Do the Genocidal Policies of the Jewish Torah dim Simon Wiesenthal's Memory? (see Deut 20)

"Simon Wiesenthal may be dead, but his legacy lives on...???"

www.signonsandiego.com...

No one would argue that Simon Wiesenthal did "good" by hunting down Nazis after the War in the name of "Justice":

But I wonder if the Policies of Genocide and Extermination esposed in the Torah (which is after all the "core" of Judaism) especially the Racist Vomit placed into the mouth of Yahweh (the clan-god of Israel) in the book of Deuteronomy and exemplified in the heinous book of Joshua and other books of the "Holy Bible" (which makes Hitler look like Alice in Wonderland) will make his "Houses of Tolerance" a contradiction in terms?

Read for example:

Deuteronomy 20:16 "In the cities of the goyim (gentiles, i.e. non-Israelites) that YHWH your god will give you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything in them behind you that breathes alive: genocide them all…. the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as your clan god YHWH has commanded you.."

Deuteronomy 13:15 "You will exterminate all the inhabitants of that city by the edge of the sword, genociding every one that lives in it and the cattle too by with the edge of the sword.

13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoils of the place into a "heap" into the middle of the streets, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoils with it and dedicate it to Yahweh your god as a perpetual ruin: never again shall that city be rebuilt..."

The same writer of Deuteronomy (whoever he was) also wrote the heinous book of Joshua with its policies of genocide and extermination:

see Joshua 11:20 "For it was YHWH’s own doing to stiffen their hearts when they came out against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly exterminated, and should receive no mercy but be genocided every one, even as YHWH explicitly commanded Moses..."

and also Joshua 10:40 "So Joshua conquered the whole land ... he left none breathing, but exterminated every one that breathed, as YHWH the clan-god of Israel had commanded him so to do."

In view of all this, aren't Simon Wiesenthal's "Houses of Tolerance" a little out of sync with what YHWH says in the Torah to do with aboriginal peoples who are "different" than their conquerors?






[edit on 20-9-2005 by NEOAMADEUS]

You can do this with the Bible or the Koran.

Its not that interesting, old books have different values to the modern world. woo....

And to suggest that the achievements of a man who really did fight for justice should be devalued because of a book is an insulting piece of idiocy.

Hi Uncle Joe:

I just thought the grotesque extermination policies of the Israelites in the Torah of the Jews were a little inconguent with the idea of "tolerance" that Wiesenthal's "Houses of Tolerance" pretend to display.

I did not see any memorials to the Girgi#es, or the Hivvites, or the Amorites or the Jebusites or those poor Amalekites in any of those so called Houses of Tolerance.

Also very little attention is ever given to the OTHER groups that Hitler and the Nazis put to death in the camps, which is surprising when one starts doing some digging into the horrific numbers involved:

e.g. the atrocities against certain types of ethnic foreign races in the 3rd Reich e.g. "Gypsies" (more than 1 million people) and Homosexuals male and female (at least 1.4 million people) and of course that giant number of anti-Nazi Political prisoners (more than 7.4 million people) and the Jews (possibly 2.8 to 3.8 million people, tho' the number is hotly disputed in many circles today) .


What Wiesenthal did was admirable, but I wonder if he ever read Torah?

Sorry i just dont see the point of this.

Atrocities have been commited in the past. They should be remembered but they arn't. Remember the Armenians in 1915?

None of which detracts from what this man did, which was to bring those guilty of sickening crimes to justice.

Where does the Torah come into it? Where do ancient acts come into this? Its nonsense. If you have a problem with the bloodthirsty past of the Jews then talk about it. But dont use it to detract from the efforts of this man.

A few questions for you.

1) Why do you have to destroy the credibility of your own post by editorializing too much? Is it necessary to mock other people's beliefs simply because you don't believe in them? I don't think anyone has the right to call someone else's religion and texts "racist vomit" and "heinous" etc. We don't tolerate that on ATS regarding the Torah, the Koran, the KJV Bible or any other. On ATS we analyze beliefs, not mock them. Consider changing your tone if you'd like to continue this discussion.

