Masonry? - Let Us Search Deeper

Hi,

I'm new here and would like to put to rest several issues which have been bothering me regarding Masonry in general. Some concerns I have:

1) If Masonry is not a religion or faith or a spiritual truth and Masonry is simply a fraternity or brotherhood, then why do so many of the highest Masons like Manly P Hall and Albert Pike mention how Masonry is of the highest order of the mystery religions and say it goes back thousands of years? If Masonry is of the Mystery Religions, then is this not something good anyhow? So why then cannot Masons agree on this simple one issue? Do Masons agree on anything at all?

2) Assuming that Freemasons played such an important role in forming the United States of America, then why do most people not even know that most of the Presidents are Mason? Why do we not teach that brotherhood truism in every school, church, Mosque, Temple, Community Center etc? Why must we all come here to ATS, or see some weird symbols or have a friend tell us, before we can even see it at all? Where do you think I heard about Masonry? I heard about it from Conspiracy experts now if Masons don’t prefer that, why not advertise it better, eh? Why is it that to understand something called Masonry, we have to first see a temple with an eye on top, when Masonry should have had its place on our tables next to Coke and Pepsi and taught everywhere to everyone?

3) Why do we see Masonic symbols everywhere and yet no-one seems to even notice? Is it that they just don't get it (oh dear..... a pyramid), or is it that Masons assume people are too stupid to get it and we are in fact not supposed to get it? Which is it?

4) Why is that every time a conspiracy person researches a topic, the only guys who seem to jump on it first are the Masons? Why do Masons take it so personally when people try to expose evil and don’t you think that if a Christian, Muslim or Jew found out that illuminati used the church or Mosque or synagogue to spread their ranks, they would want to know and stop it? Did not John Roberson know much about Illuminati (first hand) yet how come the Mason websites try to destroy his character by using such petty and pathetic attempts to confuse the reader (who’s only trying to understand the truth of the matter) over semantics and assumptions and they somehow EVEN neglect the EXTREMELY important and DANGEROUS subject matter in which he spoke of? Why don’t Masons put Roberson’s statue next to Albert Pike, since it was Roberson himself who cared more about Masonry being ruined or infiltrated, then Pike ever did?

Something else I'd like to mention:

The stars of the Republican flag on the elephant in this website, are inverted. They made it so small its hard to see, at first. www.rnc.org... Only the large pictures show the stars right-side up, why?

Years ago, in the early 90's, I never saw the stars inverted. Is an inverted star a masonic symbol, like the one drawn out in the streets of Washington DC? If so, then how many Masons here beleive that it makes a difference whether it be upsidedown, or not?

[edit on 23-9-2005 by realrepublican]

Originally posted by realrepublican
Hi,

Hi

I'm new here

Welcome

and would like to put to rest several issues which have been bothering me regarding Masonry in general.

I'd be pleased to help if I can

Some concerns I have:

1) If Masonry is not a religion or faith or a spiritual truth and Masonry is simply a fraternity or brotherhood, then why do so many of the highest Masons like Manly P Hall and Albert Pike mention how Masonry is of the highest order of the mystery religions and say it goes back thousands of years?

Well, the problem is in the question itself. Very very few senior freemasons give their public opinion on such matters, in fact the only one I can think of (I'm sure there are others) is Pike himself, and he wasn't really a senior freemason, being the head of a side order and virtually unheard of outside of the US. Hall wrote his seminal work 'the lost keys of freemasonry' when he was 21 - 31 years before he became a freemason.

Many people have opinions about freemasonry, and there is a school of thought that tends toward the esoteric interpretation of the symbology of freemasony. But freemasonry itself tends to shy away from overly complex interpretations of its activities as it sees itself as fundamentally very simple and straightforward.

Most masonic scholars acknowledge that freemasonry evolved from operative stonemasons in the 15th - 17th centuries in Britain. The organisation took much from older organisations, but are not directly descended from them. Others disagree.

If Masonry is of the Mystery Religions, then is this not something good anyhow?

Masonry is not one of the mystery religions. It's not a religion... period.

So why then cannot Masons agree on this simple one issue?

Freemasons have as many opinions as freemasonry has members. As freemasonry is a personal journey for each individual then there are probably millions of different journeys within the Craft - each one subtly different.

Do Masons agree on anything at all?

It's funny you should ask this as the masons on ATS have recently been accused of all sounding the same and parrotting each other. Yes, masons agree on lots of stuff.

Assuming that Freemasons played such an important role in forming the United States of America, then why do most people not even know that most of the Presidents are Mason?

Because most of the presidents were NOT masons, that's why. Just 16.

Why do we not teach that brotherhood truism in every school, church, Mosque, Temple, Community Center etc?

The truths taught by freemasonry are not exclusive to freemasonry. You will find them in every school, church, mosque etc etc but they will not be called 'masonic'. They are Life Truths.

Why must we all come here to ATS, or see some weird symbols or have a friend tell us, before we can even see it at all?

No, there are other routes. In fact most people who know about freemasonry didn't learn it from ATS

Where do you think I heard about Masonry?

er... ATS?

I heard about it from Conspiracy experts now if Masons don’t prefer that, why not advertise it better, eh? Why is it that to understand something called Masonry, we have to first see a temple with an eye on top, when Masonry should have had its place on our tables next to Coke and Pepsi and taught everywhere to everyone?

No - I don't agree that ubiquity is the answer for freemasonry. Exclusivity has served it better over the centuries.

Why do we see Masonic symbols everywhere and yet no-one seems to even notice?

