American Albert Pike: Hero, or Villain?

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Was Pike a Confederate Military leader? If so, how is that possible if he was anti slavery, which was what I have always thought was a major reason for the war?

Although slavery is the prima facie reason behind the Civil War, the situation was in fact far more complex than that. There were several States in the North, for example, where slavery was legal.

IMO the secession of the Confederacy was far more to do with not wanting to be told what to do rather than slavery. In many ways the quest for freedom and independence that took the US away from Great Britain and Texas away from Mexico was being played out again in a different way.

So I think there were many Confederates who had mixed views about slavery but were highly patriotic and stood together on the issue against outsiders. This is no doubt the same 'forged in fire' patriotism that still exists today and has made the US probably the most patriotic country in the world.

However I sense myself sliding off topic ...

ok so is he or isnt he a founder of KKK?

thats all i want to know. His true agenda mightve been setting up a racial divide between whites and the rest, so theyre all more controlable and dont see their real masters....maybe he was playing both sides.......divide and conquer

Since masons claim he was friendly with natives and a whole lot of people claim he was KKK, perhaps there is truth to both stories.....somehow this doesnt seem impossible to me.

"just my 2 cents"

nukunuku

I think you're going to have to draw your own conclusions to this, as there will not be definitive proof one way or the other. I think the balance of probability is that he was not a member, but then I would say that, wouldn't I?

Originally posted by nukunuku
ok so is he or isnt he a founder of KKK?

thats all i want to know. His true agenda mightve been setting up a racial divide between whites and the rest, so theyre all more controlable and dont see their real masters....maybe he was playing both sides.......divide and conquer

Since masons claim he was friendly with natives and a whole lot of people claim he was KKK, perhaps there is truth to both stories.....somehow this doesnt seem impossible to me.

"just my 2 cents"

Until we know everything, life will always be `as far as we know`. i can easily appliy that thinking to your knowing of all freemasons. There is all of that hidden esoteric stuff for most here yet to know. But more importantly, what would blacks have done to the present NWO arrangements if the KKK were never there? Hence his reasoning.

[edit on 21-10-2005 by WaterDragonZeul]

Originally posted by Trinityman
nukunuku

I think you're going to have to draw your own conclusions to this, as there will not be definitive proof one way or the other. I think the balance of probability is that he was not a member, but then I would say that, wouldn't I?

hehe Trinityman, you sure would
in fact, its the only thing i can count on

So I think there were many Confederates who had mixed views about slavery but were highly patriotic and stood together on the issue against outsiders. This is no doubt the same 'forged in fire' patriotism that still exists today and has made the US probably the most patriotic country in the world
trinityman

Most patriotic or most self-assured. The US is certainly very proud, and with many good reasons to be. But is it too proud? I sense a 'my country right or wrong' attitude in many patriots. How does one measure patriotism? The US did not have Kamikaze pilots in WWII, willing to knowingly commit suicide for their nation. There is a fine line between patriotism, nationalism, and vanity. Where does one draw the line?

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Where does one draw the line?

I would say when it starts to become counter-productive. Intense patriotism can lead to a loss of objectivity. None of this is a problem if you are the most powerful country in the world, but it might if you aren't, or if you are the 'rest of the world'.

Nice post, BTW.

[edit on 23-10-2005 by Trinityman]

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Where does one draw the line?

I would say when it starts to become counter-productive. Intense patriotism can lead to a loss of objectivity. None of this is a problem if you are the most powerful country in the world, but it might if you aren't, or if you are the 'rest of the world'.

Nice post, BTW.

[edit on 23-10-2005 by Trinityman]

Thanks for the compliment, I appreciate it, especially coming from a member whose posts I find informative and fair.
Still, I must say I cannot agree as per patriotism not being a problem if you are the big boy on the block. Someday the tables will turn, not if, but when, they do, the attitudes, statements, and actions made while your supremacy was unchallenged will become fuel for those who might seek to harm you. Once you are vulnerable, your chances of facing reprisals are increased by how 'patriotic' you were when you were number one.
If you showed respect, and treated others as equals. dealing fairly with them, there is much less chance for harm coming to you after you are no longer untouchable.

