero

Uh let's see; had to look this one up:

Tautologous

\Tau*tol"o*gous\, a. [Gr. ?; ?, for ? ? the same + ? to speak.] Repeating the same thing in different words; tautological. [R.] --Tooke.

Yep; you're right. This is because as an instructor, I've found that different people learn different ways and therefore stating or explaining something in various ways eventually results in many individuals understanding what is being said. This works very well on technical issues--probably not on issues being broached here.

I could argue, however, that you too are being "tautologous" as you also seem to be repeating yourself--despite the fact that what I and Skadi_the_Evil_Elf have stated here are about the same. Never the less, you agree with Skadi and disagree with me.

So allow me to be "Tautologous" once again and say that it doesn't matter what you believe or what I believe. What matters is what 100's of millions (perhaps more) living in arab nations and under Sharia law believe.

Until 911 I never gave Islam a second thought. Since then, I've taken the liberty to see what has been happening and how these so-called extremists can justify their actions. It turns out that they seem to be complying with what they've learned from Islam. Based on what I've read; they're not extremists at all--they are literalists.

Freedom_for_sum, those same people would have more than likely still abused a woman. You can't give any proof whatsoever that it is down to Islam when there is so much open abuse in every single culture in the world.

Originally posted by Odium
Freedom_for_sum, those same people would have more than likely still abused a woman. You can't give any proof whatsoever that it is down to Islam when there is so much open abuse in every single culture in the world.

Odium;

From a previous post I'm guessing you're from England. In not; please correct me.

Are you saying that there is a lot of "open" wife beating going on in England? Can husbands beat their wives without any repercussions from the law?

Freedom_for_sum, they can't in Arabic Nation's.

The problem is proof of such an action in both areas. I have seen many cases, in court where a husband has claimed he didn't beat his wife and she says otherwise. However, bruises and marks do not count as proof unless she can show only he did them and this is the larger problem. I hate to see people like this get off innocent, but the protection for women isn't there - even in the United Kingdom. The protection for people in general isn't there...

Then Odium--we can agree to disagree. I believe I've backed my assertions in the previous posts.

I feel a need to revive this thread with anecdotal information relevent to the topics here. Saudi author Badriyya Al-Bishr, a lecturer in social sciences at King Saud University, recently published this article titled "Imagine You're a Woman" in the London Arabic-language daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat.

Excerpt:

"Imagine you're a woman, and you are subject to assault, beatings, or murder. When the press publishes your photo [together with] the photo of the criminals and [descriptions] of their brutality, there are people who ask: 'Was the victim covered [by a veil] or not?' If she was covered up, [the question arises:] 'Who let her go out of the house at such an hour?' In the event that your husband is the one who broke your ribs, [people will say] that no doubt there was good reason for it."

Islam doesn't promote treating women like a sub-class of cattle??? Ya Right!!

This may be interesting ....

womhist.binghamton.edu...

The article has some interesting points - you be the judge.

Oh for Christs sake...

Read your own sources for a change please people.

Think about it for a long moment, oh yes, it is an "excerpt from her article".

Guess what?

I can take an article, cut around other peoples points and make my own from it. :|

"Imagine you're a woman who writes in a newspaper, and every time you write about your [women's] concerns, problems, poverty, unemployment, and legal status, they say about you: 'Never mind her, it's all women's talk.'"

Well damn...even that one, like many of the others, happens all over the World.

There are many husbands, both Islamic and Non-Islamic, who do many of the actions described from the article. You still have not proven that all Islamic Men are like that or that it is even a large part of Islam.

Originally posted by Odium
There are many husbands, both Islamic and Non-Islamic, who do many of the actions described from the article.

The big differrence being that in Western Countries, the men who do these things are behaving counter to the established moral value system, and if caught are usually punished for it, as much as our corrupt legal systems will allow.

In Islamic countries, it seems that according to the Koran, the men who do these things are just following religious law. This behavior is sanctioned by Islam through what is written in their holy book.

Besides, trying to defend evil deeds by pointing out that others do evil deeds accomplishes little except to show that you have no defence for your position. Guilt, like Misery loves company.

You still have not proven that all Islamic Men are like that or that it is even a large part of Islam.