I'm not sure what you mean. Masonic symbols are specific and IMO not widespread at all (e.g. Square and Compass). There is a wider range of imagery used by freemasonry, but not exclusively by freemasonry (e.g. triangle, star of david, all seeing eye) which in the wider world could mean many things.

Is it that they just don't get it (oh dear..... a pyramid), or is it that Masons assume people are too stupid to get it and we are in fact not supposed to get it? Which is it?

Neither. I doubt the symbols are masonic in the first place. The pyramid, for example, is not a masonic symbol.

Why is that every time a conspiracy person researches a topic, the only guys who seem to jump on it first are the Masons?

Now I feel bad. Should I have waited for non-masons to post first?

Why do Masons take it so personally when people try to expose evil and don’t you think that if a Christian, Muslim or Jew found out that illuminati used the church or Mosque or synagogue to spread their ranks, they would want to know and stop it?

There is no evil in freemasonry. We are trying to stop people wasting their time on this by putting them straight.

Did not John Roberson... [snip]

Who is, or was, John Roberson? I have personally never heard of him.

Originally posted by realrepublican
The stars of the Republican flag on the elephant in this website, are inverted. They made it so small its hard to see, at first. www.rnc.org... Only the large pictures show the stars right-side up, why?

No idea. You might want to take that up with the Republicans.

Years ago, in the early 90's, I never saw the stars inverted. Is an inverted star a masonic symbol, like the one drawn out in the streets of Washington DC?

The (five pointed) star, inverted or otherwise, is not a masonic symbol. However it is such a common image it's quite possible that it is used in freemasonry somewhere. Incidentally, there is a US organisation called Order of the Eastern Star which utilises the the star symbol (upside down actually) - this is an organisation for women (wives of freemasons I think) but it is not a masonic organisation. It does not exist in my jurisdiction.

Well, the problem is in the question itself. Very few senior freemasons give their public opinion on such matters, in fact the only one I can think of (I'm sure there are others) is Pike himself, and he wasn't really a senior freemason, being the head of a side order and virtually unheard of outside of the US. Hall wrote his seminal work 'the lost keys of freemasonry' when he was 21 - 31 years before he became a freemason.

Have you read any of Manly P. Hall’s work? He was considered by the Scottish rite magazine to be one of Masonry’s Greatest Philosophers of the century. I find it strange that you do not hold him (in authority) as I do; he was a brilliant Mason, in my opinion.

As for Albert Pike, his bones are interred at the Great Temple Lodge in Washington DC. He seems to be much more than a Confederate, since his bones are not buried in the same graveyard as the majority of the Confederate hero’s. You mentioned that Pike was head of a side order or Freemasonry. What was this side order and why is it accepted by the Great Temple Lodge in Washington DC, where is his bones are kept?

So you do not accept these men as true examples of Freemasonry – that is fine. Who then do you consider to be of an example for Masonry? Do I have to join a special type of lodge to understand?

Many people have opinions about freemasonry, and there is a school of thought that tends toward the esoteric interpretation of the symbology of freemasony. But freemasonry itself tends to shy away from overly complex interpretations of its activities as it sees itself as fundamentally very simple and straightforward.

Again this may satisfy those people looking for something very simple and straightforward but I have accepted the view that Masonry is nothing less than those descendants of Mysteries. I see Masonry as the vessel which preserved and protected many of the ancient teachings, from at times, the lunacy of Christendom and thus, eventually those teachings will now come to light in a new world of acceptance. I see this as a follow-through of our founding fathers.

Most Masonic scholars acknowledge that freemasonry evolved from operative stonemasons in the 15th - 17th centuries in Britain. The organization took much from older organisations, but are not directly descended from them. Others disagree.

Why is there an Egyptian pyramid on the back of dollar? Who put it there? You realize that if it was not Jefferson’s idea than the Conspiracy folks will be even more concerned that an international banker, share holder of the Federal Reserve would want to put that thing on his dollar bill. Personally, I’d rather it not turn out to be Weishaupt’s symbol but you say there is no connection to the mysteries, so we are left to ponder I suppose.

Masonry is not one of the mystery religions. It's not a religion... period.

Neither is Christianity a religion - it became one later on.

What about a system of truth? Religion came after to help bring back those to the spirit soul-ego, after they had gone astray into matter. The Atlantian’s never brought religion until much later on, so could Masonry may be a descending truth brought down from the Children of the Law of One?

Freemasons have as many opinions as freemasonry has members. As freemasonry is a personal journey for each individual then there are probably millions of different journeys within the Craft - each one subtly different.

That is a good thing but this journey takes you where exactly? What is a Masons’ relationship to God and spiritual growth?

Because most of the presidents were NOT masons, that's why. Just 16.

George Washington and other Masons were founding fathers, correct? Washington DC is laid out in Masonic symbolism. Why is this not taught to every child who pledges allegiance to the flag?

The truths taught by freemasonry are not exclusive to freemasonry. You will find them in every school, church, mosque etc but they will not be called 'Masonic'. They are Life Truths.

Was not the early church opposed to these life truths? I think they were and that was due to the churches corruption but these life truths seem to stem from ancient teachings, correct?

No, there are other routes. In fact most people who know about freemasonry didn't learn it from ATS

No - I don't agree that ubiquity is the answer for freemasonry. Exclusivity has served it better over the centuries.

I'm not sure what you mean. Masonic symbols are specific and IMO not widespread at all (e.g. Square and Compass). There is a wider range of imagery used by freemasonry, but not exclusively by freemasonry (e.g. triangle, star of david, all seeing eye) which in the wider world could mean many things.