Rather than talk about the past, let's talk about Masonry today.

I've resigned my office in my Lodge because of a comment made by our secretary that a black candidate would be more comfortable in a Prince Hall Lodge.

From what I've seen, Masonry these days is more about collecting degrees and pins than about the advancement of mankind.

Anyone out there listening, believe that there are still those of us that still can think for ourselves and won't blindly follow what we're told.



[edit on 1/7/2006 by tylerdjp]

[edit on 1/7/2006 by tylerdjp]

Too often that type of behaviour goes on and no one does anything. I am glad to hear you did something. My dad did not join cuz he is an atheist. Our family has a long history of Freemasonary on his side, but he wouldn't go along with the suggestion his friends offered, that he just say he believed so he could join. That made no sense to him, nor to me. I have nothing against the order, I just don't feel the urge to sign up.
As Groucho Marx said, 'I wouldn't join any club that would have someone like me as a member.'

It's time for the free thinkers to stop going along with the Grandmasters and to say
" No that's not right" and make some changes in our own minds if not in Grand Lodge and show a little backbone for a change.

And if they don't like it T.S.

Let's see if they send our dues back.

(bet they won't)

[edit on 1/7/2006 by tylerdjp]

[edit on 1/7/2006 by tylerdjp]

Albert Pike was a Brigadier General in the COnfederate army during the War Between the States.
He led a brigade of Commanches who nearly routed half the Federal army in the battle of Pea Ridge in Arkansas (March 7-8 1862) (Pike served in the division led by Benjamin McCulloch who was killed during the battle)
He continued to lead native American forces for the SOuthern Confederacy throughout the war. And if memeory serves me correctly he was part of the LAST Confederate surrender in Oklahoma under Major General Stand Watie a Native American Confederate General.

Although we've been fed in high school and in college that the war was fought over slavery...it wasn't.
In a speech made at Cooper Union Penn. Abe Lincoln was asked during the q/a session afterward if he had any intentions on freeing the slaves. Knowing his audience he responded that the black race would never be the equal of the white race. (The exact quote is in the book "The REal Lincoln, which is buried somewhere in my basement among my thousands of books on the civil war.)
The South seceeded due to grossly unfair tax laws. With only 25% of the nations populace they were paying an ungodly 79% of the nations tarrif taxes!

Many Southerners were pro-abolitionists. Among them Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Joseph E. Johnston, J.E.B. Stuart, Patrick Cleburne, Leonidas Polk, ALBERT PIKE....
The abolitionist movement actually got its start in the SOuth with the Southern Womens Christian Association in the 1830's.

Not all slave owners were white, there were black, Jewish, latino and Native American slave owners.
Not all Rebel soldiers were white. Jews, blacks, latinos, Native Americans and even Chinese immigrants VOLUNTARILY joined the Confederate army.
(In Franklin Tennessee is a Confederate cemetary. In I beleive the thirsd row is a tombstone that reads: Sergeant Charles Chong, 50th Tennessee Volunteer Infantry, Killed in Action, Franklin Tennessee, November 30th 1864)

Okay, I know that was way off topic, but I couldn't help but notice some peoples not knowing what Pike did for the South and the reasons for the war in general. Moderators, please don't kill me.

[edit on 29-1-2006 by SpecAgentDW]

Originally posted by tylerdjp
Rather than talk about the past, let's talk about Masonry today.

I've resigned my office in my Lodge because of a comment made by our secretary that a black candidate would be more comfortable in a Prince Hall Lodge.

From what I've seen, Masonry these days is more about collecting degrees and pins than about the advancement of mankind.

Anyone out there listening, believe that there are still those of us that still can think for ourselves and won't blindly follow what we're told.

Whilst I admire your stance against what is obviously a racist attitude, I'd encourage you not to judge the whole of Freemasonry by this nasty experience in one Lodge.

