China's new diesel/electric sub looks almost just like the new German sub U212.

this one is the Yuan class submarine.



the rest of the pics below are the German U212.





its possible that the Chinese are influenced by the new German design submarine or its possible the Germans helped them created the hull to help make it a deadly quiet submarine. of course they just may be copying wat they learn from the Kilo since its similar. the difference is in the aft where the Yuan tail rudder is like a cross while the Germans are the X rudder.

www.sinodefence.com...

Unconfirmed reports suggested that Shaanxi Diesel Manufactory is currently building the German MTU 16V-396 diesel under license. The same diesel is used to power the German Type 212 diesel-electric submarine.

of course its base on assumptions but its somthing to look at if the Germans are making the Chinese jump ahead in submarine technology.

Your own link suggests that the "Yuan" class is influenced by the older "Song" and russian "Kilo" class uboats. Although seemingly no technical details on the "Yuan" are publicly available as of now, both "Song" and "Kilo" boats are about 75m long and have a displacement around 2300 metric tons. They also have a Crew of 52-60 persons. I would suggest that the "Yuan" class would be of roughly comparable size.

The U212 instead is only 56m long and has a crew of 27. Its submerged displacement is only 1830t. The hulls of these vessels are absolutely non-comparable, and the pics you provide clearly show that the "Yuan" and U212 hulls have no further similarity. And even IF the Diesel engine is a licensed copy, it is just that: a Diesel engine. Granted, being a rather new MTU engine it most probably is a top-of-the-line product, but certainly no "jump ahead" in technology.

I cannot believe that Germany would have sold the U212s most outstanding feature, the fuel cuell (which, BTW, is manufactured by Siemens and not MTU). Especially because this is the most advanced diesel-electric submarine at the moment - selling such vital technology would be a major offense to the US, India, Japan and other allies. And I am also not sure if this would not violate the weapons embargo : The engine clearly is a dual-purpose technology, it could be used for civilian purposes, too. But the hull and other components would clearly be of military intention, and AFAIK would thus be prohibited to sell. BTW, the whole U212/214 has already been sold and partially built for Greece 3 boats), Italy (2 boats) and South Korea (3 boats).

[edit on 4/10/2005 by Lonestar24]

WTF

Take another look
.







The Yuan was first sighted by the west in 2004. which means it was built before

The first 212 was built in 2003.

A kinda stretch of the imagination




And

Unconfirmed reports suggested that Shaanxi Diesel Manufactory is currently building the German MTU 16V-396 diesel under license. The same diesel is used to power the German Type 212 diesel-electric submarine.

anyway the U212 is a copy of the akula




You see how childish it is

Originally posted by chinawhite
anyway the U212 is a copy of the akula


You see how childish it is

read my post carefully where i say it looks almost....and i add that they also may be influenced by the Kilo that they have. read the first post buddy.

China steals ideas everyday, why not steal sub Ideas?

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
China steals ideas everyday, why not steal sub Ideas?

Because even China can only copy stuff they were able to lay their hands on.

at the risk of either "stating the obvious " or highlighing my ignorance :

how many configurations for a sub are there ?

IMHO suubs of a similar role pretty much look the same anyway

propulsion at the back

sail / coning towter on top

missile tupes [ if fitted ] mounted ventrally

torp tubes / main sonar system in the bows

etc

I am told that the X design of the rudder and stern planes on the German boat gives better maneuvering. In America our boats have the more traditional vertical and horizontal design for the rudder and stern planes aft.
It would be very intresting to see how the linkage is designed and hooked up internally from the hydraulic power cylinders internal of the boat through the aft ballast tanks also the yoke mechanism in the ballast tanks.
I know the US Navy built some boats with the X design for the stern planes and rudder but went back to the more traditional vertical and horizontal design.
Intresting pictures guys..thanks

Orangetom

The sonar dome foreward is not that smooth. Indicating limited speed capability before cavitating.
Wondering if those are torpedo tubes in the circles on the bow or sonar arrays? If it is torpedo tubes it tells me that with such a torpedo tube array they dont have much hydraulic powered reloading capability. Meaning it is more manual with block and tackles and chainfalls. This would be why they need so many tubes because of lack of quick reloading. Noisy too.Chainfalls make noise..come alongs too.
Also it is apparent by the small slots along the side of the deck fore to aft that that is a hollow turtleback on top the ship or what they call double hull construction. The actual pressure hull is down inside a certain distance. Intresting.!!
Thank for the pictures.

Orangetom

Your question is not highlighting your ignorance at all. It is just natural curiosity.
In Answer..there are many different designs of submarine Many different configurations even between a series or class of boats of one type constructed.
Certain boats of a class are often selected for modifications making them more mission specific. Some are modified as specific test beds for new equipment and design changes within a series. Others are modified for new equipment and designs for the next class of boats on the drawing boards.
For example..a new engine design might be out in production and other than testing it in a pristine labratory condition or running a computer simulation..It might be desired to take a boat under construction in a series and install the new engine...to actually see how it will perform on a comissioned boat..not just in a labratory or on a computer. This is where the rubber meets the road...so to speak. The rest of the boats in that series have the older engines. But it will be tested at sea for the new boats still on the drawing boards
There is public knowlege now of boats modified extensively and specifically for intelligence gathering. Lots of special gadgets and gimicks on them to accomodate this kind of work. This continues unto this day. Nothing new here except the status of the state of the art gadgetry. Much of this is highly classified for obvious reasons.
So you see ignorant ape...the variety and versitility are many and varied. I will also add one other factor...budgets..this factor plays heavily on how and what kind of submarine or any other piece of equipment is built for anyone. Nothing catches up to a project faster than a budget cut.
Keep in mind that the SR 71 spyplane for the United States was so fast and so successful that in the end nothing could catch up to it like a budget cut. Definitely a truism...in any endevour.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by deltaboy

read my post carefully where i say it looks almost....and i add that they also may be influenced by the Kilo that they have. read the first post buddy.

