Eurofighter Radars Didn't Spot F/A-22s

Originally posted by Senser

In the article it states that the eurofighter did see the raptor on radar but it was said it wasnt fully in stealth mode.

Is it me or is no one reading this...??

It's not in Full Stealth configuration, how much more should there be? It's simple, it's not in full Stealth Configuration, and so it can be seen.

Shattered OUT...

Can anyone confirm (either way) that F-22s may face up against the Indians in the 2nd round of the war games??

I seen that somewhere, don't ask me where though, I cannot remember...

COME ONE, read the previous posts BEFORE you write yours.

All stealth aircraft have retractable "detectors" that are almost always out when they fly non-military missions. When the B2 flies to europe and such for long flights, it deploys a long cable, like an antenna that transmitts its location so ground controllers can track it. It is only in stealth mode when doing training or war.

And as for the euro fighter trackign the raptor, if it did, it was by this means, it wasnt actually tracking the airframe, like most of you think, or want to believe, it was tracking the radar being transmitted from the raptor to ground control.

Alot of people continually want to think the raptor is somehow obsolete and useless, come on people, this plane has been in development for 25 years, at costs never before seen by engineers who have in the past created the worlds greatest planes. Can we let it go. Nothing can track this plane, NOTHING.

Train

Originally posted by BigTrain
COME ONE, read the previous posts BEFORE you write yours.

All stealth aircraft have retractable "detectors" that are almost always out when they fly non-military missions. When the B2 flies to europe and such for long flights, it deploys a long cable, like an antenna that transmitts its location so ground controllers can track it. It is only in stealth mode when doing training or war.

And as for the euro fighter trackign the raptor, if it did, it was by this means, it wasnt actually tracking the airframe, like most of you think, or want to believe, it was tracking the radar being transmitted from the raptor to ground control.

Alot of people continually want to think the raptor is somehow obsolete and useless, come on people, this plane has been in development for 25 years, at costs never before seen by engineers who have in the past created the worlds greatest planes. Can we let it go. Nothing can track this plane, NOTHING.

Train

Actually, I have been keeping up with the thread from start to now. So I know that aircraft have retractable gear. And who is this "most of us"? So 2-3 people agree on one thing, that makes up 3k members? Yea.

Shattered OUT...

The topic is Aircraft Projects » Eurofighter Radars Didn't Spot F/A-22s. I ask that all participants please confine their posts to the aforementioned topic lest my clumsy monkey fingers slip and we're all sorry...

Thanks.

Originally posted by Senser

In the article it states that the eurofighter did see the raptor on radar but it was said it wasnt fully in stealth mode.

Is it me or is no one reading this...??

Apparently you are only reading the first sentence and reading no further.
The article states that there are rumors about the Typhoons seeing the Raptor on their radar BUT the rumors are unfounded as the Raptors and Typhoons were NEVER in the air together.

First, they say, the Typhoons and F/A-22s were never in the air at the same time.

It goes on to say that even IF the Typhoons had somehow seen the Raptors on their radar it would have been meaningless since they fly with radar reflectors.

Second, the F/A-22s always have an enhanced signature for positive air control, except when they go to war or when the range has been cleared for F/A-22-only operations.

Is that clear enough?

Lets see, the F-15 has been the dominate air superiority fighter for a long time now, and it is not stealth at all. So the debating how stealthy the f-22 is is kind of weird, it was never supposed to be invisible, it was supposed to be harder to see. Big enough radars and skilled enough operators, I bet it is visible. But it is visible a lot closer to target than other planes, making it stealthy. And it would not be good for the eurofighter to be blasting its radar full strength, makes it a really easy target for some radar homing missles.

Originally posted by mxboy15u
And it would not be good for the eurofighter to be blasting its radar full strength, makes it a really easy target for some radar homing missles.

Agreed. I would expect the only constant radar emissions in a hypothetical conflict would be from GCI or AWACS, with fighters passively scanning the sky and relying on external sources of active radar data.

