How do you know the human soul exists?

Originally posted by spamandham
What makes you believe such senses exist?

I have used 5th dimensional sensory perception during obes.

Can we now use the definition I posted?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

Originally posted by spamandham
What makes you believe such senses exist?

I have used 5th dimensional sensory perception during obes.

Can we now use the definition I posted?

You can use it if you feel that such perceptions actually exist in the 5th dimension since you at least have a consistent definition, although I don't know how you can conclude OBEs involve extra dimensions.

Originally posted by spamandham
You can use it if you feel that such perceptions actually exist in the 5th dimension since you at least have a consistent definition, although I don't know how you can conclude OBEs involve extra dimensions.

When we are in an obe we cannot be seen by people in the physical. This has led me to believe that since we have a body, and we are undetectable by physical sensory perception, obes happen in another dimension...

How would you define soul?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
When we are in an obe we cannot be seen by people in the physical. This has led me to believe that since we have a body, and we are undetectable by physical sensory perception, obes happen in another dimension...

What makes you think they are not simply happening in your mind?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
How would you define soul?

I don't see any distinction between soul and consciousness.

Originally posted by spamandham
What makes you think they are not simply happening in your mind?

The objectivity of such experiences. Talking with a friend during the obe, and the next day confirming that he too was there...

I don't see any distinction between soul and consciousness.

The soul is a material thing. It has mass, and is not permanent. Consciousness has no mass, and is permanent.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
The objectivity of such experiences. Talking with a friend during the obe, and the next day confirming that he too was there...

Do you know for certain that these OBEs were happening at the same time?

Presuming you and your friend did communicate in a shared OBE, how do you know this experience did not simply happen in your minds via an undiscovered communication mechanism?

Have you ever tried a documented experiment where you write down all the details you can about an OBE immediately after it happens (is induced?), and then study the notes later on to see if there's actually anything in the notes you could not have realistically simply just imagined?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
The soul is a material thing. It has mass,

How much mass?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Consciousness has no mass, and is permanent.

Do you lose consciousness when you sleep? In what sense is it permanent?

Originally posted by spamandham
Do you know for certain that these OBEs were happening at the same time?

It is not possible to record the times that these obe's happen due to the nature of them. I have obe, then drift back into a state of imagery, also called dreaming.

Presuming you and your friend did communicate in a shared OBE, how do you know this experience did not simply happen in your minds via an undiscovered communication mechanism?

I don't but, could this undiscovered communication mechanism have to due with a body (or soul) existing...

Have you ever tried a documented experiment where you write down all the details you can about an OBE immediately after it happens (is induced?), and then study the notes later on to see if there's actually anything in the notes you could not have realistically simply just imagined?

First of all it is important to note that astral projections (or obes) happen in the same dimension as dreams do. Any thought can immediately subconsciuously transform matter in this dimension (the 5th). Parts of the obe could very well have been made with the mind, however the reason that I know not all of it is, therefore indicating an objectivity to this experience, is that you can objectively interact in the dimension in such a way that it cannot be solely created in your mind.

These objective experiences include talking to a friend, and then confirming it the next day; going to a place you've never been before, and later on going there and seeing it looked exactly as it did in the obe, etc...

How much mass?

How can I possibly know this?

Do you lose consciousness when you sleep? In what sense is it permanent?

You do not lose consciousness when you sleep. What happens is that your consciousness is transferred from the physical body, and into the astral body. It is permanent in a sense that it will never cease to exist...

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
These objective experiences include talking to a friend, and then confirming it the next day; going to a place you've never been before, and later on going there and seeing it looked exactly as it did in the obe, etc...

This isn't sufficient evidence, because you could simply be experiencing false memories - a well documented phenomenon. This is why it would be important to document the experience immediately as soon as possible with as much detail as you can, including rough sketches if possible.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
You do not lose consciousness when you sleep. What happens is that your consciousness is transferred from the physical body, and into the astral body. It is permanent in a sense that it will never cease to exist...

There are times during sleep when you are not even dreaming. Where is the consciousness at those times, if dreams are really just your memories from your consciousness in another domension? Further, how is it that we can measure dream states in the brain if a dream is happening in another dimension?