What if humankind itself were to be judged by one bad example?

Freemasonry, as a human institution, is prone to flaws just the same as every human member is.

Our Lodge has a Jewish Chaplain, English Catholic Master, and Arab Muslim Senior Warden, and I've never seen a better example of wisdom and compassion than when those three men sit down at a table together to thrash out fundraising issues.

Your story is a sad one, but not typical of Freemasonry in my country. The exact opposite, in fact. Perhaps it has more to do with the secular history of your country itself, and a laxness in condemning historical national prejudices in the Lodgeroom for fear of "stepping on toes".

'Our Lodge has a Jewish Chaplain, English Catholic Master, and Arab Muslim Senior Warden, and I've never seen a better example of wisdom and compassion than when those three men sit down at a table together to thrash out fundraising issues.' Roark

Wow. That is about the only thing I have read that makes me see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks for sharing that. Now, if we could just give that kind of attitude enough press to make others choose to act likewise, we might have a chance of a future.

SpecAgentDW:

Interesting, wasn't aware of his specific actions in the civil war.

I find it odd that Pike, who clearly was a supporter of the confederacy, doesn't get much involved in any sort of post-war revolution. Reading the early parts of Morals and Dogma, you half expect him to say 'And god-durnit I'm glad that tyrant lincoln is dead, down with the feds, up with the people'

I'd almost expect that the federals would've gotten wind of Morals and Dogma, looked over at italy and Garibaldi, and promptly arrested old Pike!

[edit on 30-1-2006 by Nygdan]

I'm not up to speed on what pike did after the war, but I do know that many Confederates fled to Brazil and Mexico.
There is a colony in Brazil that still exists (Wish I could find the name, but I read about it a year ago in natl. Geographic) of all whites who were ex-Confederates.
I guess they couldn't stand to live in a country where Federalism and big governemnt replaced the Jeffersonian ideals of early America.

Originally posted by SpecAgentDW
The South seceeded due to grossly unfair tax laws. With only 25% of the nations populace they were paying an ungodly 79% of the nations tarrif taxes!

Many Southerners were pro-abolitionists. Among them Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Joseph E. Johnston, J.E.B. Stuart, Patrick Cleburne, Leonidas Polk, ALBERT PIKE....
The abolitionist movement actually got its start in the SOuth with the Southern Womens Christian Association in the 1830's.

Not all slave owners were white, there were black, Jewish, latino and Native American slave owners.
Not all Rebel soldiers were white. Jews, blacks, latinos, Native Americans and even Chinese immigrants VOLUNTARILY joined the Confederate army.[edit on 29-1-2006 by SpecAgentDW]

That is quite a different story than I have ever heard. It is all possible, of course, but the years since then show me that the south has not been overly welcoming to the black man. Golf and country clubs are a good example. Were the vast majority of slave owners white? Why would I care if some non-whites also owned slaves if the vast majority were whites? Does that matter somehow? Albert Pike is certainly as enigmatic and controversial as they come. Revered by many as a wise leader, and despised by just as many as an actively involved hate-mongering racist/supremist bigot.
It is hard, though, for me to accept that the south was somehow a leader and supporter in the emancipation of the slaves in America. For many years all of America was guilty, of course.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Albert Pike is certainly as enigmatic and controversial as they come. Revered by many as a wise leader, and despised by just as many as an actively involved hate-mongering racist/supremist bigot.

The problem of course is that Albert Pike was never "hate-mongering". As most white men of his era, he believed that whites were intellectually superior to non-whites. This belief, although erroneous, had nothing to do with hate, it was just the way that white men saw the world in those days. I don't think that anyone who has actually read Pike's works could ever call him a "hate mongerer".

Regardless, it was General Pike who stood on the floor of the Conferderate Senate and read his committee's recommendation that slavery be abolished gradually over the course of 25 years. Pike explains his reasons in his "Letters To The Northern States".

[edit on 19-11-2007 by Masonic Light]