Therefore, in my opinion, the F-22 needs to be able to avoid ground/airborne control radar, at least that way the USAF can pick the time and place of an engagement to suit themselves - especially as an F-22 force cannot be expected to out-number the opposition. I expect the way an F-22 would be used is to manouevre into a position outside of the radar cone of an adversery (unknown as it cannot be seen by opposing CGI/AWACS) and strike from there.

Even if the eurofighter can detect an F-22 on radar it would not mean it would beat it as the F-22 would be approaching outside the radar field. However, if GCI/AWACS can detect an F-22 and redeploy air assets accordingly, then the USAF is in a spot of bother. Still has some advantage as the radar detection range of eurofighter will be reduced, possibly impacting on missile launch range, and probably on the missile seeker (radar) being spoofed by countermeasures easier.


Disclaimer: I know its F/A-22 but I couldn't be bothered writing it... also if any of this is rubbish it's because I'm knackered!

Originally posted by gooseuk
I just want to point out the fact that this article doesn't say the Eurofighter CAN'T pick up the F/A-22, I just want to make that care to all the americans that feel the need to start waving flags and bashing the Eurofighter.

You must be referencing those flag waving folks when the topic went around this forum concerning the Eurofighter downing two F-15s when the Eurofighter was allegedly jumped by them? Apparently, those that wave flags and do subtle bashing of aircraft are not restricted to simply "all" Americans, eh?

On the other hand, considering a couple topics that you have started on the F-22 Raptor, I have no doubt that if this article had mentioned that the Eurofighter did detect the F-22 in full stealth mode, you would certainly not be giving the cautious advice against flag waving, etc. that you are now, you think?





seekerof

[edit on 3-10-2005 by Seekerof]

I don't think it's really fair for us to be knocking on RADAR like this, we won't truely know what the full extent of the F/A-22's Stealth Capabilities are until we actually see it in combat and see it's combat record.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by intelgurl

Originally posted by Senser

In the article it states that the eurofighter did see the raptor on radar but it was said it wasnt fully in stealth mode.

Is it me or is no one reading this...??

Apparently you are only reading the first sentence and reading no further.
The article states that there are rumors about the Typhoons seeing the Raptor on their radar BUT the rumors are unfounded as the Raptors and Typhoons were NEVER in the air together.

First, they say, the Typhoons and F/A-22s were never in the air at the same time.

It goes on to say that even IF the Typhoons had somehow seen the Raptors on their radar it would have been meaningless since they fly with radar reflectors.

Second, the F/A-22s always have an enhanced signature for positive air control, except when they go to war or when the range has been cleared for F/A-22-only operations.

Is that clear enough?

Yes i read it all thank you, but what is the head of this thread about:Eurofighter Radars Didn't Spot F/A-22s

???

Originally posted by Senser

Yes i read it all thank you, but what is the head of this thread about:Eurofighter Radars Didn't Spot F/A-22s

???

The "Eurofighter Radars Didn't Spot F/A-22s" as rumors have it because the Eurofighters were never in the air with the Raptors. That is what the headline refers to.

Concerning the Raptor’s radar, the Raptor can use data link via AWAC’s or via other Raptor(s), this means that one Raptor can be used as the radar for 4 other Raptor’s. Those four Raptor’s can then fire their missiles with no radar emissions of their own.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I hope not

[edit on 3-10-2005 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Concerning the Raptor’s radar, the Raptor can use data link via AWAC’s or via other Raptor(s), this means that one Raptor can be used as the radar for 4 other Raptor’s. Those four Raptor’s can then fire their missiles with no radar emissions of their own.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I hope not

[edit on 3-10-2005 by WestPoint23]

That sounds extremely inefficient.

Shattered OUT...