If I walk outside in a western city and ask any 10 people randomly if they have heard about Freemasonry/Mason, most of them would say “what’s that?” The others, who do know, would still not know what it means to be a freemason. Now that’s strange but even more strange is how Masons themselves seem to not know what it means to be a Freemason!! If I go tell the average Joe that G. W. Bush is a Mason, they wouldn’t even believe me! What does that tell you? Masons like to remain hidden from public view and that tells me that they have something to hide. Even if it’s something innocent, it bothers me a lot.

Neither. I doubt the symbols are Masonic in the first place. The pyramid, for example, is not a Masonic symbol.

It’s not a Masonic symbol? I wonder why is it on our dollar bill? I think Masons and non-Masons should get together and demand that they remove that pyramid from the dollar then.

There is no evil in freemasonry. We are trying to stop people wasting their time on this by putting them straight.

I agree and I do not think that Masonry was originally from those Belialian in nature but why are they rarely mentioned on the mainstream news? If they want to help all these misguided souls, why wait until Alex Jones or the like, has caught them on camera – so to speak? Does that make it any easy to clarify things?

Who is, or was, John Roberson? I have personally never heard of him.

I was referring to John Robison, sorry about that. But he is not liked by Masons, because Masons don't want to accept that masonry was and could even still be used as a meeting place to hide a conspiracy against religion and organized government.


[edit on 24-9-2005 by realrepublican]

[edit on 24-9-2005 by realrepublican]

No idea. You might want to take that up with the Republicans.

Just curious since I’ve studied esoteric teachings for some time and I am concerned about its meaning; aren’t you?

The (five pointed) star, inverted or otherwise, is not a masonic symbol. However it is such a common image it's quite possible that it is used in freemasonry somewhere. Incidentally, there is a US organization called Order of the Eastern Star which utilizes the the star symbol (upside down actually) - this is an organisation for women (wives of freemasons I think) but it is not a masonic organisation. It does not exist in my jurisdiction.

They might use it? I can accept that but for some clarity here: an upside down pentagram is an inversion by default; the very essence is by design just one of many principles used for black magic.

Wives of freemasons are not a Masonic organization? Is that a another side organisation? For example, like one that Albert Pike might have have joined for men?

Originally posted by realrepublican
Have you read any of Manly P. Hall’s work? He was considered by the Scottish rite magazine to be one of Masonry’s Greatest Philosophers of the century. I find it strange that you do not hold him (in authority) as I do; he was a brilliant Mason, in my opinion.

Yes, he is well respected. I didn't say otherwise. But to suggest that he is speaking on behalf of freemasony is quite wrong.

As for Albert Pike, his bones are interred at the Great Temple Lodge in Washington DC. He seems to be much more than a Confederate, since his bones are not buried in the same graveyard as the majority of the Confederate hero’s. You mentioned that Pike was head of a side order or Freemasonry. What was this side order and why is it accepted by the Great Temple Lodge in Washington DC, where is his bones are kept?

Albert Pike was Grand Commander of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite, an appendant body to freemasonry. It issues degrees beyond Craft masonry, up to 33 degrees in fact, and is often thought of by non-masons as 'higher' than Craft freemasonry, which it is not. The Scottish Rite is extremely popular in the US and I suspect this is one of the reasons why Pike is so honored in the US. A remarkable man indeed.

So you do not accept these men as true examples of Freemasonry – that is fine. Who then do you consider to be of an example for Masonry? Do I have to join a special type of lodge to understand?

Where did I say this? You will find I did not. I think you are having trouble understanding me. There is nothing wrong with Pike and/or Hall. From all accounts they were both good freemasons and good men.

I see Masonry as the vessel which preserved and protected many of the ancient teachings, from at times, the lunacy of Christendom and thus, eventually those teachings will now come to light in a new world of acceptance. I see this as a follow-through of our founding fathers.

I am delighted for you, there is much of the ancient mysteries to be found in freemasonry. I respect both your opinion and your right to hold it. However as freemasonry is a strong supporter of religion and spirituality I think your view is misguided.

Why is there an Egyptian pyramid on the back of dollar? Who put it there? You realize that if it was not Jefferson’s idea than the Conspiracy folks will be even more concerned that an international banker, share holder of the Federal Reserve would want to put that thing on his dollar bill. Personally, I’d rather it not turn out to be Weishaupt’s symbol but you say there is no connection to the mysteries, so we are left to ponder I suppose.

I'm not sure what the connection is with the pyramid. I don't know why it's on the back of the dollar bill but I'm sure it's there for a reason. Please note that I didn't say a pyramid has no connection to the ancient mysteries, I said it wasn't a masonic symbol. Which it isn't.

That is a good thing but this journey takes you where exactly? What is a Masons’ relationship to God and spiritual growth?

The journey is personal, as is the relationship. It will vary from person to person.

If I walk outside in a western city and ask any 10 people randomly if they have heard about Freemasonry/Mason, most of them would say “what’s that?” The others, who do know, would still not know what it means to be a freemason. Now that’s strange but even more strange is how Masons themselves seem to not know what it means to be a Freemason!! If I go tell the average Joe that G. W. Bush is a Mason, they wouldn’t even believe me! What does that tell you? Masons like to remain hidden from public view and that tells me that they have something to hide. Even if it’s something innocent, it bothers me a lot.

Sorry to hear that, but until privacy is outlawed individuals will continue to chose to undertake some activities in private. IMO that's not abnormal or cause for concern. It's the people who do private activities in public that you need to look out for

Incidentally, GWB isn't a freemason. So average Joe would be right not to believe you. No disrespect, but you seem to have a number of things wrong.