Originally posted by spamandham
This isn't sufficient evidence, because you could simply be experiencing false memories - a well documented phenomenon. This is why it would be important to document the experience immediately as soon as possible with as much detail as you can, including rough sketches if possible.

I am 100% sure that during obes I am in another dimension, not a mind-made reality. Therefore, documenting my experiences would serve no purpose to me, so it can only serve those who question the reality of obes. Yet even if I show you a well documented obe, such as first I did this, then I did that, after I saw this, this would still not be enough proof to most skeptics...

There are times during sleep when you are not even dreaming. Where is the consciousness at those times, if dreams are really just your memories from your consciousness in another domension? Further, how is it that we can measure dream states in the brain if a dream is happening in another dimension?

You bring up two very interesting points. I will discuss the second one first for a smooth transition.

During our sleep scientists can detect parts of the brain that are thought to be in use creating dreams. There is something called the silver chord, that connects your physical and astral body; it is used so that the astral body can always come back quickly to the physical, and also as a message cable, allowing messages to be sent from the astral body to the physical and vice versa. These "dream states" can just as easily be the continious flow of information from the astral body into the physical.

It is thought that there are times during sleep where dreams do not occur. Yet this observation is not based on the observation of dreams, but the observation of the brain. As I said in my last paragraph, the astral body can send messages to the physical. The "lack of dreams" that scientests refer to can also be the lack of messages between the astral and physical body.

Why are there stages when the astral body is continiously sending information to the brain, and states where none is being sent? I do not know...

[edit on 29/9/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
I am 100% sure that during obes I am in another dimension, not a mind-made reality. Therefore, documenting my experiences would serve no purpose to me, so it can only serve those who question the reality of obes.

That certainly seems worthwhile to me. I see no difference between your 100% certainty and the 100% certainty of others who have perspectives inconsistent with yours. From my perspective, I dismiss them all not simply because they can't all be true, but because I have no reason to even suspect any of them might be true.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
It is thought that there are times during sleep where dreams do not occur. Yet this observation is not based on the observation of dreams, but the observation of the brain.

True, but these observations are becoming more compelling by the day. Even today we have new information regarding sleep and consciousness.

Sleep and Consciousness breaking news

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
As I said in my last paragraph, the astral body can send messages to the physical. The "lack of dreams" that scientests refer to can also be the lack of messages between the astral and physical body.

The other explanation is that consciousness and brain function are one in the same. During sleep, consciousness does in fact cease to exist, just as it ceases permanently at death. So far, I'm not seeing any reason to even suspect otherwise.

Originally posted by spamandham
That certainly seems worthwhile to me. I see no difference between your 100% certainty and the 100% certainty of others who have perspectives inconsistent with yours. From my perspective, I dismiss them all not simply because they can't all be true, but because I have no reason to even suspect any of them might be true.

Sorry, I still cannot see the use for recording my out of body experiences immediately upon their happening. I do not need proof, as I am already certain of what they are. Can you explain what purpose they would serve to others?

True, but these observations are becoming more compelling by the day. Even today we have new information regarding sleep and consciousness.

We shall await the day when these observations can show absolute proof...

The other explanation is that consciousness and brain function are one in the same. During sleep, consciousness does in fact cease to exist, just as it ceases permanently at death. So far, I'm not seeing any reason to even suspect otherwise.

Hmmm... lucid dreams (which I assume you accept) seem to require consciousness. After all when we are in a lucid dream, we can make choices, think, and create our own reality. How can someone possibly make a choice if their consciousness ceases to exist?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Sorry, I still cannot see the use for recording my out of body experiences immediately upon their happening. I do not need proof, as I am already certain of what they are. Can you explain what purpose they would serve to others?

They would give me (and other skeptical bastards like me) explicit amo to shoot down your claims. Isn't that worthwhile?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
We shall await the day when these observations can show absolute proof...

No observations can ever provide absolute proof. Why would that be the standard? Clearly that isn't the standard when the evidence seems to support your position, or have I missed something?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Hmmm... lucid dreams (which I assume you accept) seem to require consciousness. After all when we are in a lucid dream, we can make choices, think, and create our own reality. How can someone possibly make a choice if their consciousness ceases to exist?

