Abomination of desolation...Now !!

Abomination of desolation...NOW!!!!

First Read this. 2Tim. 2:[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

In other words if you do not study then YOU ARE NOT APPROVED!!!

Now try this one on for size. Mark 13:14,15

[14] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
[15] And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Now here it is broken down via Strong's definitions.

[14] But when ye shall see the abomination= STINK of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where IT ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains= government:
[15] And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:= BECAUSE IT'S FLOODED!!!!

Our focus here is on the word "IT". Its meaning in the Gr. # 846 and it states "akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind" = Katrina

You can read 109 yourselves. Very interesting indeed.

Now what does BAFFLING mean? PERPLEX!!!

Read these;

Is. 22: [5] For it is a day of trouble, and of treading down, and of perplexity by the Lord GOD of hosts in the valley of vision, breaking down the walls= LEVEES, and of crying to the mountains=governments.

Mic. 7: [4] The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity= IT'S TIME

Lk 21: [25] And there shall be signs in the sun=FLARES, and in the moon=PLASMA (BLOOD) RADIATION, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;= KATRINA
[26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken= VIA HAARP vibrations .

WOE! So now what? Well read this. GOD IS AWESOME!!!!

Dan. 12: [11] And from the time that the daily =(Heb. 8548; continual employment /JOBS) sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination= due to Katrina that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

How many jobs were lost due to katrina? 40,000

See you in 3 1/2 years!!! Zee

[edit on 19-9-2005 by John bull 1]

You can prove anything by bouncing here and there. In a text of manuscript.

Of course, When Katrina fails to Prove to be a abomination of desolation. Then something else will take its place.

Such is the Nature of prophetic utterances. If wrong, They are to Reinterpreted to be correct.

Besides the abomination involves a temple not a "Dike".

Surface: Sept 19 2005 NBC 8pm CST
The fate of the world is in their hands, they just dont know it.
www.nbc.com...


Invasion: Wed Sept 21 2005 ABC 9pm CST
abc.go.com...
From famed writer/producer Shaun Cassidy ("Cold Case," "American Gothic," "Cover Me") comes a suspenseful tale of a blended family trying to recover from a devastating hurricane and its mysterious aftermath.
For centuries man has searched the skies for signs of intelligent life forms. What if those life forms were already here? And what if some of the natural disasters we've been experiencing of late were merely smokescreens to mask something far more ominous?



Threshold: Sept 23 2005 CBS 8pm CST
www3tivo.com
A team of experts are assembled when the U.S. Navy makes a chilling discovery: an extra-terrestrial craft has landed in the mid-Atlantic Ocean. Dr. Molly Anne Caffrey is a government contingency analyst whose job is to devise response plans for worst-case scenarios. When her plan (called THRESHOLD) is activated upon the news of the UFO, she and her hand-picked team of eclectic specialists get to work deciphering the intention of the craft and preparing for the possibility of a crisis situation -- an alien invasion.


You getting the picture

Mod Edit: Link Truncation... For the betterment of ATS



[edit on 20/9/2005 by Mirthful Me]

First Read this. 2Tim. 2:[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

In other words if you do not study then YOU ARE NOT APPROVED!!!

You've got a point. Ever wondered why those that question the Bible generally seem to know a lot, lot more about it than those that accept it unconditionally?


Funny that...


[edit on 17-9-2005 by kegs]

Originally posted by kegs

First Read this. 2Tim. 2:[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

In other words if you do not study then YOU ARE NOT APPROVED!!!

You've got a point. Ever wondered why those that question the Bible generally seem to know a lot, lot more about it than those that accept it unconditionally?


Funny that...


[edit on 17-9-2005 by kegs]

Ever listen to a bunch of people that accept the Bible unconditionally talk about it with each other,,,,especially if they aren't from the same church or denomination. So much confusion and complication it would cause most genius level physicists heads to explode if they were to listen in.

Mark 13:14 KJV
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

First off:

The word 'it' (in this particular verse) is not Strong's #G846, which, by the way is a commonly used pronoun, 'autos' which is simply the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons (such as himself, herself).