It’s not a Masonic symbol? I wonder why is it on our dollar bill? I think Masons and non-Masons should get together and demand that they remove that pyramid from the dollar then.

Why would I want it removed? What's it to me? Do you think only masonic symbols should be on the dollar bill? How about a nice Square and Compass or a plumb line. That would really give the conspiracists something to talk about!!

Originally posted by realrepublican

No idea. You might want to take that up with the Republicans.

Just curious since I’ve studied esoteric teachings for some time and I am concerned about its meaning; aren’t you?

Not really. Why do you think I should be?

The (five pointed) star, inverted or otherwise, is not a masonic symbol. However it is such a common image it's quite possible that it is used in freemasonry somewhere. Incidentally, there is a US organization called Order of the Eastern Star which utilizes the the star symbol (upside down actually) - this is an organisation for women (wives of freemasons I think) but it is not a masonic organisation. It does not exist in my jurisdiction.

They might use it? I can accept that but for some clarity here: an upside down pentagram is an inversion by default; the very essence is by design just one of many principles used for black magic.

Wives of freemasons are not a Masonic organization? Is that a another side organisation? For example, like one that Albert Pike might have have joined for men?

No, the OED is not freemasonry, but in the US it is regarded as part of the masonic family, as is IOJD and DeMolay.

You can learn more about these sorts of organisations
here, but remember this only applies to the US. Freemasonry is structured entirely differently in other parts of the world.

If a person has secrets why can't a group? Why does it have to a negative?

If Freemason's said yes we are a religon would it change anything? Or just create debate if its proper?

If you did research you would see what the secrets were and are and why. In the early times a lot of things were not accepted in society. Same thing goes now I see many beliefs of masons and my own that would not be understood or accepted by many people. Yes these are my secrets and I wouldn't discuss them here cause my beliefs are not for public debate or questioning sorry.

"Masons assume people are too stupid to get it"
Most people are to stupid to get it sorry. I have knew of masons since I was a child yet if I looked into it a few years ago I would be to stupid to get it or want to be part of it. So why would you teach something to people that are not ready for it yet. Its not like its math. I strongly feel when someone is ready and wanting for something they will seek it.

These are just my opinions I hope I don't come off as rude. I have a great sense of passion for masonry as many others do that may jump when people put it down/questioned but it is to be viewed as if I put down your wife or questioned her motives in life. Who am I to question her? Its easy to take offense when it seems like someone is putting down or questioning something one loves with an approach that may appear to have negative tones.

Originally posted by realrepublican

*snip*

Why is there an Egyptian pyramid on the back of dollar? Who put it there? You realize that if it was not Jefferson’s idea than the Conspiracy folks will be even more concerned that an international banker, share holder of the Federal Reserve would want to put that thing on his dollar bill. Personally, I’d rather it not turn out to be Weishaupt’s symbol but you say there is no connection to the mysteries, so we are left to ponder I suppose.

*snip some-more*

Well as all good researchers should do....let's go to the source and see what they have to say.....

www.treas.gov...

bensguide.gpo.gov...

www.state.gov...

This should give you great insight on how those symbols came about and what they represent on the one dollar bill....

Seach ATS and read the many threads on this subject alone...

Yes, he is well respected. I didn't say otherwise. But to suggest that he is speaking on behalf of freemasony is quite wrong.

Yes, so you believe that Manly P. Hall is not a good example to follow or research, for the layman who really wants to understand more about true Masonry, correct? Once again can you tell me who might present Masonry; to the educated or uneducated layman, showing it as an authentic representation in nature?

Albert Pike was Grand Commander of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite, an appendant body to freemasonry. It issues degrees beyond Craft masonry, up to 33 degrees in fact, and is often thought of by non-masons as 'higher' than Craft freemasonry, which it is not. The Scottish Rite is extremely popular in the US and I suspect this is one of the reasons why Pike is so honored in the US. A remarkable man indeed.

So Albert pike, who’s book “Morals and Dogma” was given out to many of the lodges up until 1974, who is extremely popular in the US, is not a Craft Freemason, is that what your saying? So if he is not a craft Freemason and the founding fathers were, then why is his name used, for example, to promote what being a good Mason is all about? Are you saying that the Majority of Masonic websites do not present Albert Pike as a true craft Mason?

Where did I say this? You will find I did not. I think you are having trouble understanding me. There is nothing wrong with Pike and/or Hall. From all accounts they were both good freemasons and good men.

Unless you can produce a more reliable source of information, I shall assume that these men are but just some who speak in great detail about true craft Freemasonry. Whatever side order they are from means little to me, since I have no standard to go on. What is the Gold standard of Craft Masonry?

I am delighted for you, there is much of the ancient mysteries to be found in freemasonry. I respect both your opinion and your right to hold it. However as freemasonry is a strong supporter of religion and spirituality I think your view is misguided.

Religion and spirituality is a way of living that if understood and acted upon correctly, less is the religion and more the spirituality. Spirituality does not need any support from Masonry or anything else for that matter!

I'm not sure what the connection is with the pyramid. I don't know why it's on the back of the dollar bill but I'm sure it's there for a reason. Please note that I didn't say a pyramid has no connection to the ancient mysteries, I said it wasn't a masonic symbol. Which it isn't.