2) You list the numbers of people killed in World War 2, all in the millions, but make a snide remark about how only the number of Jews is now "hotly disputed". That's interesting. Why is that? I'd like to "hotly dispute" all the other numbers. Do you have time to show me the concrete evidence of them all? I mean obviously if only the Jewish number is in question you MUST have a photo and ID number for every other victim of every other ethnicity in World War 2, since those are not "hotly disputed". Right?

Your points are interesting, but your way of putting them forth leaves a lot to be desired. You leave me wondering what your goal is here.

Funny how many will come with the "I am offended" rhetoric to something that is clearly a fact of the old books of the old testament.

The image of modern Christianity of good and what is evil has been change so much that many can not even take the truth without "been offended"

Is there in writing and for everyone to read it, Christianity humble beginnings were nothing but peaceful and good.

Make you wonder as who the evil doers really were.

There was no rhetoric. Only a simple statement.

We do not allow people to mock and call other people's religions names, such as racist vomit and heinous. This is nothing new. We have NEVER tolerated that. What we do tolerate is questioning and analysis of such beliefs. Nothing wrong with that.

However, no one will call someone else's beliefs names or that sort of activity. That is ignorance.

I did not argue any quotes, people can analyze what they like.

My request is that people not call each other's beliefs nasty names. It's uncalled for and reminiscent of schoolyard tactics long forgotten.

especially the Racist Vomit placed into the mouth of Yahweh

I believe this the offending phrase?, I am sorry but isn't Yahweh an entity?

None human and with not sustance?

I am confused here now. I don't think Yahweh can get offended, right? the phrase is about it.

Since these books are also the books of the Bible, should you demand these same answers from the Christians.

And the Muslims.

Those books are held as principle holy scripture by all those religions. We Wiccans are staying out of this one, thanks.

Hi Djarums:

Wouldn't you call the genocidal passages in Mein Kampf "racist vomit" too? I certainly would.

Now go back and read the book of Deuteronomy and also the book of Joshua very very carefully---two "holy Biblical" books which were penned by the same racist group (same language, diction, style, Weltanschauung, spelling, syntax, phraseology, formulae and curious word order).

Can you see any similarities in their respective INTOLERANCES? If not, then you need to read them both side by side VERY closely AGAIN.

To me the comparison seems even worse in the "Bible" ---because instead of coming out of the mouth of a madman, the genocidal orders are being placed into the mouth of a "god" who was supposed to have created all people, including the very same people he wants to exterminate.

In fact ...most of Adolf Hitler's so-called "Anti Semitic" claptrap repeated again and again in his own heinous book of 1922 was derived from expressions that were found in the Hebrew Torah (especially with respect to genociding the local Canaanite tribelets who were very inconveniently living in the so-called "Promised Land", with the idea that the people there were "different" and therefore "inferior" and therefore required extermination by the invading Israelites).

So although while I applaud Mr Wiesenthal's efforts in vengeance hunting down all those vicious Nazi-monsters from last century, all in the name of Justice, its seems very curious to me how silent he was on the same kind of atrocities that were perpetrated by "his own people" especially as it is described so viciously in the Torah, i.e. their own religion's core-founding documents, which Judeo Christians propagandise to the world as "divine authority"...

Seems a very curious disconnect with Reality here to me...

Originally posted by Byrd
Those books are held as principle holy scripture by all those religions. We Wiccans are staying out of this one, thanks.

Could it be because your in a fine kettle of fish elsewhere?

Brave Monkeys, not just for stew meat anymore...

For your edification, Moses wrote the majority of Deuteronomy, with Joshua writing about the death of Moses.

This has nothing to do with Simon Wiesenthal, but a not-so thinmly veiled attack on the Bible and Torah by one who does not understand it or why God did as He did in the early days of humanity.

I also see absolutley NO conspiracy in this thread, how about the Religion Mods; do y'all?

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I also see absolutley NO conspiracy in this thread, how about the Religion Mods; do y'all?

Nope.

Looks like Faith, Spirituality & Theology...

Moving Monkeys, not just for the end of the month anymore...

Hi Thomas Crowne:

Just for your own edification, if Joshua wrote the book of Joshua and the ending to Deuteronomy, then why is the book of Deuteronomy AS A WHOLE in the same style as JOSHUA as a whole?

Also Why do both books appear in the paleo Hebrew writing style of c. 520BC, e.g. of the Book of Jeremiah?

Can you even read unpointed paleo-Hebrew?