In Mark 13:14, 'it ought' is translated from the word 'dei', which is Strongs #G1163:

Strong's ConcordanceThird person singular active present of G1210; also δεόν deon which is neuter active participle of the same; both used impersonally; it is (was, etc.) necessary (as binding): - behoved, be meet, must (needs), (be) need (-ful), ought, should.

Also:

The 'baffling wind' origins of the reflexive self pronoun have to do with the Breath of Life that animates us all--it is a baffling thing, for we know not whither it goes. See John 3:6-8.

KJVThat which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Lastly, the word 'abomination' means one thing in the bible, both in the NT:

Strong's Concordance
G946
bdelugma
From G948; a detestation, that is, (specifically) idolatry: - abomination.

G948
bdelussō
From a (presumed) derivative bdeo (to stink); to be disgusted, that is, (by implication) detest (especially of idolatry): - abhor, abominable.

and the OT:

Strong's Concordance
H8251
shiqqûts shiqqûts
From H8262; disgusting, that is, filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol: - abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

H8262
shâqats
A primitive root; to be filthy, that is, (intensively) to loathe, pollute: - abhor, make abominable, have in abomination, detest, X utterly.

In the Greek, Strong's states that 'bdelugma' comes from 'bdelusso', which, in turn, is a derivative of 'bdeo' which means 'to stink'--however, that is a minor nuance of the prevalent use of the word 'abomination' in the bible.

Abomination always mean 'idolatrous' or 'idol'. It is something that 'should not be' and it is unclean and abhorrent in the eyes of God.

The abomination of desolation is referring to the state of the Temple in Jerusalem from the time of the crucifixion until its destruction in 70 AD. The reason being, is that the Jews (including the priesthood and Temple servants) who rejected Jesus as Messiah continued in the twice-daily sacrifices and all other offerings (oblations) throughout the year, for forty years --because they did not understand that the daily sacrifices were no longer either needed nor of any use to anyone (since the universal sacrifice had been made, for all sinners, once and for all, on the cross). Now, consider that the sacrifice of Christ made that 'house desolate'--because no longer was God to be found in the one Temple, but was available to each and every soul--through the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost (which makes our bodies His Temple). Therefore, any and all sacrifices made during that time were both empty and in a sense, idolatrous--because they definitely weren't being accepted or acknowledged by God, who wasn't there anymore, regardless of what was intended by what was done in the Temple--the daily sacrifice and oblations had ceased--just as Daniel had prophesied.

The abomination (idolatry) of desolation (waste, destitution, emptiness) has been fulfilled once over--in that which took place in the Temple in Jerusalem from 30 AD to 70 AD.

Supporting scripture can be found in:

Matthew chapter 23--especially verses 37-39:

KJVO Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And Luke chapter 21, verse 20 of which reads:

KJVAnd when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

As well as many other places in both the OT and the NT, primarily in the prophetic passages.

CyberZee (and QueenieAnn, you listen up too):

You BOTH seem to be randomly choosing verses out of context and trying to apply them to things that have nothing whatsoever to do with your allegedly "inspired" connections.

The curious phrase "The Abomination which causes Desolation" = shíqqûç shômem is a cultic word used in connexion with temple worship and has nothing to do with Hurricane Katrina.

(see Heb.Daniel 12:11; Heb.Dan 9:27; Heb.Dan 11:31, written around 167 BC) is taken from the scattered Hebrew sections of the book of Daniel, which book was not originally a Greek document but a Hebrew/Aramaic one, so to run to Strong's concordance etc. and try and look up Greek words will only get you confused even more than you already are.

If you are REALLY serious about wanting to trace the origin of this difficult phrase ("ABOMINATION WHICH CAUSES DESOLATION") you will have to go back to the late Hebrew of Daniel, and not waste your time running to Strong's Concordance and trying to trace something like its original meaning in the later Koine Greek translations which do not in fact translate the Hebrew very accurately in terms of nuances.

QueenieAnne: unlike your claim that ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION is translated faithfully (i.e. exactly the same) from the obscure phrase of the Heb OT in Daneil into the Greek of the LXX and the later Koine Greek NT and the gospels, these translations"

Hurricane Katrina?

Cyberzee: are you kidding? Do you call this nonsense of yours on this thread "inspiration?" !!!!