Once again, it depends on what you consider is true Freemasonry, rite? If the USA government seems to accept and push the creepier version of it, then every Mason should be very concerned that they are getting mixed up in so much confusion. I do not see the kind of progressive engagement from Masons that I would expect from an organization that did not want to be part of the Scottish rite, or another non-craft entity. Masons partake in the fruits of all and yet deny accountability. How can you have it both ways?

Sorry to hear that, but until privacy is outlawed individuals will continue to chose to undertake some activities in private. IMO that's not abnormal or cause for concern. It's the people who do private activities in public that you need to look out for

Incidentally, GWB isn't a freemason. So average Joe would be right not to believe you. No disrespect, but you seem to have a number of things wrong.

Are you suggesting that G. W. Bush, along with many of the ruling class, are not craft Masons, or any other type of Mason? My conclusions are based upon Masonry in general, not just the type of craft you think is correct.

Why would I want it removed? What's it to me? Do you think only masonic symbols should be on the dollar bill? How about a nice Square and Compass or a plumb line. That would really give the conspiracists something to talk about!!

They are Masonic symbols actually; as are the compass and pentagram, which are designed in the streets of Washington DC, Masonic

Not really. Why do you think I should be?

Regarding the inverted pentagram on the Republican logo, yes I do think you should be concerned. Not that I’m telling you what to think but I assume you are a decent fellow and thus assume you would be concerned that a political party wished to insult the intelligence of those who see it as a great sign of pride, pompousness and disrespect! That is not an accident and I know all too well the meaning of subliminal messages.

No, the OED is not freemasonry, but in the US it is regarded as part of the masonic family, as is IOJD and DeMolay.

Rite! So the US government says one thing and you say another. Honestly, I’d rather trust you much more then I do them but even still, how come Masons don’t complain about being all mixed up with these rather creepy? Be honest about this now, silence is golden, no?

You can learn more about these sorts of organisations
here, but remember this only applies to the US. Freemasonry is structured entirely differently in other parts of the world.

Or we can go and see it on the dollar bill also. Same difference to me – they are all somehow posers of something else which we may never know. But you say that masonry has nothing to do with the Mysteries.

The official government explanation says that the great Seal showing the Pyramid has something to do with Divine Providence during the USA’s formation. So who were these founders? They were mostly Masons correct? Are we to assume that symbolism is not at all Masonic?

If a person has secrets why can't a group? Why does it have to a negative?

If Freemason's said yes we are a religon would it change anything? Or just create debate if its proper?

If you did research you would see what the secrets were and are and why. In the early times a lot of things were not accepted in society. Same thing goes now I see many beliefs of masons and my own that would not be understood or accepted by many people. Yes these are my secrets and I wouldn't discuss them here cause my beliefs are not for public debate or questioning sorry.

"Masons assume people are too stupid to get it"
Most people are to stupid to get it sorry. I have knew of masons since I was a child yet if I looked into it a few years ago I would be to stupid to get it or want to be part of it. So why would you teach something to people that are not ready for it yet. Its not like its math. I strongly feel when someone is ready and wanting for something they will seek it.

These are just my opinions I hope I don't come off as rude. I have a great sense of passion for masonry as many others do that may jump when people put it down/questioned but it is to be viewed as if I put down your wife or questioned her motives in life. Who am I to question her? Its easy to take offense when it seems like someone is putting down or questioning something one loves with an approach that may appear to have negative tones.

Most people are not stupid but they have been led into much confusion. So-called (and stupid) leaders have the privilege to think that we dummies need to turn over and allow more smart people into this world. Personally, we don’t – we need more kind loving people. I am not one of those people who appreciate a person looking down on others.

If Masons want to protect people from using the Tree of Life and thus harming themselves or others, then that is a good thing. But I do not see Masons speaking about destroying the egoism. Besides, they are not supposedly connected to the Mysteries, rite?

Well as all good researchers should do....let's go to the source and see what they have to say.....

www.treas.gov...

bensguide.gpo.gov...

www.state.gov...

This should give you great insight on how those symbols came about and what they represent on the one dollar bill....

Seach ATS and read the many threads on this subject alone...

And NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM is a Latin. Since I know the Bible was originally written in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, before English, why did our founding fathers choose Latin, if indeed they were not mostly Masons connected to the Mysteries?

The other link you posted says, “The seal reflects the beliefs and values that the Founding Fathers wanted to pass on to their descendents.” So what were those beliefs, which eluded them to choose the particular symbols? Am I the only person that thinks that Masons are not being fully honest?


[edit on 24-9-2005 by realrepublican]

from www.state.gov...
Before it adjourned on July 4, 1776, the Continental Congress of the newly
independent United States passed a resolution:
Resolved, that Dr. Franklin, Mr. J. Adams
and Mr. Jefferson, be a committee, to
bring in a device for a seal for the United
States of America.

Of these three men only Franklin was a Mason.

from www.state.gov...
The Third Committee
In May 1782 the Congress appointed a third committee. The three members— John Rutledge, Arthur Middleton, and Elias
Boudinot—did little or no serious work themselves, relying on the services
of William Barton of Philadelphia.
A young lawyer with artistic skill and well versed in heraldry, he became a central figure in the seal’s refinement.
Barton’s chief contribution at this stage was the eagle, not the American bald eagle, but a small crested white eagle “displayed” (with its wings spread). He combined it with a small flag and a design for the reverse
which contained a 13-step unfinished pyramid and the first committee’s Eye of Providence. He quickly drew up two designs and their technical explanations, and the committee turned in its report five days after it was
appointed.

There is no evidence that Mr. Barton was a Freemason....

Soooo my question to you would be how can you say that Freemason's put those symbols on the back of the one dollar bill when only one of the four influential people of the Seal's design was a Mason?!?!?