I'm not talking about dreams, I'm refering to the time periods between dreams, when you are not awake and you are not dreaming. If you require a more direct experience of non-consciousness, it can be induced with drugs. If you've ever been paralyzed for surgery, you know what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by spamandham
They would give me (and other skeptical bastards like me) explicit amo to shoot down your claims. Isn't that worthwhile?

No text can make myself believe my experiences were mind-made...

No observations can ever provide absolute proof.

Exactly, no matter what scientific proof is found, it will still never be 100% true...

I'm not talking about dreams, I'm refering to the time periods between dreams, when you are not awake and you are not dreaming. If you require a more direct experience of non-consciousness, it can be induced with drugs. If you've ever been paralyzed for surgery, you know what I'm talking about.

You mean time periods between brain activity. When you are not awake, and have no brain activity. The reason that you might not remember dreams that happen during this period could be that since there are no messages being sent from the astral body to the physical, the dreams are not as easily remembered...

I have not been paralyzed for surgery, so I can't comment on that.

i havnt read this whole forum, but this is the way i see it..
the consciousness is created within the central nervous system. The way i gather this is through what appears logical to me... when the CNS becomes inactive, so do the consciousness.
I saw a documentary a while back, it was on some american guy that got shot in the head in vietnam war, piercing his skull and going into his brain. he survived.. but the bullet must of hit and damaged some critical region in the mans brains responsible for understanding and inturpting speech. The man was just like any other normal guy, he just couldnt understand what anyone was saying.. but the amazing part was that.. if the guy listened to a song, he could understand the lyrics as good as you or i could. you could assume that the region of the brain responsible for inturpting lyrics in music was still fine.
This to me gives me the impression that the consciousness is just a by-product of something materalistic, something biological.. the CNS.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
No text can make myself believe my experiences were mind-made...

Not even your own writing?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
You mean time periods between brain activity. When you are not awake, and have no brain activity. The reason that you might not remember dreams that happen during this period could be that since there are no messages being sent from the astral body to the physical, the dreams are not as easily remembered...

Why do you simply dismiss the obvious possibility that you simply have no consciousness during these periods? In fact there is brain activity during thee times as can be shown independently.

But suppose you're right, and there is an astral body out there that sends messages to your brain. If you are dependent on memory for identity, and the brain is the store of memory as you seem to be suggesting, how can you have any sense of identity once the brain and all its memories die?

Originally posted by cheeser
I saw a documentary a while back, it was on some american guy that got shot in the head in vietnam war, piercing his skull and going into his brain. he survived.. but the bullet must of hit and damaged some critical region in the mans brains responsible for understanding and inturpting speech. The man was just like any other normal guy, he just couldnt understand what anyone was saying..

It's amazing to me that people can convince themselves consciousness is outside the brain when there are so many cases such as this where people exhibit partial consciousness or loss of specific thinking abilities directly related to brain injuries. Everyone who believes in souls should study these cases.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

What do you mean by "natural" dimensions?

That which is potentially observed, or inferred from observation.

Curious.

And what of the things that are outside the realm of our conscious senses? Are they less "natural" because we the observers don't readily sense them?

Originally posted by spamandham
Not even your own writing?

Not even my own writing would change my views that were gained through experience. For all I know I could've written it during a hipnotic trance, at gunpoint, or while being posessed.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
You mean time periods between brain activity. When you are not awake, and have no brain activity. The reason that you might not remember dreams that happen during this period could be that since there are no messages being sent from the astral body to the physical, the dreams are not as easily remembered...

Originally posted by spamandham
Why do you simply dismiss the obvious possibility that you simply have no consciousness during these periods? In fact there is brain activity during thee times as can be shown independently.

Actually I did not dismiss anything, I simply provided an alternative reason (read bolded print above) for the lack of brain activity that occurs in cycles during sleep. It was actually you that dismissed my view when you said:

During sleep, consciousness does in fact cease to exist, just as it ceases permanently at death.

But suppose you're right, and there is an astral body out there that sends messages to your brain. If you are dependent on memory for identity, and the brain is the store of memory as you seem to be suggesting, how can you have any sense of identity once the brain and all its memories die?