You mean this buddy?

its possible that the Chinese are influenced by the new German design submarine or its possible the Germans helped them created the hull to help make it a deadly quiet submarine

[edit on 8-10-2005 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by chinawhite

You mean this buddy?

its possible that the Chinese are influenced by the new German design submarine or its possible the Germans helped them created the hull to help make it a deadly quiet submarine

of course they just may be copying wat they learn from the Kilo since its similar.

dont forget that to add this as well, buddy. thank you. as u can see.

Originally posted by deltaboy

... its possible the Germans helped them created the hull to help make it a deadly quiet submarine

...]of course they just may be copying wat they learn from the Kilo since its similar.

dont forget that to add this as well, buddy. thank you. as u can see.

But then I wonder how you see a possibility that this Yuan hull was made with german help and STILL be similar to a Kilo

Howdie,

To be honest, I don't believer there is much to compare both the U212 and the "new" chinese Yuan designed sub, granted they are both of a small design and use, to our knowledge, conventual propulsion in so much as Desiel or AIP. That is what in my opinion the similar design ends.

The Yuan from all respects is a sino designed upgrade of the export Kilo, at present it is believed to have AIP, but to be honest, it hasn't been confirmed from what I know, the german design is AIP powered.

As for the design of the Yuan, some thing does interest me, the planes mounted on the sail, to my knowledge the planes on the sails of the early LA boats were changed in favour of fitting them back to the hull for a few reasons, the main one I am aware of is when the sub is at periscope depth, if the sea is stormy, its "easier" to lose pitch control. I may be wrong but some of the other members may be able to let you know, with more detail.

I frankly don't believe that the Yuan isn't much more than a Kilo with some western electronics, while that is some thing to worry about, I honestly believe that at present, it isn't much more than an upgrade, nothing near the level of technology of the germany U212 or for that matter the crew.

- Phil

Originally posted by Lonestar24

But then I wonder how you see a possibility that this Yuan hull was made with german help and STILL be similar to a Kilo

because it brought up to my mind, thats why i said of course the Kilo may influence the Chinese instead of the Germans. why u dink i say of course?

The new boat, which appears to be a combination of indigenous Chinese hardware and Russian weapons, suggests that China is building up its submarine forces in preparation for a conflict over Taiwan, defense analysts say....www.armscontrolwonk.com...


A Chinese model - below





From Sinodefence

• DESIGN - The Yuan class inherits the tail design of the Type 039 (NATO codename: Song class) with four diving planes and a single large shaft. The teardrop shaped hull and large sail suggest heavy Kilo influence. A pair of foreplanes are positioned in the middle of the sail. The submarine is covered with rubber anti-sonar protection tiles to reduce the risk of detection.
  Unconfirmed reports claimed that the PLA Navy has already experimentally fitted the air independent propulsion (AIP) system on some Type 039 (Song class) and Type 035 (Ming class) submarines. It is speculated that the Yuan class could well be the first Chinese submarine to be fitted with an operational AIP system, but this cannot be proved.
  
  
• WEAPONS - The Yuan class has five 533mm torpedo tubes. These can be used to launch indigenous as well as Russian-made torpedoes. The Yuan class is also believed to be capable of launching YJ-8X (C-80X) series anti-ship missiles. The missile uses inertial + terminal active radar guidance. It carries a 165kg time-delayed semi-armour-piercing high-explosive warhead, with a maximum range of 80~120km and speed of Mach 0.9.
  
  
• PROPULSION - Unconfirmed reports suggested that Shaanxi Diesel Manufactory is currently building the German MTU 16V-396 diesel under license. The same diesel is used to power the German Type 212 diesel-electric submarine.
  
  
  

Yeah, the earlier Chinese designs didn't do too well. There were a lot of accidents. Looks obvious that they had help or just copied some stuff. Which is normal. Mil-Tech/Hi-Tech is big international business.

What is new, is that there are now a lot of very quiet diesel submarines in the Chinese Navy. Not long range, but they don't need it right now. Combined with a new sub-launched hi-speed anti-ship cruise missile, it's serious.

First of all, considering that most subs of the same role look alike, these two subs don't even look REMOTELY similar

The tower of the German sub is fatter, shorter, and more trapezoid shaped while the tower of the Yuan is tall, thin, and square
The hump of the Yuan is more to the back
The torpedo launchers are all in completely different configurations, except in the final pic which apparently is not even a U-212 look how different that last one is from your other U-212 pics, and notice how on the tower it says "S212"
The Yuan has a round nose while the U-212 has an upard tipping nose

Second of all, it's what's INSIDE the sub that matters. Almost every sub in the world look alike from the outside.

Practically all subs are a big tube with some fins.