A

Of these three men only Franklin was a Mason.

Jefferson was not a certain type of Mason? Are you sure? What did J. Adams say about Jefferson's work within the Masonic lodges?

There is no evidence that Mr. Barton was a Freemason....

Soooo my question to you would be how can you say that Freemason's put those symbols on the back of the one dollar bill when only one of the four influential people of the Seal's design was a Mason?!?!?

Barton may have been a Protestant? But I never said Masons put the symbols on the Seal but that the symbols are Masonic to the very extent which proves a connection to the Mysteries. What about the street layout of Washington DC? Why would a non-Mason hire a non-mason to design a Masonic compass, a symbol also connected with the Mysteries? Does it matter if the guy who did the physical work was a Muslim or Jew, when the idea and control of the project was based upon ancient mysteries?

Originally posted by realrepublican
Jefferson was not a certain type of Mason? Are you sure? What did J. Adams say about Jefferson's work within the Masonic lodges?

Altho it is speculated that Jefferson may have possibly been a Mason there is no hard evidence that he was.

realrepublican

I think you seem to have a very strange idea of what freemasonry is. Could you provide a definition for us to get some common ground? You will find my definition here

Originally posted by realrepublican

Yes, he is well respected. I didn't say otherwise. But to suggest that he is speaking on behalf of freemasony is quite wrong.

Yes, so you believe that Manly P. Hall is not a good example to follow or research, for the layman who really wants to understand more about true Masonry, correct?

What do you mean by the phrase 'true masonry'?

So Albert pike, who’s book “Morals and Dogma” was given out to many of the lodges up until 1974, who is extremely popular in the US, is not a Craft Freemason, is that what your saying?

No, I didn't say that. Every member of the Scottish Rite must be in a 'blue' lodge, so by definition Albert Pike must have been a Craft freemason. What I am saying is that writers like Pike and Hall present their own views on what freemasonry means. Indeed Pike even printed a disclaimer at the front of Morals and Dogma inviting the reader to take it or leave it.

Are you saying that the Majority of Masonic websites do not present Albert Pike as a true craft Mason?

Where did you get this idea that I said Albert Pike wasn't a craft mason. It seems to me, realrepublican, that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the structure of freemasonry. It might be advantageous to you to research a little further as to the relationship between Craft masonry and some of the different appendant bodies that you seem to be getting confused about.

Unless you can produce a more reliable source of information...

What would you accept as a reliable source of information?

Religion and spirituality is a way of living that if understood and acted upon correctly, less is the religion and more the spirituality. Spirituality does not need any support from Masonry or anything else for that matter!

Are you saying that organisations should oppose spirituality?

Once again, it depends on what you consider is true Freemasonry, rite? If the USA government seems to accept and push the creepier version of it, then every Mason should be very concerned that they are getting mixed up in so much confusion. I do not see the kind of progressive engagement from Masons that I would expect from an organization that did not want to be part of the Scottish rite, or another non-craft entity. Masons partake in the fruits of all and yet deny accountability. How can you have it both ways?

It seems that you are expecting something from freemasonry that is outside of its terms of reference. I'd be interested to know what 'version of freemasonry' you think the US government is pushing, as the only recognised governing bodies of freemasonry are Grand Lodges, which are non-political. The US government certainly has no jurisdiction in this aea.

Are you suggesting that G. W. Bush, along with many of the ruling class, are not craft Masons, or any other type of Mason? My conclusions are based upon Masonry in general, not just the type of craft you think is correct.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. You seem to have a quite different ideas of what freemasonry is from the rest of us, and like I said earlier I'd like to see that defined.

They are Masonic symbols actually; as are the compass and pentagram, which are designed in the streets of Washington DC, Masonic

The compass is a masonic symbol, and is usually used in conjunction with the square. It has a specific masonic interpretation. The pentagram is a mathematical shape widely used in many contexts, including that of masonry. It is therefore not specifically masonic and one can only really ascribe masonic symbolism to it when used in a masonic context.

I am familiar with the allegation that masonic symbols are built into the street plan of Washington DC but remain unconvinced that this was deliberate. Even if it was, I can't see anything sinister in it.

Regarding the inverted pentagram on the Republican logo, yes I do think you should be concerned. Not that I’m telling you what to think but I assume you are a decent fellow and thus assume you would be concerned that a political party wished to insult the intelligence of those who see it as a great sign of pride, pompousness and disrespect! That is not an accident and I know all too well the meaning of subliminal messages.

As I suggested in my previous posting, I think you should contact the Republicans and find out why the stars are inverted.

Rite! So the US government says one thing and you say another.

What is it that the US government says? From your previous comments they seem to making masonic policy.

Honestly, I’d rather trust you much more then I do them but even still, how come Masons don’t complain about being all mixed up with these rather creepy?

Why thanks you. But I can't really comment until I know what it is the US government is supossed to have said.

Be honest about this now, silence is golden, no?

Sometimes...

You can learn more about these sorts of organisations
here, but remember this only applies to the US. Freemasonry is structured entirely differently in other parts of the world.

Or we can go and see it on the dollar bill also.

Now this I don't understand. Are you saying that one can receive the same amount of masonic information from the back of the one dollar bill as you can from the link to a site that outlines in some detail what all the different appendant bodies of masonry are? If you are taking the back of a bank note as your primary source of info this would explain a lot

But you say that masonry has nothing to do with the Mysteries.

Again (and this must be the fourth or fith time) you've claimed I said something I didn't. Lets have a look at what I said.