Also, the only conspiracy aspect to this thread is that The Houses of Tolerance deliberately CONCEAL the racist-genocidal history of Rabinnic Judaeism from the masses of goyim who cannot read their documents in the original languages.

Just for your edification.

You tell me, smart guy.
There are many answers that are good and reasonable, and they have nothing to do with your misleading thread that had nothing to do with Simon Wiesenthal.
For example, might it be that Joshua learned his style from Moses' style?
For my edification, might you explain why it is that this "conspiracy" is now being revealed? I'm thinking that something like this conspiracy would have been surfaced, say, when King James saw fit to have the Book translated as accurately as the translators could do it? That would have been the perfect time, I would think.

Hey Thomas Crowne:

As far as the Mosaic authorship of the Torah is concerned, check out the book (now in paperback) WHO WROTE THE BIBLE? by Richard Elliot Friedman, a student of Frank Cross of Harvard.

Freidmann lays out the problems of the text and breaks down the literary sources of the Pentateuch (i.e. the Torah, including the 5th book of Deuteronomy which was written in later Hebrew than most of the rest) for the layman who has no access to or frame of reference within the paleo Hebrew and otherwise would be shut out of the linguistic nuances of style.

Any scholar who is even half way conversant with paleo-Hebrew style can see at a glance that the book of Deuteronomy is a late, post Exilic production (post 587BC) written by scribes from within the lsa,e literary circle of the book of Jeremiah (e.g. Baruch) and even uses the same expressions and syntax and grammar and spelling and Weltanschauung--and this same writer group also produced the book of Joshua which continues the narrative in the same style.

These two books actually have nothing to do with the historical "Moses" figure in the 14th century BC but (at least in its present form) is clearly in a later Hebrew written form which can be dated c. 520 - 500 BC (more than 800+ years from the purported time of "Moses").

But back to this threadlet: My main point was that Simon Wiesenthal was a practicing Jew who held the Torah in high esteem, and yet the Torah espouses genocide and extermination policies that are remeniscent of Hitler's Nazi's of the 1940s, the very group that victimised him and his family.

What Wiesenthal did after the war to promote his agenda of fevered Nazi hunting throughout the world was fuelled naturally by his own personal vengeance (and a sense that Justice must be served somehow for his fellow victims who died during the Second World War in the last century) but I find it INCONGRUOUS that the one single "Religion" which is one of the most intolerant of all world religions (and I speak of orthodox and torah abiding-Judaeism not the more gentile friendly reform Judaeism) should be the same religious group that was behind the financing and building of all those costly Houses of Tolerance worldwide---which focus hardly at all on so many OTHER egregious "holocausts" in world history (the American Indian Holocaust (1795-1895), the Armenian Holocaust by the Turks, the death by starvation of 22 million Ukrainians under Stalin in the 1920s, Pol Pot and the Khmer ROuge, etc.) that is, both modern and ancient, including (but not limited to) the genocidal policies of the Torah. But all of this is missing from their displays (at least in the ones I've been to in the US)

Of course world Jewry finances the construction of these socalled "houses of Tolerance", so naturally they would put their own kind on centre stage...but it would be more fair of them to show images of the more than 7 Million Germans (i.e. NON Jews) were also gassed and starved and burnt in the crematoria right along with over 1 million Homosexuals who were right there beside the Jews in the Nazi concentration camps as political prisoners (1942-1945)...

Although I applaud what Wiesenthal did to avenge the death of so many people during the war, I would applaud him even more if he made an attempt to distance himself from the intolerant rhetoric of the religious right wing within his own people--even if it meant having the guts to stand to them and admit (in view of its espousal of genocide and race-hatred) that the Torah needs to be taken off its pedestal as anything to be considered "divine" or "authoritative" (including the warped dea of Jews being the "chosen people" or the "master race") like so many other secular Jews have done especially over the past 75 years.

Instead he allowed his world organisation to pander to the right wing within Judaeism, from whence most of his funding emanated.

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS


No one would argue that Simon Wiesenthal did "good" by hunting down Nazis after the War in the name of "Justice":

But I wonder if the Policies of Genocide and Extermination esposed in the Torah (which is after all the "core" of Judaism) especially the Racist Vomit placed into the mouth of Yahweh (the clan-god of Israel) in the book of Deuteronomy and exemplified in the heinous book of Joshua and other books of the "Holy Bible" (which makes Hitler look like Alice in Wonderland) will make his "Houses of Tolerance" a contradiction in terms?