Actually the fact that women are required to cover themselves in Islamic countries says quite enough for me about how women are viewed there. This one example of control over women demonstraits the mindset that sanctions all the rest of it.

If the majority of Islamic men do not support this or participate in it, why is it still this way? Are you telling me that hundreds of millions of Islamic men have so little power or input into their religion that they can't change behavior that is obviously negitive and backwards? If they feel themselves that weak, its no wonder they fear their women. Or would you rather not admit that most muslim men wouldn't change the status of women in their culture if given the chance? Then why won't they? If they don't agree with how women are treated in their culture, why hasn't it changed already?

In my opinion, Skadi and Freedom_for_sum have made and supported their points well. I think they have won this debate.

Where does it say that?

I am still waiting for someone to show me where it does.

The abuse of women also happens heavily in Africa, in the Christian parts but does the Catholic Church come forward and attempt to stop it? No.

Domestic abuse is claimed to happen once every six seconds in the United Kingdom. Yeah, we might see it as wrong but their is such a high level of abuse with little convictions that nothing ever seems to change it.

Originally posted by Odium
Yeah, we might see it as wrong but their is such a high level of abuse with little convictions that nothing ever seems to change it.

This is my point: We see it as wrong. Under Islamic law--it is not wrong!!

Originally posted by Odium
Where does it say that?

I am still waiting for someone to show me where it does.

Go back and re-read this thread. I posted several references, recognised by other posters, that shows how Islam promotes abuse of women.

Odium;

Maybe our definition of abuse is different. While I'm sure you and I both agree that beating a woman is abuse, I also believe the following is abusive:
--Forcing someone to wear a certain kind/style of clothing. (ie: they have no choice; lest they get punished).
--Forcing someone to remain in their home unless they are chaperoned.
--Preventing a person from self determination by prohibiting them from working. A person who doesn't work cannot be independent--they are very dependent on another who might be beating them regularily.
--Establishing that a person's opinion/persepctive is only half the value of another's based on one's gender.

These, as well as other issues, are all sanctioned against women by Islam and all serve to establish women as some kind of inferior being.

It's bad enough that human nature is such that inferior beings are often looked upon and treated as sub-class. Think about how obese people are often viewed or treated. Or people who are diminished mentally or who have severe physical malformations (remember the "elephant man")

When this behavior is sanctioned by law, there is no way out from this abuse. A perfect example would be the US's experience with slavery. Blacks, as indentured servents, were viewed as a sub-class of inferior biengs and treated as such. Despite the fact that the law changed, we are still dealing with problems stemming from this blight in our history. It takes a long time for a people to overcome the stigma of mal-treatment. Islam's treatment of women is no different.

From a purely feminist point of view, who here can say that wife beating is wrong if the recipient of the hiding thinks they deserve it? If the woman wants to be beaten then where does that leave things?

In a recent survey, 94% of women thought they deserved a beating now and again.

missmabrouk.blogspot.com...

You only have to look at the next few figures to see that brutality to women
is not confined to Islamic nations.

www.gulf-news.com...


This begs the question - if the vast majority of women in those countries say they deserve to be beaten just what is the norm? What and to who is the accepted? In the polarised view of women being property, one man's meat may be another man's tenderised steak.
Obviously, we in the West find (or should find) wife beating abhorrent - it is unacceptable in what we view as modern, civilised society. But in these times where the politically correct are safeguarding cultural differences (no matter how distasteful) what makes this issue stand out? If both genders of a nation agree on wife-beating being acceptable, what right does an outsider have to put a stop to it?

If you want to put a stop to it, you don't just have to change the male attitude - you have to change the female also. You have to interfere drastically with a whole way of life. And isn't that a step that many in our politically correct society find unacceptable?

Personally, I say let them go at it. If the wife wants to be beaten she is as stupid as the man who does the beating.


Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

Freedom for Sum, show me the laws then.

Go for it...

You have yet to display any law, in any Islamic Nation. In fact, you have just done another U-Turn in your arguement.

At first it was about domestic abuse, then it shifted to Islam allowing domestic abuse and now it has shifted to any abuse on women.

Guess what?

They are still under-paid compaired to men in the United Kingdom, to me that is also abuse.

Looks to me like we allow a form of economic abuse in the Western World.

Last I checked this wasn't an Islamic Nation.

Check...mate.