"Most masonic scholars acknowledge that freemasonry evolved from operative stonemasons in the 15th - 17th centuries in Britain. The organisation took much from older organisations, but are not directly descended from them. Others disagree. "

"Masonry is not one of the mystery religions. It's not a religion... period."

IMO freemasonry is not descended directly from the Ancient Mysteries, but elements of those mysteries are incorporated within Freemasonry.

Please stop misquoting me, it only sows confusion.

The official government explanation says that the great Seal showing the Pyramid has something to do with Divine Providence during the USA’s formation. So who were these founders? They were mostly Masons correct? Are we to assume that symbolism is not at all Masonic?

Rather, why would you assume that it is masonic. Only 9 out of a total of 56 signatories to the declaration were freemasons. That's 16%.

Go here for more information about the great seal.

I think you seem to have a very strange idea of what freemasonry is. Could you provide a definition for us to get some common ground? You will find my definition here

Your link says “Freemasonry is a society of men concerned with moral and spiritual values. Its members are taught its precepts by a series of ritual dramas, which follow ancient forms, and use stonemasons' customs and tools as allegorical guides.” That definition sounds like trying to appease an automaton! Is that it, where’s the real substance and history to back up all these claims of customs, ancient forms and drama?

I gave you my definition already. And without sending you to various web links or simply copying text over, I mentioned that I considered Manly P Hall and Pike’s writings to be of authority. Now you wrote in so many words, that you’re really not too sure what Masonry is. You wrote “very few senior freemasons give their public opinion on such matters……..”

Then you wrote “Many people have opinions about freemasonry, and there is a school of thought that tends toward the esoteric interpretation of the symbology of freemasonry. But freemasonry itself tends to shy away from overly complex interpretations of its activities as it sees itself as fundamentally very simple and straightforward.”

According to what you wrote, I think this implies that true Freemasonry is simple and straightforward but still many MASONS disagree, correct?

Once again you wrote “Most Masonic scholars acknowledge that freemasonry evolved from operative stonemasons in the 15th - 17th centuries in Britain. The organisation took much from older organisations, but are not directly descended from them. Others disagree”.
Yes, I certainly disagree that Masonry was started in 1717.

What do you mean by the phrase 'true masonry'?

I will explain below:
It was you who wrote: “Pike himself, and he wasn't really a senior freemason, being the head of a side order and virtually unheard of outside of the US. Hall wrote his seminal work 'the lost keys of freemasonry' when he was 21 - 31 years before he became a freemason.”

You’re trying to discredit both Pike and Hall as proper examples for having an opinion on Masonry, why? How many other authors are there writing on Masonry? If you can recommend just one, please do so.

Now, suppose I am willing to join Masonry but before I do, I wished to conduct in depth research into the subject matter. Well, no offence but if it’s this hard for someone to help guide me to a simple book to read, written by an authority figure on Blue Lodge Masonry or whatever you say is craft Masonry, then I wonder, what did you guys read before the internet? Did you have to join the Blue lodge before knowing anything more?

My definition of “true Masonry” is as per the Great Manly P Hall – said by the Scottish rite Magazine to be one of Masonry’s Greatest Philosophers of the century:

“FREEMASONRY is a fraternity within a fraternity—an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect. Before it is possible to intelligently discuss the origin of the Craft, it is necessary, therefore, to establish the existence of these two separate yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of "free and accepted" men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most august fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcanum arcanorum.Those Brethren who have essayed to write the history of their Craft have not included in their disquisitions the story of that truly secret inner society which is to the body Freemasonic what the heart is to the body human.In each generation only a few are accepted into the inner sanctuary of the Work, but these are veritable Princes of the Truth and their sainted names shall be remembered in future ages together with the seers and prophets of the elder world. Though the great initiate-philosophers of Freemasonry can be counted upon one's fingers, yet their power is not to be measured by the achievements of ordinary men. They are dwellers upon the Threshold of the Innermost, Masters of that secret doctrine which forms the invisible foundation of every great theological and rational institution.”

No, I didn't say that. Every member of the Scottish Rite must be in a 'blue' lodge, so by definition Albert Pike must have been a Craft freemason. What I am saying is that writers like Pike and Hall present their own views on what freemasonry means. Indeed Pike even printed a disclaimer at the front of Morals and Dogma inviting the reader to take it or leave it.

What other version should I take? What about Alister Crowley’s perverted version, would that be any more fun to read? NO, I think I’ll stick with Manly Hall, or unless you or another Blue Lodge Mason can recommend another author.

Where did you get this idea that I said Albert Pike wasn't a craft mason. It seems to me, realrepublican, that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the structure of freemasonry. It might be advantageous to you to research a little further as to the relationship between Craft masonry and some of the different appendant bodies that you seem to be getting confused about.

I have read too much already Trinityman. Long ago, I started reading Manly P. Hall first. If I am doomed to misunderstand Masonry, please at least understand why.

What would you accept as a reliable source of information?

Something like a book explaining straightforward Masonry. If possible having done real research into where Masonry really began. Some say 1717, I say it started thousands of years ago and I want to join that lodge, if possible.

Are you saying that organisations should oppose spirituality?

Most organizations oppose spirituality by default. If Masonry doesn’t oppose spirituality then that is a very good thing. But does Blue lodge Masonry have separate Lodges for woman?

It seems that you are expecting something from freemasonry that is outside of its terms of reference. I'd be interested to know what 'version of freemasonry' you think the US government is pushing, as the only recognised governing bodies of freemasonry are Grand Lodges, which are non-political. The US government certainly has no jurisdiction in this aea.