OK ... time for school, children !...(you must have been out sick that day)

First off, you might as well know that the book of Daniel from whence this peculiar quotation of yours is sewn together, like so many Apocalyptic writings trying to be politically accurate and up to date, from a curious hotchpoch of different writings, some of which are in late Hebrew

(§ Daniel chapters 1:1 to 2:3 ; again in Hebrew beginning in Daniel chapter 8 and continues in chapters 9, 10, 11, & 12 - end)

and the other sections of Daniel sewn into the book are all in late Aramaic---

(§ Daniel chapters 2:4 to the end of chapter 7, especially the Son of Man vision in Dan 7:14 quoted by R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean in the gospels).

The passage in Daniel from which your quote wa taken (in your case, Cyberzee, way out of context !) was written in late Hebrew from around BC 167 and NOT in Greek ----and during the time of the Maccabbees when the canonical book of Daniel was being re-written (again!) to fit the current political situation in Jerusalem, and refers to the Syrian Antiochus IV who called himself Epi-Phanes (the "Revealer") and who had outlawed Judaeism (circumcision and kashrut dietary laws and sacrifices to YHWH) in Palestine having set up an ithyphallic statue of Zeus/Jupiter in the Debir of the 2nd Temple (i.e. the holy of holies).

But the phrase ABOMINATION WHICH CAUSES DESOLATION has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the recent Hurricane Katrina event but everything to do with the setting up a ritually unclean ithyphallic statue in the Debir of the 2nd temple of YHWH by Antiochus IV-----

an event in Daniel which R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("Jeezuzz") refers in his own time to the Invasion of Pompey the Roman General in BC 63 (100 years AFTER Channukkah when the Temple was recaptured by the Macabbees) and to another Abomination which he saw coming, [or at least the earliest Christian community living around the time of the Jewish War of AD 66-72 placed into the mouth of their hero prophet Iesous !] link back to the prophecies of the End in the book of Daniel as a sign that the End Times for Israel as a nation were fast approaching...

("when you see the Abomination of Desolation SPOKEN OF BY THE PROPHET DANIEL standing in the place where it MUST NOT STAND, then let he who is in JUDAEA flee to the mountains...and pray that it does not happen on a Sabbath when steps must be counted, or in the Winter, as Matthew adds):

all of which seems to be a thinly veiled reference to the destruction of the 2nd Temple of Herod by the Roman Army in AD 70 when "the stars of heaven will fall and the moon will no longer give her light..." ("stars" and "the moon" were 2nd temple ornaments) and "not one stone will be laid upon another which will not be cast down to the ground..."

Backing up a little, the term ABOMINATION WHICH CAUSES DESOLATION itself is problematic in English:

Some scholars have preferred to render the second word "shômem" with an abstraction meaning something like "general desolation", whereas others prefer to treat it as a more concrete historical person e.g. , "the Ravager", or even treat it as a participial meaning something like "he that makes desolate in war"--referring to Antiochus IV who was called The Ravager among other epithets and terms of endearment !

It has been suggested by some of late that the phrase "shíqqûç shômem" (the abomination which causes desolation" ) may in fact be a evasive method of referring to the cultic phrase (which would naturally be an "abomination" to the Israelite Yahwistic cult among Jerusalem's Zadokite temple priests) :

"Bá` ál shámáyîm" (Lord (Baal) of heaven),

a title found in Phoenician and Aramaic inscriptions, and the semitic equivalent of the Greek Zeus, (Zu-Piter or Jupiter) but modified in the book of Daniel through Jewish aversion for directly naming a foreign "abominable" Pagan deity--which Antiochus IV himself identified with, having built temples to himself while he was still alive (like the Roman Emperor Tiberius and others like Nero after him ) --and who used such titles in his own worship, among more than 30 other titles similar to it.

Either way, the Heb. "Shiqquq-shomem" in Daniel is a later and rare phrase in Hebrew but clearly contains the idea of "Ritual Abomination" or "cultic contamination with foreign deities"---the idea for this in older paleo-Hebrew writings is typically Heb. ="To'qebah", such as we find in the book of Leveticus =meaning "ritually hateful/ disgusting" i.e. pagan cult object or unclean ritually pagan action' etc.) for example....

e.g. it is an ABOMINATION for an Egyptian to eat with an Israelite slave, Gen 34, or someone mixing cotton and linen in the same outfit (Leveticus etc) , or a male Israelite shaving his forelocks, or someone sleeping with his own aunt, like Moses' father Amram did etc. these are all RITUAL abominations which can get you stoned according to the Torah) etc.