I am not dependent on memory for identity. I am dependent on the NOW for identity.

It's amazing to me that people can convince themselves consciousness is outside the brain when there are so many cases such as this where people exhibit partial consciousness or loss of specific thinking abilities directly related to brain injuries. Everyone who believes in souls should study these cases.

First I want to make it clear that I do not hold the soul, and consciousness to be the same thing. As I have previously said consciousness is intangible, and eternal, while the soul, has mass, and can be detected.

I understand that all sensory perceptions, and motor and thinking skills are carried out through the brain. It is no surprise to me that people who have had brain injuries result with having partial loss of sensory perceptions, consciousness is the wrong word, since it cannot be measured. I would also assume they lose specific thinking activities since the brain is used to process thought....

[edit on 2/10/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Not even my own writing would change my views that were gained through experience. For all I know I could've written it during a hipnotic trance, at gunpoint, or while being posessed.

If that's the case, then how do you know your experiences are also not due to trance, or being posessed? It doesn't matter to me if you are too comfortable to challenge your beliefs. Seeking truth and seeking comfort are not always compatible.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Actually I did not dismiss anything, I simply provided an alternative reason (read bolded print above) for the lack of brain activity that occurs in cycles during sleep. It was actually you that dismissed my view when you said...

I do dismiss your view. There are perhaps a boundless number of alternative explanations, all no more grounded than any other. Just because it's possible to come up with alternatives doesn't mean such alternatives should be given serious consideration. There has to be a reason for considering such alternatives.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
while the soul, has mass, and can be detected.

How do you detect the soul? I asked you before how much mass a soul has, and you admitted you don't know. Can the amount of mass of the soul at least be bounded? Does this mass result in gravity?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
I understand that all sensory perceptions, and motor and thinking skills are carried out through the brain. It is no surprise to me that people who have had brain injuries result with having partial loss of sensory perceptions,

They don't just lose perception. They often lose specific thinking skills, or even their sense of identity altogether. Consciousness is not binary. There are degrees of consciousness.

Originally posted by spamandham
If that's the case, then how do you know your experiences are also not due to trance, or being posessed? It doesn't matter to me if you are too comfortable to challenge your beliefs. Seeking truth and seeking comfort are not always compatible.

I don't know that these experiences were not inserted into me during a trance or while being possessed, however I think that between hipnotizing someone to write something, or actually inserting a conscious experience into someone, the former is much easier, and out of the two, the one I won't believe.

I am comfortable challenging my beliefs. However rather than challenging them through experience, you are asking me to challenge them by studying and reading others' experiences, which is in no way a logical and concrete way of challenging one's beliefs.

I do dismiss your view. There are perhaps a boundless number of alternative explanations, all no more grounded than any other. Just because it's possible to come up with alternatives doesn't mean such alternatives should be given serious consideration. There has to be a reason for considering such alternatives.

This is fine, you can consider as you want, however in the future I'll appreciate it if you don't falsely accuse me of commiting actions, that have actually been commited by you.

How do you detect the soul? I asked you before how much mass a soul has, and you admitted you don't know.

I would assume that the mass is fairly equal to the mass of the physical body. However unless you suggest a scientifically accepted method of measuring the mass of the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th dimensional bodies, you will not get one.

Does this mass result in gravity?

No, gravity is not a force, and is created by the warping of time and space in the 4th dimension, so it is not present in the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th dimensions.

They don't just lose perception. They often lose specific thinking skills, or even their sense of identity altogether.

As I already said thought is processed through the brain, and it is logical that due to brain damage these thinking skills can also be lost. Sense of identity (as you are using it) is based on past and future. Since memory is also processed through the brain it would be logical to think that damage to the brain can damage the processing of memory, and cause the loss of identity.

Consciousness is not binary. There are degrees of consciousness.

To continue talking about "consciousness" we need a definition that can be agreed upon by both parties. Even if one doesn't believe in something, one must have a definition one can oppose. Until then any talk of consciousness is completely subjective, and can mean a world of difference depending on the interpreter.


[edit on 3/10/2005 by AkashicWanderer]