Couple of things:

1) In regards to the USAF bringing the F-22 to play with the IAF in an exersize: I doubt that that will happen anytime soon. Why give away anything about the Raptors performance and give anybody any time to analyze any potential weakness.

2) In regards to the Raptor taking out 8 Typhoons or any other fighter is baselss speculation. A previous article I put up that dealt with the evaluation process suggested that 4:1 was a winable scenario and never mentioned 8:1. To expect one A/C to do so even with Robin Olds or Duke Cunningham in the cockpit is a bit much.

Whats all this arguing about RADAR??? For someone to get so hung up on whether the typhoon coulda/woulda/shoulda detected the F/A-22 on its radar shows an ignorance of the operational systems of the Typhoon itself.

I myself, Fred and Intelgurl have all stated (right at the beginning of the thread too!) that NO detection took place because NONE WAS ATTEMPTED. Is that clear enough?

Understand this though, no Typhoon flying against Raptors, either in excercise or somehow for real, would even attempt to use its radar as it is well known that they might as well broadcast a "shoot me down now!" message with it.


The Typhoon has several options which include this scenario posted by Westpoint relating to the Raptor itself;

Raptor can use data link via AWAC’s or via other Raptor(s), this means that one Raptor can be used as the radar for 4 other Raptor’s. Those four Raptor’s can then fire their missiles with no radar emissions of their own.

Yes, Typhoon can do this too if required.

The main option for the Typhoon though is the PIRATE system, by which it would be more likely to be successful (not that I am guaranteeing that success) which is so accurate it is claimed it can track an aircraft by picking up the kinetic heating of its skin from 160km away. I am sure that athe Raptor will have a similar feature of its own, it would be bonkers not to, but it is worth remebering that while the Raptor does indeed have a major advantage over every rival, invincibility has not yet been patented by the DoD.

Now the reasons why no engagement was attempted I can not claim to know or understand as I would have thought having the two types together was an opportunity not to be missed.

You could look at it either way;

There is a viewpoint that the RAF would not expect to win an engagement with the Raptor anyway so the USAF had more to lose by having a very expensive fighter exposed in engagement with a much cheaper adversary, which could lead to all sorts of political problems for the programme.

On the other hand it could be down to a knowledge of the ignorance of the British press and their willingness to Typhoon-bash at any opportunity so it was a favour to Britain as the outcome was entirely predictable anyway, meaning an easy USAF win that the tabloids would have leapt upon with glee.

either could be right, or both could be wrong. Who of us really knows?

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Concerning the Raptor’s radar, the Raptor can use data link via AWAC’s or via other Raptor(s), this means that one Raptor can be used as the radar for 4 other Raptor’s. Those four Raptor’s can then fire their missiles with no radar emissions of their own.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I hope not

[edit on 3-10-2005 by WestPoint23]

That sounds extremely inefficient.

Shattered OUT...

Why?

It sounds extremely SAFE to me. HARM missiles have gotten pretty good lately. The only constantly emitting Radar I want to be sitting under in wartime is an Aegis class, something with some serious defence all of its own, say about three layers, missiles, guns and phalanx...

Originally posted by waynos
Whats all this arguing about RADAR??? For someone to get so hung up on whether the typhoon coulda/woulda/shoulda detected the F/A-22 on its radar shows an ignorance of the operational systems of the Typhoon itself.

I don't think anyone is arguing over that, the argument is more that even if the eurofighter can detect the F-22 on radar, its a pretty moot point, as in war, no fighter will be running around with its radar on signposting its position to everybody.

The real question should be, can AWACS/GCI detect a F-22?

well it will be interesting to see how the raptor will do in Iran since Bush seems hell bent on "dealing" with them, the rcs of the fb-23 be less than the FA22?

From what I gather, the -23 was more stealthy than the -22, however, concerns over its manouverability meant the -22 was chosen instead, so a F/B-23 should be stealthier (and thus harder to catch) than a F/A-22, but would be deeper in the brown stuff if it was caught.