Queenie, why are you following CyberZee here like the blind following the blind and think you can just add words to the text, like "baffling wind" which has absolutely nothing to do with anything ref: the ABOMINATION of DESOLATION...

It is clear from your other jejune postings that your Hebrew and Aramaic (even after "28 years of study") are not very much up to snuff especially if you REALLY think the plural of MALACH is "MALAKS" which is what you wrote in an earlier posting--instead of the correct Heb. plural masculine MALACHIM)...

One would have thought your "spirit guides" or whoever else seems to be possessing/confusing your mind would have guided you in the right direction here.

Again..... I have to repeat myself:

Both of you are going to have to stop all this claiming that you are somehow magically inspired by whatever presence to "know" things that you clearly do not know or fully understand--and repeatedly claiming that you possess some magic "inspiration" by some murderous local clan god like YHWH is portrayed again and again in the Torah etc. will only make your arguments appear even more ridiculous.

CyberZee, you are going to have to try and make more epistemogically coherent sense on these threads if you want anyone with half a brain to listen to you...!

Katrina and Baffling Wind indeed !





[edit on 18-9-2005 by NEOAMADEUS]

[edit on 18-9-2005 by NEOAMADEUS]

Queenie, I can Help with the Abomination of Desolation a little ..

That is talking about the 2nd Temple(Or the New Temple) the is suppose to built again in Jerusalem during the time of the anti Christ and after the First 3 1/2 years, He (The anti Christ) will move in to the Temple and pronounce that HE is the Christ and Lord and for the Whole world to warship him and obey.

Now for the sake of me ,I am unable to tell you were it is to where the people of Israel it to go to at that time so not to warship and to be were his wrath will not reach them when is go after the Jews so to destroy them.

OK It is Peta where they will go so to be saved.....

[edit on 06/29/2005 by jfdarby]

You've got a point. Ever wondered why those that question the Bible generally seem to know a lot, lot more about it than those that accept it unconditionally?

I've always wondered why one needs to know a book to know thy father.

Originally posted by cyberzee
Abomination of desolation...NOW!!!!

.......then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:.......

There is no place, recognized in the world or the UN, of a place or State
called "Judaea".

One could make some connections to present day Israel & West Bank & Gaza Strip with areas of the equally ancient 'Palestine'....but that would
essentially circumvent the 'prophetic words', as prophecy is to be true and accurate and divinely factual.....and if there is no Judaea this present day, then this scripture prophecy is not about NOW or today!!

ergo Louisiana-Mississippi-Alabama & New Orleans, Hurricane Katrina cannot be in anyways connected to Daniels' vision(s)

..........

as far as jfdarby quote:

Now for the sake of me, I am unable to tell you where it is to where the people of Israel is to go at that time so not to warship and to be where his wrath will not reach then when is go after the Jews so to destroy them.

OK It is Peta where they will go to be saved...

indeed it is...Peta or Petra...
look up the 'Underground Cities in Turkey' on your desired search engine.
see how the early cult of christians inhabited these subterrainian caves
to escape romans, muslims, etc....some of us think that these underground cities will 'save' the remnant of flesh at the end-of-age cataclysms.

peace

Originally posted by cyberzee
Lk 21: [25] And there shall be signs in the sun=FLARES, and in the moon=PLASMA (BLOOD) RADIATION, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;= KATRINA
[26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken= VIA HAARP vibrations .

WOE! So now what? Well read this. GOD IS AWESOME!!!!

Dan. 12: [11] And from the time that the daily =(Heb. 8548; continual employment /JOBS) sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination= due to Katrina that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

How many jobs were lost due to katrina? 40,000

See you in 3 1/2 years!!! Zee

This is an amazing abuse of the Bible. You should write a book and cash in. The current round of end-times hysteria fueled by the year 2000 will fade soon, so don't wait too long.

Is Vanderbilt going 3-0 in football a sign of the end times? I'm sure that could be found somewhere in the Bible also if one looked hard enough.