Why are Albert Pikes bones interred at the Grand Temple Lodge in Washington DC? Why is he treated as a Masonic Idle, as opposed from the rest of the other Confederate hero’s? I thought you said that he was the head of a side order? That tells me something of the US government accepting that side order.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. You seem to have a quite different ideas of what freemasonry is from the rest of us, and like I said earlier I'd like to see that defined.

I got a bad feeling that Masonry may be getting a bad name but when G.W. Bush was governor of Texas, I thought he was considered a Mason. I guess I was mistaken.

The compass is a Masonic symbol, and is usually used in conjunction with the square. It has a specific Masonic interpretation. The pentagram is a mathematical shape widely used in many contexts, including that of masonry. It is therefore not specifically Masonic and one can only really ascribe Masonic symbolism to it when used in a Masonic context.

Well, there is also the Star of David, which appears on the Great Seal. I assume that this may be also representing a Jewish meaning, or early Essene but the six points spells Mason, not Christian or Jew. Is that a coincidence also?

I am familiar with the allegation that Masonic symbols are built into the street plan of Washington DC but remain unconvinced that this was deliberate. Even if it was, I can't see anything sinister in it.

There isn’t anything sinister in it. But the denial of it may raise some eyebrows also. Now consider this: The Star of David connects to spelling M.A.S.O.N and the Mason is on the Dollar Bill. Then everything else on the dollar may start to become suspect – just a thought.

As I suggested in my previous posting, I think you should contact the Republicans and find out why the stars are inverted.

If I did, do you think they will respond to my questioning or even be honest? What do you think is the reason for me asking you what you thought?

What is it that the US government says? From your previous comments they seem to making Masonic policy.

Why thanks you. But I can't really comment until I know what it is the US government is supossed to have said.

Yes. The US government has allowed several organizations to be affiliated or claim themselves as Masonic in nature. This creates ambiguity for someone trying to find out what is true Masonry.

Now this I don't understand. Are you saying that one can receive the same amount of Masonic information from the back of the one dollar bill as you can from the link to a site that outlines in some detail what all the different appendant bodies of masonry are? If you are taking the back of a bank note as your primary source of info this would explain a lot

Any researcher can determine that the symbols are Masonic, or were placed there by Masons. The 6 pointed Star of David is found there also and it spells Mason. Some lodges do claim that the symbols are Masonic in nature also, so yes the dollar is just one source but not all.

Again (and this must be the fourth or fith time) you've claimed I said something I didn't. Lets have a look at what I said.

"Most Masonic scholars acknowledge that freemasonry evolved from operative stonemasons in the 15th - 17th centuries in Britain. The organisation took much from older organisations, but are not directly descended from them. Others disagree. "

"Masonry is not one of the mystery religions. It's not a religion... period."

IMO freemasonry is not descended directly from the Ancient Mysteries, but elements of those mysteries are incorporated within Freemasonry.

Please stop misquoting me, it only sows confusion.

So you’re implying that Freemasonry is like a shell or vassal; and that shell or vassal without those Ancient Mystery elements, is void or empty. And even still, some disagree!!

“Rather, why would you assume that it is Masonic. Only 9 out of a total of 56 signatories to the declaration were freemasons. That's 16%.”

Some would argue much higher than 16%. But I stress the importance in accepting that the seal was designed by at least 2 of the few EARLY Masonic Presidents – no other explanation currently makes more sense to me.





[edit on 25-9-2005 by realrepublican]

Forgive me for intruding here. I read the links on the great seal and all, but I've always heard that the Pyramid was chosen as a symbol because several Founding Fathers were members of the "Egyptian Lodge" of Masons..
Were that true, it would be rather blatant symbolism, wouldn't it?

Originally posted by Falco Rex
Forgive me for intruding here. I read the links on the great seal and all, but I've always heard that the Pyramid was chosen as a symbol because several Founding Fathers were members of the "Egyptian Lodge" of Masons..
Were that true, it would be rather blatant symbolism, wouldn't it?

Washington, Franklin, Revere, Hancock, etc., were members of the York Rite. The Egyptian Rite of Cagliostro was not active in the USA.

Originally posted by realrepublican


Now, suppose I am willing to join Masonry but before I do, I wished to conduct in depth research into the subject matter. Well, no offence but if it’s this hard for someone to help guide me to a simple book to read, written by an authority figure on Blue Lodge Masonry or whatever you say is craft Masonry, then I wonder, what did you guys read before the internet? Did you have to join the Blue lodge before knowing anything more?

A couple of things about Hall: he was a well-respected author and humanitarian. But he wrote most of his books back in the 1920's and 30's, about 30 years before he himself became a Mason. I also enjoy reading Hall, but he is not always 100% accurate.

I would recommend "The Builders" and "The Mens House" by Dr. Joseph Fort Newton, and 'A Comprehensive View of Freemasonry" by Henry Wilson Coil.

Why are Albert Pikes bones interred at the Grand Temple Lodge in Washington DC? Why is he treated as a Masonic Idle, as opposed from the rest of the other Confederate hero’s? I thought you said that he was the head of a side order? That tells me something of the US government accepting that side order.

The government has nothing to do with it. Both Albert Pike and John Henry Cowles are interred in the two crypts behind the Pillars of Charity at the Supreme Council's Temple in D.C.

I got a bad feeling that Masonry may be getting a bad name but when G.W. Bush was governor of Texas, I thought he was considered a Mason. I guess I was mistaken.

It is possible that some may have thought he was a Mason, but if so, they were mistaken.