Disingenuous crap.

Where in either the Jewish Documentation Centre in Vienna, or the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in the US does he have any of YOUR chosen quotes on public display?

In which public speeches did he use YOUR chosen quotes to show his motivation?

And Wiesenthal was avenging no-one. He spent half a century telling the world that his search was for justice, not vengeance, but, hey, you know better.

I can tell you, as a person who has lived in a country that has suffered genocide, that justice is a far more highly motivating factor than vengeance.

And I can also tell you that Simon Wiesenthal spent his time attempting to make people remember the Holocaust precisely to prevent such horrors as the Khmer Rouge, go and look at what he told the press.

7 million non-Jewish Germans? If Hitler killed that many then he's approaching KR levels of catastrophe. And the KR are responsible for the worst single national atrocity in recorded history.

And by focusing on the Holocaust, the memory of genocide is kept alive and every time somebody speaks publicly about the Holocaust and genocide they also mention Cambodia, Rwanda and the Balkans. So what is the problem.

What have you done with your life that can compare with Simon Wiesenthal's labours and contribution?

Looks like an effort at trawling for points. Say, how do you feel abouth HMS Invincible?

Hi Howlrunner IV:

Actually I only asked a simple question: Why didn't Simon Wiesenthal distance himself publically from right wing Jews who quote Torah as the "word of G-d", which naturally includes genocidal policies placed into YHWH's mouth in Deuteronomy and the heinous biblical book of "Joshua" both books which were penned and edited by the same group of what we today would call "racists" ?

I applauded Simon Wiesenthal's own personal "search for justice" in hunting down Nazi war criminals, but why didn't his organisation distance himself from the JDL and other terrorist organisations that financed Dr. Rabbi Baruch Goldstein of Brooklyn NY(and you at least should know what that racist Rebbe did to those "facing the east" back in Feb of 1994 with his handy dandy US made automatic weapon in the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, all the while screaming verses from Deuteronomy chapter 13 and Hezekiel chapters 8 and 9)?

Much of what Simon Wiesenthal did was very "good" in his very long life: I am a comparatively young man who has many many decades ahead of me to argue these points on worldwide public fora and increase public awareness of the racism/genocide inherent in Torah and Talmud---the contents of which often flies in the face of what Wiesenthal was trying to achieve in the first place.

Have you read the documents in question in their original language (Deuteronomy and Joshua)? If not, I suggest you take some time to study each line very carefully.

Then we can talk !

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
Hi Howlrunner IV:

Actually I only asked a simple question: Why didn't Simon Wiesenthal distance himself publically from right wing Jews who quote...

I have only one question, why haven't you distanced yourself publicly from the words of Pope Gregory the Great, who said it was a Christian's duty to kill Muslims in the holy land? No, two questions. Why haven't you distanced yourself publicly from Paul Keating, who on the floor of Parliament House said "blblblblblblblbl"? Or Eric Idle who stated that it was his right to be a woman, or from John Cleese, who said "You can't have babies, where is it going to gestate, in a box?"?

Have you read the documents in question in their original language (Deuteronomy and Joshua)? If not, I suggest you take some time to study each line very carefully.

Then we can talk !

Right, I'm going to go and learn a basically dead language so I can debate with you about someone who lived thousands of years after a set of documents was written. Say, why hasn't Silvio Berlusconi distanced himself from the words of Emperor Nero?

Hey Howlrunner:

Down boy. (Methinks the Lady Doth Protest a Little Too Much...)

I merely asked why Simon Wiesenthal took MONEY from right wing racist zionist torah believing Jews to finance "houses of tolerance" which of course cost MONEY to build.

It would be like a presidential candidate (or any public official) taking money from the KKK or from the neo Nazis.

Why didn't he merely return all the millions they raised for his organisation and say, thanks but no thanks, I do NOT support the genocidal policies placed into the mouth of Moses in your torah.

But he took the money AND SAID NOTHING.

He was also curiously SILENT about what Dr. RABBI Baruch Goldstein did in the Cave of the Patriarchs in late Feb in 1994.

So was the American press for that matter...which is NO excuse for them...