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
QueenieAnne: unlike your claim that ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION is translated faithfully (i.e. exactly the same) from the obscure phrase of the Heb OT in Daneil into the Greek of the LXX and the later Koine Greek NT and the gospels, these translations"

I don't know what you hope to accomplish--it seems rather a vain pursuit to post a reply to something another has written, to which you have paid only the most miniscule bit of attention. It would be more profitable to read the post and disregard the name (you can't seem to even apply care to that small detail, anyway) of the poster, instead of in the reverse manner--disregarding the actual post in favor of lame attacks on the poster.

OK ... time for school, children !...(you must have been out sick that day)

I hope such comments do you some good, because I must confess, your wit (?) does nothing for me.

First off, you might as well know that the book of Daniel from whence this peculiar quotation of yours is sewn together,

Actually, what I do know, which is easily verified, is that there is a pointed reference to this very passage in the 9th chapter of Daniel found in the Melchizedek fragments found in Qumran cave 11--and what I've found to be apparent in all the discord concerning the book of Daniel is primarily focused on a total misinterpretation of the book's purpose and theme (which is not as disjointed as some would have the world to believe, regardless of it's 'split personality' as far as linguistics go); both on the part of christian 'theology' and modern jewish scholarship. Both factions deny much and dig for other things they wish to be true, and neither is getting even close to meeting in the middle.

The use of the word translated abomination in Daniel 9, shiqquts, is not used in the manner in which you cite--it is derived from sheqets--which is found most often in the book of Leviticus, as well as a significant passages in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and of course, in Daniel. It is indicative of the worst kind of 'idolatrous' practice--the most damaging of those things which render a soul 'unclean.' There is a far greater significance in the word used in the book of Daniel than you mention, and from what I understand, the convenient assignment of it's meaning to the defiling-of- the-altar incident at the beginning of the Hasmonaean dynasty by Antiochus Epiphanes is just as misguided and misleading as the popular christian ideology pertaining to the 'Seventy Weeks'.

But the phrase ABOMINATION WHICH CAUSES DESOLATION has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the recent Hurricane Katrina event but everything to do with the setting up a ritually unclean ithyphallic statue in the Debir of the 2nd temple of YHWH by Antiochus IV-----

We agree on the first point you make here, but I have to disagree with your interpretation on the second point--there are too many discrepancies, which a critical examination of all circumstances involved prove to be a fatal blow to that theory.

Backing up a little, the term ABOMINATION WHICH CAUSES DESOLATION itself is problematic in English:

What you say is problematic is not related to language--it is more like a classic case of 'denial'--see Deuteronomy 28:37 for the unpleasant facts of which so many have tried to sweep under the rug, out of sight in hopes to put out of mind.

Some scholars have preferred to render the second word "shômem" with an abstraction meaning something like "general desolation", whereas others prefer to treat it as a more concrete historical person e.g. , "the Ravager", or even treat it as a participial meaning something like "he that makes desolate in war"--referring to Antiochus IV who was called The Ravager among other epithets and terms of endearment !

Further avoidance of the large amount of evidence available in other OT scripture which makes it clear just what this kind of 'desolation' is about--initiated by God in answer to transgressions--this desolation is not brought by the hand of a third party, it is the consequence of disobeying the laws given to Moses--namely in regard to the appointed Jubilee years, in the passage in Daniel 9. There was little or no adherence to this important observance which
was an efficient way to maintain social and financial equality in the nation of Israel--basically keeping the 'rich from getting richer and the poor from getting poorer' as is the natural tendency of all human-governed societies.

Either way, the Heb. "Shiqquq-shomem" in Daniel is a later and rare phrase in Hebrew but clearly contains the idea of "Ritual Abomination" or "cultic contamination with foreign deities"---the idea for this in older paleo-Hebrew writings is typically Heb. ="To'qebah", such as we find in the book of Leveticus =meaning "ritually hateful/ disgusting" i.e. pagan cult object or unclean ritually pagan action' etc.) for example....

It is more closely related to sheqets, as I mentioned above.

e.g. it is an ABOMINATION for an Egyptian to eat with an Israelite slave, Gen 34, or someone mixing cotton and linen in the same outfit (Leveticus etc) , or a male Israelite shaving his forelocks, or someone sleeping with his own aunt, like Moses' father Amram did etc. these are all RITUAL abominations which can get you stoned according to the Torah) etc.

But sheqets is the eating of that which makes a soul unclean as well as becoming unclean through contact of 'filthy' idolatrous objects. It has a more severe connotation than toqebah--which is more of a 'disgusting' or morally abhorrent practice or tradition while the words derived from sheqets have to do with something that is filthy and unclean.

Queenie, why are you following CyberZee here like the blind following the blind and think you can just add words to the text, like "baffling wind" which has absolutely nothing to do with anything ref: the ABOMINATION of DESOLATION...

Please refrain from calling me 'queenie.' If you have a problem with my user name, then just call me ‘Ann.’

It is clear from your other jejune postings that your Hebrew and Aramaic (even after "28 years of study")

Once again, your severe lack of attentiveness or even simple courtesy is difficult to ignore--not once did I even infer that those 28 years of study were at all devoted to linguistics of any type--Hebrew is the only one I claimed any knowledge of, anyway--plainly stating that I am at a total loss with the Aramaic. That doesn’t diminish what I’ve gained in those 28 years, because language is just one facet. Your knowledge of language may be something you value greatly, but when counterbalanced only with the narrow scope of predictable opinion you have so far demonstrated it’s not surprising you supplement your argument with an air of condescension—which, BTW, is totally wasted on me in regard to potential for intimidation; you’d get much farther by actually participating in the discussion. That activity consists of both receiving and contributing to the topic at hand rather than making pointless jabs directed at individuals—and I’m not speaking of myself, in this case—it’s nothing to me, but I must speak up on behalf of CyberZee: regardless of anyone’s thoughts and opinions regarding the validity of the opening post of this thread, it was still something CyberZee was obviously compelled to share, for better or worse. It is for the sake of that offering alone that none of us should feel justified in making snide remarks of any personal nature—no matter where we stand or what we think we know—myself included.

are not very much up to snuff especially if you REALLY think the plural of MALACH is "MALAKS" which is what you wrote in an earlier posting--instead of the correct Heb. plural masculine MALACHIM)...

No, I didn’t really think that the plural in Hebrew would be based on the rules of English—but since I couldn’t think of the right word, I used it anyway. I’m actually glad I did, though-- since maybe now we can actually have some sort of profitable discussion.

Both of you are going to have to stop all this claiming that you are somehow magically inspired by whatever presence to "know" things that you clearly do not know or fully understand--and repeatedly claiming that you possess some magic "inspiration" by some murderous local clan god like YHWH is portrayed again and again in the Torah etc. will only make your arguments appear even more ridiculous.

Surely you jest.

CyberZee, you are going to have to try and make more epistemogically coherent sense on these threads if you want anyone with half a brain to listen to you...!

Did you mean ’epistemological’ or ‘epistemically?’

[edited "code" format into "quote" format in an attempt to fix page formating -nygdan]

[edit on 20-9-2005 by Nygdan]

Speaking of Petra....

if you've never seen any pictures...



This place is unreal! Totally blew my mind the first time I saw pictures! It is said that this is 'Sela' as mentioned in the bible. This is the country where Edom was located and Aaron's tomb is nearby, too. (Aaron who is the brother of Moses, the same one who was appointed to begin the Levitical priesthood). Check out the link below--there's more pictures and info if you're interested.



(Images are from Atlas Tours Photo Gallery
Copyright Atlas Travel and Tourist Agency, All rights reserved.)

Originally posted by queenannie38
Speaking of Petra....

if you've never seen any pictures...

Oh that Petra. I thought you were talking about this one...

Originally posted by queenannie38
This is the country where Edom was located and Aaron's tomb is nearby, too. (Aaron who is the brother of Moses, the same one who was appointed to begin the Levitical priesthood).

The one who went into sculpture while his brother was off mountaneering?

And to read the Old Testament, God is nothing more than the deity of a barbarian clan. The Jews were several steps behind many of their neighbours when it comes to "civilisation". Someon else will have to do the research or find the quotes, but the example is from a marriage.

A daughter of the clan was married to the son of another, religiously different, clan. There was a rape, or a dishonour of some kind, the husband's clan paid compensation, punished the guilty, a perfect example of modern world politics.

The Jews accepted these offerings of appeasement for the anger publicly and then slaughtered the whole tribe when their guard was down.

Barbarians who weren't developed enough to understand...

You're referring to the story of when Simeon and Levi (sons of Jacob) murdered the clan of the man who had fallen in love with their one sister, Dinah. It is found in Genesis chapter 34.

And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land. And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her. And his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel. And Shechem spake unto his father Hamor, saying, Get me this damsel to wife.
--Genesis 34:1-4 KJV

Shechem slept with Dinah--before marrying her--but according to the laws back then, did the 'right thing' and desired to marry her. And he went about the thing the accepted way, as well.

His father went to talk to Dinah's father, Jacob, to arrange the marriage in a way acceptable to all parties involved:

And Jacob heard that he had defiled Dinah his daughter: now his sons were with his cattle in the field: and Jacob held his peace until they were come. And Hamor the father of Shechem went out unto Jacob to commune with him. And the sons of Jacob came out of the field when they heard it: and the men were grieved, and they were very wroth, because he had wrought folly in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter; which thing ought not to be done. And Hamor communed with them, saying, The soul of my son Shechem longeth for your daughter: I pray you give her him to wife.
--Genesis 34:5-8 KJV

But Jacob didn't give an answer, for whatever reason, instead, the father, Hamor, ended up talking with Dinah's brothers about it. And they took it upon themselves to handle it in the way they thought was right, and set out to deceive Hamor's people toward destruction. This is not the first time these guys got up to such chicanery--they did something devious to their own brother, Joseph, later on in Genesis.

At any rate, they laid out the conditions according to their laws, which was in regard to circumcision, which Hamor and his son agreed to--it says that Shechem was the most honorable among Hamor's sons, and therefore did what was right. The whole clan, did, in fact. They complied with the law which was observed by the clan of Israel (Jacob).

But, Simeon and Levi waited until they were all laid up from their surgical ordeals, and attacked and destroyed the entire clan of Hamor, and took their sister away from her rightful husband. She would not have been considered defiled any more, if she had been left alone--nothing was amiss according to the law given to Israel by God.

That is, until Simeon and Levi murdered them all. God didn't tell them to do this, and in fact, Jacob was quite displeased:

And Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites: and I being few in number, they shall gather themselves together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house.
And they said, Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?
--Genesis 34:30-31 KJV

Jacob was displeased because his sons did not honor themselves, him, or the family name in general, and certainly they did not honor God's name in the least--which was a direct reflection of their example shown to the surrounding peoples. They were foolish and did what they thought was right, not what God would have had them do--because they acted in anger with intention for unjust vengeance as well as unfair and dishonest dealings with other men.

In the end, it was they, themselves, that treated their sister like a harlot--if they would have left it alone, she would have been a rightful and legal wife to Shechem in the eyes of both clans as well as God. And all men would have lived in honor amidst one another, and God's name would have been esteemed as it should have been.

This folly of theirs had an enduring effect--for when Jacob was about to die, as was the custom, all his sons were gathered round him to receive their blessings according to their son-ship. But these 'blessings' were not all 'wine and roses'--they were truly meted out according to what had been done in the past--they each got what they deserved, so to speak. Simeon and Levi were not blessed for their cruelty, in any fashion:

Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations. O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall. Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.
--Genesis 49:5-7 KJV

Originally posted by spamandham
Oh that Petra. I thought you were talking about this one...

You would!

jk

But will 'your' Petra look as good as 'my' Petra when she's that old?

That looks like the story I'm remembering...thanks

Originally posted by queenannie38
The abomination (idolatry) of desolation (waste, destitution, emptiness) has been fulfilled once over--in that which took place in the Temple in Jerusalem from 30 AD to 70 AD.

bravo. saved me the time

are you a full or partial preterist?


also, just a little note to evangelicals....

Originally posted by cyberzee
[14] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains

IT FRIGGIN SAID JUDAEA! NOT AMERICA!!!!!!
the temple was there, the people were there and warned by Christ.
YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL. there is nothing more happening now than has happend before. there are always terrible things going on. just accept that we are like everyone before us and get on with your life.

unless of course John was wrong about there being many anti-christs and not just a singular incarnation which indicates that IT HAS BEEN THE LAST DAYS FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS!

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

maybe these are the LAST last days.

ooh, and i can't wait for the LAST LAST... not kidding anymore... last days.

daved